Originally posted by Taven
Definitely, the order's pretty misplaced actually, what it should appear as would be:Anakin
Dooku
Mace
Yoda
DE Sidious
Ulic
Exar KunAnd he still falls at Ulic.
Mr. Nebaris, welcome back. Your opinions are still hopelessly flawed, I see.
And on topic, Luke makes it through to DE Sidious, by which time fatigue has set in and he falls to Palpatine.
Good God Lightsnake I don't know if it's out of love or loneliness or whatever but responding to absolutely everything I say really is quite unnecessary, and if you're really that desperate to talk to someone, Leland Chee's only a mailbox away.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, look, fanboyism and stupidity. From you, I'm not surprised
Really Lightsnake, considering the fact that you literally burst into tears as soon as Advent started being slightly condescending with you, I thought you were at least someone I could have a serious discussion with without it getting so hostile. It’s been a while since we’ve spoken, and I was hoping we could go back to being MSN buddies. I guess not.
Considering Luke uses a style just as unfamiliar
Considering Luke received starting training in the traditional seven forms by Yoda, and further training later on, again in the traditional forms (that date back to Exar‘s time) via the Jedi Archive transport, all I have to say is: Ups!! You Lose!!!
and Exar got his style and weapon from a holocron, WRONG!
Out of Universe established fact trumps in-universe bullshit, Wrohdg[/quotfe]jmd!!
Against...Sylvar. Someone with no great feats whatsoever besides 'kill some Massassi.' WOW!
Your lame and unoriginal attempts at sarcasm don’t refute well made arguments. The fact of the matter is that they were Force Sensitive descendants of the Ancient Sith, alchemically enhanced by Naga Sadow (arguably the greatest alchemist of the entire mythos) to guard his secrets and combat Jedi. They were directly stated to be able to use the Force with skill and precision. Defeating three of them in seconds without the reach or cutting power of a lightsaber is highly impressive, and you attempting to pass it off as an average feat is really quite sad.
As opposed to the guy who decimates an army of elite warriors with notihng more than saber ability
Yeah Lightsnake, we all know large blocks of text generally tire you out and send you off to sleep, but please, try to listen and pay attention. And if you can’t do it for yourself, do it for me. Nobody’s comparing Luke to Sylvar, or Ulic "Cut off from the Force, out of practise, physically lacking, holding back" Qel Droma. We’re comparing Luke to Ulic “In Practise, Master Swordsman, Dark Side Driven, Powerful Sith Lord, Amulet Wielding, Dark Side Rippling, Fighting To Kill, Physically solid" Qel-Droma.” And the comparison’s not a good one for Luke.
Sylvar was an 'elite' Jedi. He still uses this argument.
He lists established facts, yes. She completely outclasses fellow skilled and powerful Force Users in the form of the alchemically created Massassi, as well as the likes of Oss Wilum (when she able to completely shield her presence from him and sneak up behind him) who himself had been handpicked for numerous elite Jedi missions. I’d say that qualifies her as elite, though if you’re going to argue semantics don’t bother.
Someone holding off-not defeating,
In part out of choice, as evident by the fact that he was purely out to block her attacks.
but blocking a few blows from- and running away from
Please learn to not make shit up.
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=858&size=M&page=094
He competed with her in numerous saber locks, was able to go toe to toe with her and defend himself for most of the battle, and was only seen to be running away once (in a manner similar to when Darth Maul runs away from Obi-Wan in Episode One to regain his composure) throughout the entire fight.
a mindless berserker
That she was a mindless berserker remains completely unsupported, and even if she was, it’s not like Ulic would have exploited it. He was fully on the defence, out of choice. Her attacking wildly or mindlessly would only truly work against her if he was willing to exploit it by going on the offence. He didn't. That being said, attacking with the darkside, whether mindless or not, would only ever add to the ferocity of her offence, which in itself would add to the difficulty in defending against her. And Ulic did it remarkably. For a guy of his position it speaks wonders for his natural gift with a lightsaber.
outclasses the guy moving so fast he can't even be seen
Again, stay awake, and perhaps have a red bull or two. We’re not comparing Redemption Ulic Qel-Droma to NJO Luke Skywalker, just like we’re not comparing ANH Luke Skywalker to DLotS Ulic Qel-Droma. Your Strawmans are as ridiculous as they come.
Lying idiot.
