Originally posted by Darth Subjektit's my opinion that since maul was able to pretty much walk through force lightning with no ill-effect, he should be all but immune [or at least extremely resistent] to pert-near any force powers ventress might be able to muster. plus, ventress doesn't seem to use force powers when she is being attacked relentlessly with saber strikes [which is the technique maul seems to favor]. her loss to the non-force-sensitive gg showed us that much.
Why not? I guess it doesn't matter if we're agreeing on the winner, but I'm curious as to why you say that.
at any rate, maul takes every category.
Assaj came damn close to overpowering Master Fay right at the start of the Clone Wars with her Force Powers, who was described as absolutely legendary. She's later killed by a surprise attack from Ventress from behind, but not before giving all of her power to Obi-Wan so that he could escape, who proceeded to be in absolute awe of it. I wouldn't say that it would be a stretch to claim that her Force prowess was the best in the entire Order aside from Yoda.
I'd give her the Force battle for sure, and Maul hardly "walked" through the lightning attack; he simply resisted its effects for some duration of time (after being thrown to the floor and expressing severe pain), and maintained the strength to pick up his lightsaber and slice the Nightsister in half before she killed him.
Originally posted by Tavenall the lightning did was make maul [whom was in the process of leaping through the air] go down to his knees for a very short period of time. that's really it.
and Maul hardly "walked" through the lightning attack; he simply resisted its effects for some duration of time
Originally posted by Tavenhe was not "thrown" to the floor. he simply dropped to his knees upon being struck with the lightning, whilst in a midair leap. also, how did you come to the "severe pain" conclusion?
(after being thrown to the floor and expressing severe pain),
when the lightning first hit maul, all he exclaimed was "nngh". then in the following panel he uses the expression "nn".
point being, i'd like to know what your definition of "severe pain" is? because your definition, and mine, certainly seem to differ.
Originally posted by Taven"maintained the strength" makes it sound as though maul became very weak and barely managed to muster sufficient strength to kill her. but the fact is, he became quite angry when she was preaching to him of the dark side. at this point, maul simply stood up, and sliced her in half. he didn't seem to struggle with that 'task' in the slightest.
and maintained the strength to pick up his lightsaber and slice the Nightsister in half before she killed him.
and your saying "before she killed him" makes it sound like he was close to death from said attack. however, there is no real evidence of this. in fact, maul can be seen in the pages immediately following, and he appears to have suffered no ill-effect from teh lightning:
meh, i still believe that if maul were fresh [which he wasn't in the above instance] and enraged, he'd take ventress in all categories, handily.
Originally posted by Galan007
all the lightning did was make maul [whom was in the process of leaping through the air] go down to his knees for a very short period of time. that's really it.
1. That it was a very short amount of time is completely unsupported. No real indication of time is given in the panels.
2. Your response appears to be misplaced. I was simply pointing out that he hardly "walked through it" as some guy earlier claimed.
he was not "thrown" to the floor. he simply dropped to his knees upon being struck with the lightning, whilst in a midair leap.
He had leapt in midair, was being carried by his momentum, was hit by the lightning, and his motion changed course to the ground. Maybe the word "thrown" wasn't the best one to use, but the fact remains that the lightning stopped him in his tracks, and brought him to the ground, on his knees, in severe pain, which was the point that I was getting at. It was being implied that it had no real effect on him whatsoever.
and how did you come to the "extreme pain" conclusion?
That he was expressing it out loud, as evident by the "NNGH" and "NN?" A person rarely vocally expresses pain unless it's somewhat severe, that Maul had been trained since birth to resist pain and feed on it, and yet expresses it vocally would indicate that the lightning was effecting him substantially.
when the lightning first hit maul, all he exclaimed was meh "nngh". in the following panel he uses the expression "nn".
Exactly. He vocally expresses the pain, doing so at least twice, indicating it wasn't a sudden reaction. For someone who's trained to resist pain, clearly the effects were huge.
point being, i'd like to know what your definition of "extreme pain" is? because your definition, and mine, certainly seem to differ.
So you openly wish to argue semantics? Look past the exact meaning behind my words if you disagree with them, and the point's still there: that the lightning clearly affected Maul to a substantial degree, and it was hardly a walk in the park for him as some have claimed.
And I still maintain that the pain can accurately be described as "severe" given that he expresses it vocally numerous times.
"maintained the strength" makes it sound as though maul became very weak and barely managed to muster sufficient strength to kill her -
It sounds exactly as it's stated: he maintained the strength necessary to pick up his lightsaber and cut the Nightsister in half. Though, again, the fact that Maul's a being who was highly trained to resist the null effects of pain, and yet vocally expresses it would indicate that it was having an extremely great effect on him, if only in the moment.
when in fact he became enraged when she was preaching to him of the dark side. at this point, maul simply stood up, and sliced her in half. he didn't seem to struggle with that 'task' in the slightest.[/uote]That his body was still arched forwards and downwards, and his faced was grimaced, wih his teeth gritted, and evidence would point to the idea that he faced some level of difficulty in achieving the task.
[quote]and your saying "before she killed him" makes it sound like he was close to death from said attack.
