Proof Jesus is imaginary

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Oh..so I was right then.

Originally posted by Devil King
No. This video isn't a matter of fact, it's a matter of faith. Faith is what plays the largest part in rebutting this video. People who don't subscribe to christianity will see this video a think "DUH!?" People with faith will think this video fails to address the reality they cling to so desperately. The end result of this video is that nothing was exposed or resolved. Besides, 2000 years of human faith aren't going to be so easily dismissed by a 5 minute viedo on youtube. I applaud the logic used by the creators of the video, I just disdain the effect they assumed they would have on anone who watched it.

Having watched it my reaction is that it requires an extremely shallow understanding of religion. Though perhaps that's intentional?

it should be no problem for a theist to dispute;

the bible is not literal

Originally posted by lord xyz

A funny video. Can a theist please explain why this is stupid?

Easy.
1. Saying you have faith is not having faith. There is a distinct line between the two.

2. In Matthew 18:18-20 he said that to the apostles because they already had alot of faith in him, they lived on the streets for him and relied on God to keep them fed, clothed and protected until the time comes when their faith was truly tested.

3. 2 People sitting together and asking god to appear for proof of his resurrection is an oxymoron. If they already had faith they would not need proof.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Easy.
1. Saying you have faith is not having faith. There is a distinct line between the two.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
2. In Matthew 18:18-20 he said that to the apostles because they already had alot of faith in him, they lived on the streets for him and relied on God to keep them fed, clothed and protected until the time comes when their faith was truly tested.

Does not mention the apostles, seems like it's refering to anyone actually.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
3. 2 People sitting together and asking god to appear for proof of his resurrection is an oxymoron. If they already had faith they would not need proof.

Originally posted by lord xyz
But what if you really do have faith and just want to see Jesus, if you have faith, you'd expect him to appear, since that's what you believe.

18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Does not mention the apostles, seems like it's refering to anyone actually.

Faith in what? If they had faith he'd answer their prayer, they would pray and expect it to be answered.

1. If someone had faith(or any miracle-working faith) to see Jesus himself, they'd feel confident enough to live on the streets, to put all their trust and faith in Gods hands. This doesn't mean you should if you doubt though.

2. Where two or three are gathered, God is there, that is correct. This doesn't mean God will do miracles for those who aren't confident in him, or those who think he's a liar.
He's technically saying that whenever the apostles ask something he'll be there and he'll grant their request.

3. If you don't believe he was resurrected, then how can you believe anything else in the Bible? How can you believe faith will do such things?

Faith in God, Faith in the Bible, Faith that it would happen. If anyone today had enough Faith to see Jesus, we would most likely see them on the news as miracle-workers, because they'd also be able to do many great miracles (which we don't see nowadays).

Going into the topic of faith gets a tad bit complex, trust me, i've thought alot about it.

Most believers today wouldn't dare attempt miracles in he prescence of non-believers, why? because they don't believe God would do it and they think they would get laughed at and made a fool of, that's lack of miracle-working faith.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
1. If someone had faith(or any miracle-working faith) to see Jesus himself, they'd feel confident enough to live on the streets, to put all their trust and faith in Gods hands. This doesn't mean you should if you doubt though.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
2. Where two or three are gathered, God is there, that is correct. This doesn't mean God will do miracles for those who aren't confident in him, or those who think he's a liar.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
He's technically saying that whenever the apostles ask something he'll be there and he'll grant their request.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
3. If you don't believe he was resurrected, then how can you believe anything else in the Bible? How can you believe faith will do such things?

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Faith in God, Faith in the Bible, Faith that it would happen. If anyone today had enough Faith to see Jesus, we would most likely see them on the news as miracle-workers, because they'd also be able to do many great miracles (which we don't see nowadays).

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Going into the topic of faith gets a tad bit complex, trust me, i've thought alot about it.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
Most believers today wouldn't dare attempt miracles in he prescence of non-believers, why? because they don't believe God would do it and they think they would get laughed at and made a fool of, that's lack of miracle-working faith.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Ah, good old Shakya on the voice of reason. I can count on you.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I said it first................ 🙁

Originally posted by lord xyz
So, let me ask you a question, why doesn't Jesus appear?

Not typically my style, but he does:
http://steppingstones.to/light/enlightening/inspiration/001.html

Literal interpretation of any sort of mythology is a very limited way of thinking, especially when the person speaking explains just about everything via metaphor. That's the sort of thing that should clue you in.

Originally posted by lord xyz
They are confident in him, they'd just like to see it, for reassurance, and to convert the non-believers etc.

If they don't believe in the first place having confidence in him would be impossible.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Doesn't mention apostles.

Okay, first of all it's in Matthew so . . . duh.

Secondly Matthew 18 begins with "At that time the disciples came to Jesus" and then he speaks uninterrupted for a long period of time in which he could only be addressing the apostles/disciples (unless he like broke the 4th wall or something).

george carlin had it right. religion is the biggest scam. invisibe man watches you 24 7, list of 10 things he doesn't want you to do. If you do, you'll burn in hell, but he loves you. And he needs money. He's all knowing all powerful, doesn't pay taxes, but always needs a little more. Ha!