Please. If all you’re going to add to your ridiculously fallacious arguments are nothing but unloving words, at least do it well, and come up with some new material, because you’re making Sexy look like a creative genius here.
Luke was able to take on Palpatine, described as a master of the saber and as of DE was described as 'even more skilled with a Jedi lightsaber' than he was with the Force. Just stated to be considerable indeed.
1. Luke under those situations was not fighting under his own level of ability, but in a rare state of being completely one with the Force: a state that can’t be substantiated and quantified with respect to his regular level of ability, and as such, no comparison can be formed to his anomalous state in his fight with Palpatine in DE and his regular level of ability in the NJO series. No point can be made.
2. That he was more skilled with the lightsaber than the Force really doesn't mean much at this point. I mean sure, he was capable of a bit of power, but his control of the Force isn't shown to be anything approaching considerable at that point.
Translation: I can't argue that, so let's downplay Luke elsewhere!
I would follow in suite, but I don’t possess a Wastemanulator.
And?
Owning you is getting boring?
You just admitted Luke>him in the Force by far
“Greater by no small margin” =/= “Greater by far.”
...You big coward!
All but the second accomplished with no skill or power of his own. And?
The first, done via his own power amplified by the amulets. Whether the amulets added power is naturally his or not is irrelevant. It’s something he’d possess under the conditions of this fight.
The second (by far the greatest display of power), as I said, done effortlessly in an instant, under his own amulet aided level of power.
The third, done -- again -- under his own amulet aided level of power, to power the Sith power tools that would be used to power up the ritual that would tear his spirit from his mortal body.
Yeah, bullshit.
Luke's prowess alone allowed him to defeat five Yuuzhan Vong Slayers at once.
Fallacy of Division. It was his Force prowess + technical ability + natural human traits that allowed him to defeat them. What is true for a whole is not necessarily true for one of its parts.
Kyp Durron couldn't even take one.
That’s great for Luke, and not so great for Kyp. Now substantiate Kyp’s level of ability, and then get back to me. Also, try and hold yourself back from these One Sided Assessment Fallacies. Kyp didn’t even know what a Slayer was by the time he fought one, nor was he able to sense it through the Force, an enormous disadvantage that Luke didn't possess. The Jedi later on developed the ability to sense the Vong through the Force, rendering their greatest advantage moot when Luke defeated those five slayer. He was also having his powers amplified by being in a powerful Force meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time. Something that again, can’t be quantified, meaning no comparison can be drawn between Luke under those conditions to Luke under his regular level of ability. Meaning, again, no point can be made.
So...in effect, with an opponent he couldn't perceive in the Force, he takes on five elites and wins. And then kills Shimrra. While injured.
Please Lightsnake, you know that I’m aware that Luke and the Jedi had found out how to sense the Vong through the Force by the time of that battle, and you know I’m gonna call you out on this. Please, lying’s one thing, doing it in a retarded manner is another.
And had Corran Horn realizing that all Corran would be good for in combat would be to just hold Luke's cloak for him.
1. Don’t rely on obviously hyperbolic fallible third party statements.
2. Quantify and substantiate Corran Horn’s level of ability, or drop the point.
And defeat Welk with nothing but ease when Welk could defeat Saba without much trouble.
Oh really? He defeated Welk who could defeat Saba who could defeat X who could defeat Y? Substantiate all of those people (including X and Y) or go home.
Also, this is NJO Luke Skywalker we’re talking about here, not DN Luke Skywalker. Pay attention.
And, oh, yes, defeating Jacen in saber combat. Jacen 'I can take out Kyle Katarn with three other Jedi helping him.'
Jacen hardly defeated Kyle Katarn through his duelling ability, but via a surprise Force manoeuvre, so this amounts to nothing but irrelevant misdirection. Not to mention that Luke initiated combat with Jacen with a surprise attack. Please, list all of the facts.
Also, this is NJO Luke Skywalker we’re talking about here, not LotF Luke Skywalker. Pay attention.
Yawn.
I know it’s hard, but try and stay awake. Also, try not to yawn without putting your hand over your mouth: it’s disgusting.
Bullshit. Luke uses a style they're just as unfamiliar against as he had to build his from ground up.
No, he built his form up from early training with Yoda and further training from the moving Jedi Archives.
