Originally posted by skywalker833Uh yea... the fight in the movie was all out and Mace still beat him. He couldn't beat him with the force until Anakin helped.
But this isn't just a saber duel. It is all out. And in the force category, sidious is far superior to Mace.
And that passage contradicts what we saw in the movies, therefore making it non canon.
When its describing everything that's getting destroyed in the office and all the ground that is covered in the office, then were see the movie and they make a bee line for the window... that's a contradiction.
But he never said that Mace didn't beat him. I'm sure it was all in his plan to get wtfpwned with his own lightning. Of course he was playing when Anakin was there, but it wasn't his intention to get kicked in the face and lose his lightsaber. Sorry.
I didn't say he intentionally lost the lightsaber duel, but he did intentionally lose the force duel. Seriously, GL's statement of Sidious faking his weakness- followed by the novel's assertion the Mace was getting overwhelmed, in a sequence that contradicts absolutely nothing in the movie except for a few lines of dialogue, proves that if Sidious had intended to, he would have blasted Mace sky-high with his force lightning.
Mace's win in the saber duel was legit, though. But I'm not fully convinced (and I've already explained why) if he will take a duel a 100% of the times.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
After he got a breather. Still doesn't change the fact that he tried, and it was blocked and forced back on to him. Same thing happened with Yoda. It seems Palpatine was maybe a little overconfident with his lighting that day.
For the record, Lucas said that Palpatine was feigning weakness during the lightning part. Windu wasn't. From an inferior position, Palpatine was overpowering Windu with the Force, Subjekt. Windu was "choking on ozone" from his own lightsaber.
That wasn't my point. I know that Palpatine is far more powerful that Mace. And I also know that it was ploy to turn Anakin. What I was saying, should anyone care to read, was that the novel's description of the fight contradicts what we see. THAT'S IT.
And if it helps people be able to change their tampons, change the "couldn't" in my post at the top of this page, to "didn't."
I think ROTS Sidious loses at 5, 6 and 7.
In my opinion, during the Sidious/Yoda fight in his office, he retreated only because he sensed he was in a lot of danger of being beaten. What's he do? Runs to a tiny Senate platform hundreds of feet in the air where Yoda's Ataru skills will suffer. Even then he needed the high ground to barely best the Jedi Grandmaster. On even footing, out of 10 battles, I think Yoda takes it 7/10 times.
I think Mace wins because of his Vaapad and Shatterpoint. When facing practically any dark side practitioner (except maybe Bane w/ orbalisks or Nihilus), that's going to be a lot to overcome. He's already beaten Sidious in the saber duel, and sent back his lightning. If he could have finished Windu off, I'm sure he would have - like he did the other three masters sent to arrest him. He couldn't. He loses.
Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the stormtroopers...numbers get him. *Shrug*
Yoda and Sidious are stated to be equals (by George Lucas). There's no use debating on this.
In addition, I've already explained previously why it clearly wasn't Sidious' intention to defeat Mace with that gout of lightning- Mace was getting overpowered and 'had no strength left'. He would've been defeated by that lightning if Sidious actually intended to kill him with it.
He did pull off a legit win in the sabers, though. That being said, I've also explained why I don't think he's gonna get a 10/10 in the saber combat.
The novelization actually said he didn't have any strength left? (I haven't read it - I have the movie, what's the point? lol) How would that be possible with him tapping Vaapad?
Sidious retreated from Yoda, and had not Yoda lost his saber (rather cheaply), I think many would agree he'd have won. On even footing in a large space, even more decisively. GL has no credibility with me anymore, especially after what I'm hearing pertaining to Starkiller almost besting Sidious. 🙁
Err... yeah, but he is the ultimate source and therefore what he says is automatically canon. Sidious = Yoda. In that fight, he played smarter and had a more effective offensive arsenal of weapons, and therefore, he won. The end.
And even Vaapad isn't limitless. According to Windu, the 'struggle was beyond' Vaapad.
Originally posted by Enyalus
In my opinion, during the Sidious/Yoda fight in his office, he retreated only because he sensed he was in a lot of danger of being beaten. What's he do? Runs to a tiny Senate platform hundreds of feet in the air where Yoda's Ataru skills will suffer. Even then he needed the high ground to barely best the Jedi Grandmaster. On even footing, out of 10 battles, I think Yoda takes it 7/10 times.
