Originally posted by Lightsnake
Like...what he does with Eragon's parentage. He has the SLIGHTEST glimmer of an original idea and then...sigh
Christopher Paolini is way up the list of "things I don't care about" and you can be quaranteed, that I won't touch one of his books, unless I get paid for it. And if that should be the case, somebody will have to invest a shitload of money to even make me take that into consideration.
I remember being tempted to walk out of the theatre when I saw it. But I paid for a full movie...
The poor backstory was a factor, but what I remember most was Jeremy Irons' character being killed due to Eragon's idiocy. How that little gem in the story was told pissed me off. The whole film seemed like a terrible attempt to fix the Dungeons & Dragons blunder, which-- I'll say it-- I liked more.
Mmkay. Let's give this one more shot, shall we. I'm in a better mood, class was cancelled last night. I got laid. Professor let us out early today. I think I've got enough patience left to attempt to make you all see the light one final time.
Originally posted by Nai
Excuse me, oh master of rhetoric. As far as I recall, it was you, who did ask Lightsnake for proof that Sidious can annihilate metal with his force lightning. That had what to do with the thread exactly? I mean, hey, I know that Lightsnake assumed Sidious could probably destroy lightsabers in a similar fashion to what he did with the ancient lightsaber Leia had in her hand. Point is that he didn't use force lightning to do it.
If you'll read through this thread, several pro-Sidious arguments used the supposed "fact" that DE Sidious can destroy lightsabers on command. Also, since he could "apparently" disintegrate 'large metal objects' with his "Force Lightning" he could do the same to a lightsaber. All of these assumptions were incorrect, of course. As a means of showing this, I asked LS to prove that Sidious was capable of disintegrating metal with his Force Lightning. He cannot. Zero evidentiary support.
Originally posted by Nai
Not that it matters at all, as the highest form of canon shows him using force lightning through solid metal objects:Vader's helmet consists of Durasteel. And well, newbie, having a look at the picture and noticing the little gas cloud at the back of Vader's helmet I would actually have to suggest that either the Durasteel started to vaporize or this is oxygen released from Vader's helmet which would mean that somebody did burn a hole into this thing using force lightning. Which would of course both lead to the conclusion that the Emperor is capable of melting metal with his force lightning.
That is a beautifully captured photo, Nai (I can refer to you as that? Or maybe as Diablo? 😉)
However, does Vader's helmet have a hole burned through it? Does Anakin's head have a hole in it? 'No' in each case. Thus, the movie apparently contradicts itself. You'll notice in that frame that the lightning looks like it goes through his skull, hence the 'hole in the head' line of thought. It's clear that Sidious' Force Lightning did not disintegrate or burn through Vader's durasteel helmet.
Originally posted by Gideon
I thought I have made this clear, but allow me to reiterate: I am not interested in your personal opinion on this matter. You're not an objective source; nowhere is Dark Empire noted for lackluster or misleading artwork. That you choose to refer to it as 'bad artwork' is your opinion, which (unless supported by facts), I am not interested in. That the Sourcebook doesn't specifically mention the disintegration or destruction of the cooling unit isn't conclusive proof that it didn't happen. This argument isn't going to get you anywhere
I wouldn't characterize your position as "objective" either, Gideon. You claim that nowhere is Dark Empire noted for 'bad artwork.' I know you wouldn't lie, but it doesn't seem like you gave that sentence much thought. If we are to take every piece of artwork in DE as absolute canon, here are a list of things off the top of my head that would hold true:
1. Luke Skywalker looks like he has Downes Syndrome or somekind of muscular disease.
2. Leia looks like a man.
3. The fetus Anakin can use Force Lightning through Leia's belly.
4. The 'cooling unit and Sidious' lightning against Leia' scene takes place in outer space, seeing as how there are no floors or walls or background at all, only blackness.
5. Lightsaber beams consist of large 'bulbs' of plasma energy near the hilt and thin out to a more typical saber thickness at the tip.
So, all of those are canon? No, clearly not. They're simply poor artwork. The fact of the matter is that the writer states Palpatine shattered Leia's lightsaber. Yet, he says that Palpatine shrugged off the cooling unit. If Palpatine had disintegrated or shattered the cooling unit, it would have been stated. Writers tend not to phrase sentences in the negative. "Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery, but was unable to disintegrate it." Does that even sound like something a professional writer would say? If Palpatine shattered the cooling unit, the Sourcebook would have confirmed. It doesn't. You can't go purely by the artwork. And I commend Lightsnake for having the wisdom to concede. I politely request that you re-evaluate your position on this point, Gideon, take everything into account, and then reach the same conclusion. Hell, I won't even count it as a concession or victory. Freebie here.
'Do it.' 😉
Originally posted by Nai
What a [sarcasm]brilliant[/sarcasm] take on the issue, newbie. So what? Absence of proof is now proof of absence. Great premise to argue from. So Bane isn't capable of taking a crap, because there is zero evidence to support that he can?