Luke can also see shatterpoints,
As can most Force Users, as Mace Windu notes early on in Shatterpoint.
has demonstrated superior speed, strength, force aptitude
Sure he has, but relying on purely what we’ve seen, and ignoring what we can gauge out of other facts will naturally lead you to a poor conclusion.
and skill
Sure, in a world where Fallacy of Division were for winners rather than wastemen.
and that all you can prove to Ulic's ability is "B-b-b-bit he held off a berserker without the Force!"
1. OK, I know I suggested those red bulls, but please, calm down, you’re scaring Sidi-Boy.
2. Your extremely unfunny attempts at passing off the skill Ulic displays during Redemptions amounts to nothing. As I’ve established, the display puts him right up there as far as how gifted he is with a lightsaber, and it puts him miles above Luke.
when Luke has defeated numerous skilled opponents and performed numerous feats with nothing more than saber ability alone.
Fallacy of Division.
With only one hand, his bad hand, Luke took out Lomi Plo with incredible ease.
LOL. Substantiate Lomi Plo, and then get back to me.
And again, NJO Luke, not DN Luke. Read.
In regards to greatest duelists, Caedus considered himself second only to Luke. Possibly in history.
Which speaks volumes considering how Caedus majored in Jedi History at Uni. Oh wait, no he didn't.
And again, NJO Luke, not LotF Luke.
Let's not forget Luke's defeat of Lumiya when he was serious,
1. NJO Luke, not LotF Luke.
2. Substantiate Lumiya.
or Welk,
Already mentioned him boozey.
or his matching of Palpatine,
Already addressed.
his slicing through hundreds of Yuuzhan Vong in the Sacred Precinct,
In a force meld, with the Vong's greatest advantage negated. Also, it's not like he fought hundreds at once; the Vong are melee combatants, he would have only ever had to face a few at any given time.
against the Jensaari,
I'm going to allow you to finish this thought.
his mastering Jar'Kai without any formal training...
LOL. Provide proof for this sh1t or go home.
Need I go on?
Yes, because so far, you haven't proven a thing. By virtue of my better argument, as it stands, Ulic has more going for him as a combatant.
Good to have you back. This village missed its idiot
Ah, Lightsnake think KMC's a village and that the Star Wars Versus Forum's his home.... That's.. cute, I guess.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You know you just could have copied and pasted the quote brackets and replied to what he typed instead of typing all his shit out again?And your opinion of Dooku's feats don't make them so either. That door swings both ways.
I am back and Darth Subjekt just what is my take because I do not believe you even know.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes. It doesn't make him better than Dooku, thoughI was using it as an example. Most old Republic Jedi would be helpless without the Force. Issue is, Ulic had a good ten years or so to adjust
Because people try to say it makes Ulic near unparalleled with a saber. If he was holding off, say, Qui-Gon, it'd be another story
A>B>C logic rarely works. It does, however, speak volumes for Dooku that he's well above them
The issue is with sabers alone, Dooku is pretty on par with Exar
The same goes for Dooku. Yes, Ulic's feat is impressive. I'd be more impressed, however, if he disarmed a calm Sylvar's attacks.
Lightsnake I am not going to answer all of your post because even though our opinions differ on certain things we both agree that Dooku and Exar are at least on equal terms.
My whole point was that Dooku in my opinion did not have enough feats to be declared better than Exar Kun as Master Crimzon has stated.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, Sora Bulq is a master of Vaapad, referred to as one of the greatest swordsmen in the Jedi Order's history. Dooku beat him while simultaneously fending off another powerful Jedi Master; and I daresay that Bulq would pose a challenge to either Ulic or Kun.As for Grievous, no, no single opponent he ever defeated is on par with Ulic or Kun. However, I cannot see either of them competing (and TOOLING) five powerful Jedi. Nor can I see them holding their own for as long as Grievous did against Mace. I cannot see them managing not to crumble underneath Grievous' twenty strikes per second. There are two real ways to fight Grievous- either hold your own against his strikes, which would require excellent defense. The CW Cartoon suggests that Dooku used this, as did Obi-Wan. Or, you can match him in offense and speed. Mace did that. You need to be as fast and as skilled as Mace, or to have Obi-Wan's prodigious defense, in order to compete with the General- as far as I know, neither Kun nor Ulic actually displayed that ability.
Force ability is what enables a person to move so efficently with a light saber. To say the Obi Wan had what Exar Kun or Ulic did not is incorrect in my opinion. How could Exar Kun or Ulic not move fast or proficient enough to defeat Grievous? Mace technique and force powers is what made him proficient with the light saber. The same with Obi Wan.