I disagree wholeheartedly and question your subscribed logic. If strategic retreats are totally indicative of inferiority, I would like to take the time to point out that Yoda, too, withdrew from the fight with the Emperor. Does that mean that he was weaker? Not necessarily. An alternative explanation that cannot be ruled out is an echo of Heath Ledger's Joker's statement to Batman in the Dark Knight; why would Palpatine want to risk his mastery and ownership of the galaxy in what amounted to a glorified "fist fight" with someone as powerful as Yoda? Palpatine didn't stop to play fair because his top priority is saving his ass, hence why he led Yoda all around the Rotunda trying to use the environment to gain an advantage. Palpatine disarmed Yoda and demonstrated equal strength in the Force. It could go either way.
I think Mace wins because of his Vaapad and Shatterpoint. When facing practically any dark side practitioner (except maybe Bane w/ orbalisks or Nihilus), that's going to be a lot to overcome. He's already beaten Sidious in the saber duel, and sent back his lightning. If he could have finished Windu off, I'm sure he would have - like he did the other three masters sent to arrest him. He couldn't. He loses.
Windu certainly wins the lightsaber engagement and quite possibly the all out fight. That said, others are correct: Palpatine's initial speed and reflexes are superior to Windu's, forcing Windu to "submerge" in Vaapad to cancel out the Sith Lord's superiority. Moreover, Vaapad itself wasn't superior to Sidious's bladework until Windu utilized the shatterpoint charism. Finally, despite being on his ass, a Jedi Master possessing an incredible physique and a superconducting loop hovering over him, and being assaulted by his own lightning, Palpatine still nearly forced Windu's lightsaber back upon him where the Jedi was "choking on ozone". And in the end? Palpatine was still feigning weakness. That is a considerable disparity in power.
Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the stormtroopers...numbers get him. *Shrug*
The leader of the Nightsisters, a powerful dark side magus named Gezetherion, was capable of destroying an entire company of Imperial stormtroopers in the Force simultaneously before they could attack her. Obi-Wan is only a threat in lightsaber combat. Palpatine could die, given the sheer numbers, but he is more than capable of disposing of Kenobi and laying waste to the troopers and then handling Anakin. Not that it would be easy, given how quick he'd have to pull it off.
Originally posted by Gideon
I disagree wholeheartedly and question your subscribed logic. If strategic retreats are totally indicative of inferiority, I would like to take the time to point out that Yoda, too, withdrew from the fight with the Emperor. Does that mean that he was weaker? Not necessarily. An alternative explanation that cannot be ruled out is an echo of Heath Ledger's Joker's statement to Batman in the Dark Knight; why would Palpatine want to risk his mastery and ownership of the galaxy in what amounted to a glorified "fist fight" with someone as powerful as Yoda? Palpatine didn't stop to play fair because his top priority is saving his ass, hence why he led Yoda all around the Rotunda trying to use the environment to gain an advantage. Palpatine disarmed Yoda and demonstrated equal strength in the Force. It could go either way.
Yoda withdrew from the fight because he lost his lightsaber and fell off the platform, totally ceding the high ground. Yes, he lost. Straight up. He couldn't defeat Sidious after losing both those things, and retreated.
But was he losing in Palpatine's office? I wouldn't say so. I would say he had an edge, however slight. And I believe that is why Sidious ran onto the rotunda, to negate Yoda's freedom of movement advantage. I know you're going to say, "but that was strategy, he was smart enough to not take any chances." And I agree. Definitely. But on an even surface, in a neutral area maybe, he wouldn't be able to do that - and in my opinion Sidious goes down. I do agree that they're equal in the force, but I give the edge to Yoda in saber skill. He's had more than 800 years to master them, afterall. Sidious' lightning blasting Yoda's saber out of his hand was not only total PIS, but was only possible because he was off balance and on the rotunda.
Windu certainly wins the lightsaber engagement and quite possibly the all out fight. That said, others are correct: Palpatine's initial speed and reflexes are superior to Windu's, forcing Windu to "submerge" in Vaapad to cancel out the Sith Lord's superiority. Moreover, Vaapad itself wasn't superior to Sidious's bladework until Windu utilized the shatterpoint charism. Finally, despite being on his ass, a Jedi Master possessing an incredible physique and a superconducting loop hovering over him, and being assaulted by his own lightning, Palpatine still nearly forced Windu's lightsaber back upon him where the Jedi was "choking on ozone". And in the end? Palpatine was still feigning weakness. That is a considerable disparity in power.
I, like anyone who has more than half a brain, fully realize that Palpatine is more powerful than Mace. By a considerable amount. You agree that the only reason he was able to best Sidious was due to Vaapad, and that's exactly what I said, "Mace wins because of his Vaapad and Shatterpoint." So, it seems we agree on that. 🙂