Not at all, perhaps if I had said "just before" or something than maybe; my point of saying "before" was to highlight the fact that the lightning was having a great effect on him, and he was looking to die until he managed to pick up his lightsaber.
however, there is no real evidence of this. in fact, maul can be seen in following pages, and he appears to have suffered no ill-effect from teh lightning:
After the moment had passed, sure. It's not unknown for Force Users to eliminate such effects after the incidents that cause them in the first place pass.
meh, i still believe that if maul were fresh [which he wasn't in the above instance] and enraged, he'd take ventress in all categories, handily. [/B]
[all of the below is with respect to the Force battle]
So because he's capable of somewhat resisting the effects of a Nightsister with no real proven ability whatsoever, he's somehow gonna be able to take on someone who competes with legendary Jedi Masters with little to no real experience? By all means, you're entitled to your opinion, but you've in no way managed to adequately support it. That Assaj came within moments of overpowering a legendary Jedi Master with the Force, and then went on to improve in ability for the rest of the Clone Wars, which she played a very active part in, I don't see how someone like Maul has truly displayed anything that would put him on the same level.
Originally posted by Taventhe fact that there were only a few sentences, and no cut-aways to other happenings, tells me the duration was quite minimal.
1. That it was a very short amount of time is completely unsupported. No real indication of time is given in the panels.
Originally posted by Taventhe fact that maul was able to completely ignore the effects of the lightning and strike her down should tell you how irrevelent said "pain" may have been to him.
That he was expressing it out loud, as evident by the "NNGH" and "NN?" A person rarely vocally expresses pain unless it's somewhat severe, that Maul had been trained since birth to resist pain and feed on it, and yet expresses it vocally would indicate that the lightning was effecting him substantially.Exactly. He vocally expresses the pain, doing so at least twice, indicating it wasn't a sudden reaction. For someone who's trained to resist pain, clearly the effects were huge.
i still think saying he was in "severe" pain is over the top, but that's neither here nor there. overall, the lightning did little to nothing imo, as maul was able to simply shrug it off. meh.
Originally posted by Tavenin the pure force category, what has ventress done which leads you to think she'd be able to best maul? i'm not asking for you to tell me again that she competed with jedi masters, i'm asking for actual feats giving her the edge [as far as pure force is concerned].
So because he's capable of somewhat resisting the effects of a Nightsister with no real proven ability whatsoever, he's somehow gonna be able to take on someone who competes with legendary Jedi Masters with little to no real experience? By all means, you're entitled to your opinion, but you've in no way managed to adequately support it. That Assaj came within moments of overpowering a legendary Jedi Master with the Force, and then went on to improve in ability for the rest of the Clone Wars, which she played a very active part in, I don't see how someone like Maul has truly displayed anything that would put him on the same level.
btw, i didn't address the other responses because they would only get circular from here. no offense whatsoever was intended.
Well, that he was, as I've said, trained to resist the null effects of pain, and yet was vocally expressing it, more than once during the ordeal, and never demonstrates any real ease in picking up his lightsaber and slicing the Nightsister in two, would collectively indicate that it was having some substantial effect on him.
What I mentioned... was the feat. She got locked into a Force battle with a legendary Jedi Master, and came within moments of crushing her heart, as can be seen here: http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=889&size=M&page=068
And here's how powerful Fay actually was:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=889&size=M&page=071
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?view=889&size=M&page=072
She gets stabbed in the heart, and with the little power she has left, gives it to Obi-Wan so that he can escape, who ends up in absolute awe of her, even going so far as to suggest that she may have lived forever with her level of power.
And Assaj came within moments of overpowering her, and that was pretty early on in the war, she undoubtedly improved a lot beyond that point, so I really don't see how Maul even comes close.
Edit - That the panels don't elaborate on anything else doesn't deny that nothing else was happening, and with everything that's shown, no real indication is given as to exactly how much time is spent in between the dialogue. Point being, you can't judge time in comics by the quantity involved in the panels, you need narration that has bearing on it or you simply can't say anything about it.
Yeah, well agree to disagree then. It's also worth noting that Assaj has been able to rival some of Maul's greatest accomplishments with a saber throughout the Clone Wars (defeating Kit Fisto, who was renowned for being one of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order had ever known), and competing with Anakin and Obi-Wan numerous times) with no real defined mastery of the lightsaber whatsoever, whereas Maul has been stated to be a Master of Juyo, which required high end mastery of multiple forms. It would imply that her Force ability bridged the gap considerably.
Don't point out to Nebby how Fay wasn't actively resisting Ventress's attack and ended up owned anyways.
Also, don't point out how Ventress was never considered more powerful than one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the time, or in the Episode One journal, Maul was noted to be more powerful than any other Jedi. Save Yoda and MAYBE Mace
I still don't see how the lightning change his path of movement. It didn't knock him back or anything; just straight down, maybe. If you look at her, when she initially shocks him, her right leg was forward, then when showing Maul on his knees, he left leg is forward, indicating that she took a step back to widen the gap between them, possibly because Maul kept coming forward.
And if you get stung by a bee, you'll most likely say "ouch" or something to that effect. This is lightning... much more painful than say a bee sting. And you know in comics, when someone is in severe pain they usually caption them saying, "AAAARRGGGGHHHHH!!!!" or something like that. Hell, when I take a big shit, I'll grunt something that sounds like, "nn."
I know what your point was, that he did feel it, but like E here, I wouldn't say severe pain that was to the point where he had to struggle or muster all his remaining energy just to strike her down.