You give lest to Exar Kun and Ulic. These are people who were never defeat at their peak. Mace and Yoda are the only two in PT era that I know could say the same.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Any proof that Dooku was going all out? Plus, whether or not Yoda was going all out, if Doouk didn't block a saber strike, he'd die just the same. A I recall, while in a saber lock, he averted his attention to cause that pillar thing to fall on Anakin and OB1.When did Dooku join the darkside? Vaapad wouldn't have helped him against a lightside Dooku anyway.
Uh, that padawan Anakin did a lot better than a Jedi Knight Kenobi did, and when that Padawan is the Chosen One, I'd say it counts for a lot. OB1 went down rather quickly, and Anakin had Dooku visibly fatigued. Much tougher than Dooku anticipated.
A mere technicality. So he was able to separate them and take them both down. If he could do it as of ROTS, he could certainly do it to a lesser version of both Jedi.
Any proof that Dooku was going all out? Plus, whether or not Yoda was going all out, if Doouk didn't block a saber strike, he'd die just the same. A I recall, while in a saber lock, he averted his attention to cause that pillar thing to fall on Anakin and OB1.
Gideon already answered your post.
When did Dooku join the darkside? Vaapad wouldn't have helped him against a lightside Dooku anyway.
Since everyone is at there peak the question you did not answer is when did Dooku school Mace at there peaks. This would mean Dooku as a dark user and Mace as a light user.
Uh, that padawan Anakin did a lot better than a Jedi Knight Kenobi did, and when that Padawan is the Chosen One, I'd say it counts for a lot. OB1 went down rather quickly, and Anakin had Dooku visibly fatigued. Much tougher than Dooku anticipated.
What are you taking about? They both were done away with quickly. And Anakin did not last longer. Padawan does not equal Anakin as a Jedi. Much different story as we know.
A mere technicality. So he was able to separate them and take them both down. If he could do it as of ROTS, he could certainly do it to a lesser version of both Jedi.
We are taking about sabers and force used to enhance light saber skills. Dooku used the force in both encounters. In the last encouter he used distractions and force to separate. When it came down to saber to saber contact with Anakin he lost.
Originally posted by Taven
Good God Lightsnake I don't know if it's out of love or loneliness or whatever but responding to absolutely everything I say really is quite unnecessary, and if you're really that desperate to talk to someone, Leland Chee's only a mailbox away.
Really Lightsnake, considering the fact that you literally burst into tears as soon as Advent started being slightly condescending with you, I thought you were at least someone I could have a serious discussion with without it getting so hostile.
It’s been a while since we’ve spoken, and I was hoping we could go back to being MSN buddies. I guess not.
Considering Luke received starting training in the traditional seven forms by Yoda, and further training later on, again in the traditional forms (that date back to Exar‘s time) via the Jedi Archive transport, all I have to say is: Ups!! You Lose!!!
Out of Universe established fact trumps in-universe bullshit, Wrohdg[/quotfe]jmd!!
Your lame and unoriginal attempts at sarcasm don’t refute well made arguments. The fact of the matter is that they were Force Sensitive descendants of the Ancient Sith, alchemically enhanced by Naga Sadow (arguably the greatest alchemist of the entire mythos) to guard his secrets and combat Jedi.
They were directly stated to be able to use the Force with skill and precision.
Defeating three of them in seconds without the reach or cutting power of a lightsaber is highly impressive, and you attempting to pass it off as an average feat is really quite sad.
Yeah Lightsnake, we all know large blocks of text generally tire you out and send you off to sleep, but please, try to listen and pay attention. And if you can’t do it for yourself, do it for me. Nobody’s comparing Luke to Sylvar, or Ulic "Cut off from the Force, out of practise, physically lacking, holding back" Qel Droma.
Erm....only one of these is true. There's no reason to believe
We’re comparing Luke to Ulic “In Practise, Master Swordsman, Dark Side Driven, Powerful Sith Lord, Amulet Wielding, Dark Side Rippling, Fighting To Kill, Physically solid" Qel-Droma.” And the comparison’s not a good one for Luke.
He lists established facts, yes. She completely outclasses fellow skilled and powerful Force Users in the form of the alchemically created Massassi, as well as the likes of Oss Wilum (when she able to completely shield her presence from him and sneak up behind him)
who himself had been handpicked for numerous elite Jedi missions.
I’d say that qualifies her as elite, though if you’re going to argue semantics don’t bother.