Originally posted by lord xyz
I'm sorry. console

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not typically my style, but he does:
http://steppingstones.to/light/enlightening/inspiration/001.html

Literal interpretation of any sort of mythology is a very limited way of thinking, especially when the person speaking explains just about everything via metaphor. That's the sort of thing that should clue you in.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If they don't believe in the first place having confidence in him would be impossible.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Okay, first of all it's in Matthew so . . . duh.

Secondly Matthew 18 begins with "At that time the disciples came to Jesus" and then he speaks uninterrupted for a long period of time in which he could only be addressing the apostles/disciples (unless he like broke the 4th wall or something).

Originally posted by lord xyz
Why does he not appear to everyone?

*sigh* You didn't even click the link, did you?

Originally posted by lord xyz
They do believe, they believe he'll appear.

Not if they're atheists, which would be just about the only people that would take that video seriously.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Then that would apply to all of Matthew Luke Mark and John. Like the famous John 3:16 quote. Besides, I don't remember anywhere that says the disciples are to be treated dfifferently to everyone else, they're not gods or anything, they're just christians like the rest.

Second part is much more important. We know for a fact that Jesus was speaking specifically to the disciples in Matthew 18. As for the disciples being special, those are the guys that walked around with the son of God while he was preaching . . . 12 people out of billions through out history. That qualifies as pretty special.

There's also a massively gaping hole in the video's logic. The only thing it could even hope to prove is that Jesus lacks the power to spontaneously appear when called.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The only thing it could even hope to prove is that Jesus lacks the power to spontaneously appear when called.

or the desire...

Originally posted by lord xyz
Okay, I think the fact is that you know Jesus won't appear. You as in everyone. So, let me ask you a question, why doesn't Jesus appear?

They are confident in him, they'd just like to see it, for reassurance, and to convert the non-believers etc.
Doesn't mention apostles.

No, don't pray because you don't believe in the ressurection, pray because you believe he will appear like the Bible says.

This doesn't make sense to me grammatically. Please rephrase it.

K.

They don't do it because they think they'd get ridiculed? Damn. I guess their faith isn't that strong if they're willing to let infidels get to them.

1. He doesn't appear because they do not have enough faith. If they did, they'd naturally feel very excited about the fact he would appear to them, just as excited asif he already had appeared.

2. If they were confident, it would happen.

3. They were the people with him at the time. Anyway, if you beleive what he says then it doesn't matter, you would get what you ask anyway if you believed.

4. I meant that if you could see Jesus, you'd also be able to walk on water, and do many other miracles. If you ask to see Jesus and you can't already move a mountain, he ain't gonna appear.

5. It's true, my own Dad's always telling me "God sometimes says no" as excuse for why miracles don't happen today, then I ask "Then why doesn't he tell me no audibly?", from there dad usually doesn't have an appropriate reply according to scripture. My own dad lacks enough faith in Gods word.

Originally posted by xX-Angel-Xx
1. He doesn't appear because they do not have enough faith. If they did, they'd naturally feel very excited about the fact he would appear to them, just as excited asif he already had appeared.

2. If they were confident, it would happen.

3. They were the people with him at the time. Anyway, if you beleive what he says then it doesn't matter, you would get what you ask anyway if you believed.

4. I meant that if you could see Jesus, you'd also be able to walk on water, and do many other miracles. If you ask to see Jesus and you can't already move a mountain, he ain't gonna appear.

5. It's true, my own Dad's always telling me "God sometimes says no" as excuse for why miracles don't happen today, then I ask "Then why doesn't he tell me no audibly?", from there dad usually doesn't have an appropriate reply according to scripture. My own dad lacks enough faith in Gods word.

here is the problem with your argument:

if God is unable to reveal himself to someone of no faith, then he is not omnipotent.

Why are you arguing that God works like a vending machine anyways? There is no reason to think that God would perform such trivial gestures in the first place, thus no reason to justify the lack of Jesus' appearance.

Originally posted by inimalist
here is the problem with your argument:

if God is unable to reveal himself to someone of no faith, then he is not omnipotent.

Why are you arguing that God works like a vending machine anyways? There is no reason to think that God would perform such trivial gestures in the first place, thus no reason to justify the lack of Jesus' appearance.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
*sigh* You didn't even click the link, did you?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not if they're atheists, which would be just about the only people that would take that video seriously.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Second part is much more important. We know for a fact that Jesus was speaking specifically to the disciples in Matthew 18. As for the disciples being special, those are the guys that walked around with the son of God while he was preaching . . . 12 people out of billions through out history. That qualifies as pretty special.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There's also a massively gaping hole in the video's logic. The only thing it could even hope to prove is that Jesus lacks the power to spontaneously appear when called.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

unfortunately, that requires one to make predictions about the motivations and expected actions of a divine being which shows no pattern of behaviour to make such predictions about.

If you are asking my personal opinion, yes, the way God is described in most scripture is akin to an evil spirit which humans should resist at every instance, but like, thats my interpretation. Unless your definition of religion and God are literalist and not open to personal interpretations, its not really possible to make these types of logical arguments. The best you can do is say stuff like "If there is a benevolent God which X, Y and Z, then we might expect certain things to be observable in his followers/the organization of the world/etc." But that in itself is subject to what I described.

Maybe humans are just incapable of understanding evil?

Thats not much proof is it. the odd text out of context here and there and no basic knowledge of the bible.

and using churches pagan based beliefs as ammo.