Yes. That "absence of proof is proof of absence?" argument is the same thing used by yourself and GV (to name a few) to justify Ragnos being the strongest Sith ever. It's proven to be a bad stance. I didn't know that Bane's bathroom habits qualified as a Force feat. Your example doesn't equivocate. But if you would like, I'll play your game:
1. Ragnos is the strongest Sith ever, due to the "most powerful of the powerful" quote. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
2. Darth Nihilus was able to use Force Storm. This is how he got the Ravager and his fleet off of Malachor V. He held together every ship in his fleet, created a Force Storm, and telekinetically threw them all through the wormhole. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
3. Darth Bane was capable of utterly destroying and melting multiple technobeasts. His Force Lightning can also completely annihilate an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
4. Revan >= DNT Luke Skywalker. Why? Well, Revan was described as being 'the heart of the Force.' Know where that phrase is also used? 'He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.' Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
Can you prove me wrong? See how stupid the 'absence of proof is proof of absence now?' line of thought is?
Originally posted by Enyalus
Mmkay. Let's give this one more shot, shall we. I'm in a better mood, class was cancelled last night. I got laid. Professor let us out early today. I think I've got enough patience left to attempt to make you all see the light one final time.If you'll read through this thread, several pro-Sidious arguments used the supposed "fact" that DE Sidious can destroy lightsabers on command. Also, since he could "apparently" disintegrate 'large metal objects' with his "Force Lightning" he could do the same to a lightsaber. All of these assumptions were incorrect, of course. As a means of showing this, I asked LS to prove that Sidious was capable of disintegrating metal with his Force Lightning. He cannot. Zero evidentiary support.
[/b]
That is a beautifully captured photo, Nai (I can refer to you as that? Or maybe as Diablo? 😉)
However, does Vader's helmet have a hole burned through it? Does Anakin's head have a hole in it? 'No' in each case. Thus, the movie apparently contradicts itself. You'll notice in that frame that the lightning looks like it goes through his skull, hence the 'hole in the head' line of thought. It's clear that Sidious' Force Lightning did not disintegrate or burn through Vader's durasteel helmet.
[/b]
I wouldn't characterize your position as "objective" either, Gideon. You claim that nowhere is Dark Empire noted for 'bad artwork.' I know you wouldn't lie, but it doesn't seem like you gave that sentence much thought. If we are to take every piece of artwork in DE as absolute canon, here are a list of things off the top of my head that would hold true:
1. Luke Skywalker looks like he has Downes Syndrome or somekind of muscular disease.
2. Leia looks like a man.
3. The fetus Anakin can use Force Lightning through Leia's belly.
4. The 'cooling unit and Sidious' lightning against Leia' scene takes place in outer space, seeing as how there are no floors or walls or background at all, only blackness.
5. Lightsaber beams consist of large 'bulbs' of plasma energy near the hilt and thin out to a more typical saber thickness at the tip.
So, all of those are canon? No, clearly not. They're simply poor artwork. The fact of the matter is that the writer states Palpatine shattered Leia's lightsaber. Yet, he says that Palpatine shrugged off the cooling unit. If Palpatine had disintegrated or shattered the cooling unit, it would have been stated. Writers tend not to phrase sentences in the negative. "Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery, but was unable to disintegrate it." Does that even sound like something a professional writer would say? If Palpatine shattered the cooling unit, the Sourcebook would have confirmed. It doesn't. You can't go purely by the artwork. And I commend Lightsnake for having the wisdom to concede. I politely request that you re-evaluate your position on this point, Gideon, take everything into account, and then reach the same conclusion. Hell, I won't even count it as a concession or victory. Freebie here.
'Do it.' 😉
[/b]
Yes. That "absence of proof is proof of absence?" argument is the same thing used by yourself and GV (to name a few) to justify Ragnos being the strongest Sith ever. It's proven to be a bad stance. I didn't know that Bane's bathroom habits qualified as a Force feat. Your example doesn't equivocate. But if you would like, I'll play your game:
1. Ragnos is the strongest Sith ever, due to the "most powerful of the powerful" quote. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
...huh?
2. Darth Nihilus was able to use Force Storm. This is how he got the Ravager and his fleet off of Malachor V. He held together every ship in his fleet, created a Force Storm, and telekinetically threw them all through the wormhole. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
3. Darth Bane was capable of utterly destroying and melting multiple technobeasts. His Force Lightning can also completely annihilate an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
4. Revan >= DNT Luke Skywalker. Why? Well, Revan was described as being 'the heart of the Force.' Know where that phrase is also used? 'He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.' Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I wouldn't characterize your position as "objective" either, Gideon. You claim that nowhere is Dark Empire noted for 'bad artwork.' I know you wouldn't lie, but it doesn't seem like you gave that sentence much thought. If we are to take every piece of artwork in DE as absolute canon, here are a list of things off the top of my head that would hold true:1. Luke Skywalker looks like he has Downes Syndrome or somekind of muscular disease.