In part out of choice, as evident by the fact that he was purely out to block her attacks.
Please learn to not make shit up.
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=858&size=M&page=094He competed with her in numerous saber locks, was able to go toe to toe with her and defend himself for most of the battle, and was only seen to be running away once (in a manner similar to when Darth Maul runs away from Obi-Wan in Episode One to regain his composure) throughout the entire fight.
That she was a mindless berserker remains completely unsupported, and even if she was, it’s not like Ulic would have exploited it.
He was fully on the defence, out of choice. Her attacking wildly or mindlessly would only truly work against her if he was willing to exploit it by going on the offence. He didn't.
That being said, attacking with the darkside, whether mindless or not, would only ever add to the ferocity of her offence, which in itself would add to the difficulty in defending against her. And Ulic did it remarkably.
For a guy of his position it speaks wonders for his natural gift with a lightsaber.
Again, stay awake, and perhaps have a red bull or two. We’re not comparing Redemption Ulic Qel-Droma to NJO Luke Skywalker, just like we’re not comparing ANH Luke Skywalker to DLotS Ulic Qel-Droma. Your Strawmans are as ridiculous as they come.
Please. If all you’re going to add to your ridiculously fallacious arguments are nothing but unloving words, at least do it well, and come up with some new material, because you’re making Sexy look like a creative genius here.
1. Luke under those situations was not fighting under his own level of ability, but in a rare state of being completely one with the Force: a state that can’t be substantiated and quantified with respect to his regular level of ability, and as such, no comparison can be formed to his anomalous state in his fight with Palpatine in DE and his regular level of ability in the NJO series. No point can be made.
2. That he was more skilled with the lightsaber than the Force really doesn't mean much at this point.
I mean sure, he was capable of a bit of power, but his control of the Force isn't shown to be anything approaching considerable at that point.
“Greater by no small margin” =/= “Greater by far.”
The first, done via his own power amplified by the amulets.
Whether the amulets added power is naturally his or not is irrelevant. It’s something he’d possess under the conditions of this fight.
The second (by far the greatest display of power), as I said, done effortlessly in an instant, under his own amulet aided level of power.
The third, done -- again -- under his own amulet aided level of power, to power the Sith power tools that would be used to power up the ritual that would tear his spirit from his mortal body.
Originally posted by Taven
[B]Fallacy of Division. It was his Force prowess + technical ability + natural human traits that allowed him to defeat them. What is true for a whole is not necessarily true for one of its parts.
That’s great for Luke, and not so great for Kyp. Now substantiate Kyp’s level of ability, and then get back to me. Also, try and hold yourself back from these One Sided Assessmen
t Fallacies. Kyp didn’t even know what a Slayer was by the time he fought one, nor was he able to sense it through the Force, an enormous disadvantage that Luke didn't possess.
The Jedi later on developed the ability to sense the Vong through the Force, rendering their greatest advantage moot when Luke defeated those five slayer.
He was also having his powers amplified by being in a powerful Force meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time.
Something that again, can’t be quantified, meaning no comparison can be drawn between Luke under those conditions to Luke under his regular level of ability. Meaning, again, no point can be made.
Please Lightsnake, you know that I’m aware that Luke and the Jedi had found out how to sense the Vong through the Force by the time of that battle, and you know I’m gonna call you out on this. Please, lying’s one thing, doing it in a retarded manner is another.
1. Don’t rely on obviously hyperbolic fallible third party statements.
2. Quantify and substantiate Corran Horn’s level of ability, or drop the point.
Oh really? He defeated Welk who could defeat Saba who could defeat X who could defeat Y? Substantiate all of those people (including X and Y) or go home.
Also, this is NJO Luke Skywalker we’re talking about here, not DN Luke Skywalker. Pay attention.
Jacen hardly defeated Kyle Katarn through his duelling ability, but via a surprise Force manoeuvre, so this amounts to nothing but irrelevant misdirection.
Not to mention that Luke initiated combat with Jacen with a surprise attack. Please, list all of the facts.
Also, this is NJO Luke Skywalker we’re talking about here, not LotF Luke Skywalker. Pay attention.
No, he built his form up from early training with Yoda and further training from the moving Jedi Archives.
As can most Force Users, as Mace Windu notes early on in Shatterpoint.
Sure he has, but relying on purely what we’ve seen, and ignoring what we can gauge out of other facts will naturally lead you to a poor conclusion.
Sure, in a world where Fallacy of Division were for winners rather than wastemen.
2. Your extremely unfunny attempts at passing off the skill Ulic displays during Redemptions amounts to nothing.
l
As I’ve established, the display puts him right up there as far as how gifted he is with a lightsaber, and it puts him miles above Luke.
Fallacy of Division.
LOL. Substantiate Lomi Plo, and then get back to me.
And again, NJO Luke, not DN Luke. Read.
Which speaks volumes considering how Caedus majored in Jedi History at Uni. Oh wait, no he didn't.
And again, NJO Luke, not LotF Luke.
1. NJO Luke, not LotF Luke.
2. Substantiate Lumiya.
Already mentioned him boozey.
Already addressed.
In a force meld, with the Vong's greatest advantage negated.
Also, it's not like he fought hundreds at once; the Vong are melee combatants, he would have only ever had to face a few at any given time.
I'm going to allow you to finish this thought.
LOL. Provide proof for this sh1t or go home.
Yes, because so far, you haven't proven a thing. By virtue of my better argument, as it stands, Ulic has more going for him as a combatant.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Gideon already answered your post.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Since everyone is at there peak the question you did not answer is when did Dooku school Mace at there peaks. This would mean Dooku as a dark user and Mace as a light user.
Originally posted by Kotor3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIWm1GSHJ2o
What are you taking about? They both were done away with quickly. And Anakin did not last longer. Padawan does not equal Anakin as a Jedi. Much different story as we know.
OB1 and Dooku fought from :44 to 1:18 - 34 seconds.
Anakin and Dooku fight from 1:28 to 2:19 - 51 seconds.
And Dooku was visibly tired or fatigued after fighting Anakin, and yes, Anakin did a better job than OB1.
Originally posted by Kotor3Listen to me. He beat them both in AoTC, and in RoTS, he was still doing well against them as a team, but when it was just him and Anakin and Anakin could use his real form, he killed Dooku. But losing to the Chosen One is nothing to be ashamed of.
We are taking about sabers and force used to enhance light saber skills. Dooku used the force in both encounters. In the last encouter he used distractions and force to separate. When it came down to saber to saber contact with Anakin he lost.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
That's nice. I didn't ask Gideon. I asked you. I wanted to hear what you had to say. But now I'm sure all I'll get is a hallowed echo of his posts.I'm not sure if English is your first language, and I don't mean this as an insult, but it's really difficult to read your posts due to incorrect or lack of punctuation. So if I don't answer something, it may just be because I don't get it. I'm saying, that id Vaapad is what puts Mace at his peak, then it wouldn't matter if Dooku was a lightsider, cause it wouldn't have the same effect. And the point is, that Dooku was one of the top duelist in the Jedi Order, and became even better as a Sith, his current incarnation. You've been trying to downplay Dooku's abilities, saying he's not up to Kun or Ulic's standard, and that's simply not the case.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIWm1GSHJ2o
OB1 and Dooku fought from :44 to 1:18 - 34 seconds.
Anakin and Dooku fight from 1:28 to 2:19 - 51 seconds.
And Dooku was visibly tired or fatigued after fighting Anakin, and yes, Anakin did a better job than OB1.
Listen to me. He beat them both in AoTC, and in RoTS, he was still doing well against them as a team, but when it was just him and Anakin and Anakin could use his real form, he killed Dooku. But losing to the Chosen One is nothing to be ashamed of.
If you had read some of my post it would be clear to you that I am not trying to belittle Dooku. What I am saying is the feats you have mention do not put him above Exar Kun by much or at all.
I am really tire of nip picking at responses that do not address the point of my original post. So I am only going to address your response concerning Dooku defeating Obi Wan and Anakin.
I gave examples and showed that Dooku never defeated Obi Wan and Anakin together but in one on one situations. Clear?
Also that he used not just saber combat but the force also along with distractions. Clear?
All you have said is that he did beat both of them. You have not addressed one response of mines only given your opinion.
I have to go so I will response later but the point I was making Darth Subjekt is that I did not understand why some people said that Dooku with a clear and definite statement was better than Exar Kun in saber combat. Some even said by much.
I do not agree and do not feel there is ample proof to say so.
If you decide to respond please remember that his subject is concerning saber combat and force used to enhance those skills. If you have an agrument as to how Dooku defeated Anakin and Obi Wan together in saber combat without distractions or force then I am glad to hear you agrument.