2. Leia looks like a man.
3. The fetus Anakin can use Force Lightning through Leia's belly.
4. The 'cooling unit and Sidious' lightning against Leia' scene takes place in outer space, seeing as how there are no floors or walls or background at all, only blackness.
5. Lightsaber beams consist of large 'bulbs' of plasma energy near the hilt and thin out to a more typical saber thickness at the tip.
So, all of those are canon? No, clearly not. They're simply poor artwork. The fact of the matter is that the writer states Palpatine shattered Leia's lightsaber. Yet, he says that Palpatine shrugged off the cooling unit. If Palpatine had disintegrated or shattered the cooling unit, it would have been stated. Writers tend not to phrase sentences in the negative. "Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery, but was unable to disintegrate it." Does that even sound like something a professional writer would say? If Palpatine shattered the cooling unit, the Sourcebook would have confirmed. It doesn't. You can't go purely by the artwork. And I commend Lightsnake for having the wisdom to concede. I politely request that you re-evaluate your position on this point, Gideon, take everything into account, and then reach the same conclusion. Hell, I won't even count it as a concession or victory. Freebie here.
'Do it.' 😉
I'm not interested in your commendations to others. The crux of your entire argument is based off of the idea that since the Sourcebook didn't specifically mention the disintegration, it didn't happen. You're trying to interpret the intentions of the author to me. A rather arrogant position to take.
I am not interested in the diatribe of someone who constantly proves himself to be a remarkable hypocrite. This is the third time or so that I have warned you about double standards and hypocrisy; don't address one of my arguments again unless it is on Project Holocron, and consider this your final warning there: don't bring your hypocritical narcissism to my thread.
Originally posted by Jbill311
Actually, didn't Sidious invent the force storm? Which would mean that it didn't exist yet- meaning that big N. couldn't have used it. QED.
Darth Rivan used the Force Storm to travel to Ruusan during the Brotherhood of Darkness/Army of Light conflict in 1,000 BBY, as found in A Mon Alone (C-canon).
[/End Nice Guy Act]
[Commensing Prick Programming]
Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not interested in your commendations to others. The crux of your entire argument is based off of the idea that since the Sourcebook didn't specifically mention the disintegration, it didn't happen. You're trying to interpret the intentions of the author to me. A rather arrogant position to take.
The crux of your argument involves blindly following artwork which in 5 cases I've proven to be faulty. Oh, and ignoring the Sourcebook material which clarifies it. I wouldn't have to interpret the author for you if your reading comprehension and knowledge of English literature were higher. Sadly, they clearly aren't.
From this point on, I'm not interested in what you're interested in or your opinions at all. Your "logic" is laughable and bias incredible. Bias which includes amongst other things, 1) DE Sidious beating four PT-era Council members - two of whom who are the most powerful Jedi ever, and 2) Suggesting that DE Sidious could defeat NJO Luke in combat. I don't deal well with stupidity, and you're easily at the top of the list.
Whatever you come back with won't be responded to. You've wasted enough of my time in this thread with responses like 'he waves his hand and kills Obi-Wan and Anakin' and 'nowhere is Dark Empire noted for lackluster or misleading artwork' (as if someone would actually note such a thing).
Consider your opinions officially irrelevant.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Mmkay. Let's give this one more shot, shall we. I'm in a better mood, class was cancelled last night. I got laid. Professor let us out early today. I think I've got enough patience left to attempt to make you all see the light one final time.
Thanks for sharing that episode of your reallife with us, Betty. If you listen closely, you might hear the all too familiar sound of nobody giving a crap.
If you'll read through this thread, several pro-Sidious arguments used the supposed "fact" that DE Sidious can destroy lightsabers on command. Also, since he could "apparently" disintegrate 'large metal objects' with his "Force Lightning" he could do the same to a lightsaber. All of these assumptions were incorrect, of course. As a means of showing this, I asked LS to prove that Sidious was capable of disintegrating metal with his Force Lightning.
Urm. I'm aware of the fact that Lightsnake claimed Sidious could just destroy lightsabers as will. The fact is, that Sidious can do that, on Byss and not encountering a powerful opponent. Now who was talking about force lightning?
Aww. Yes. Lightsnake claimed that Sidious can do the same stuff with force lightning that Bane can do. A pretty paradox situation here, because what Bane actually did was not melting metal, but this here:
"He rose to see the wall of creatures pressing in on him, and he unleashed a wave of lightning through their ranks. The bolts arced through the mostly metal bodies; the nanotechnology that animated their frames and gave them life smoked and smoldered, and a dozen more of his opponents toppled over never to rise again."
Great thing, though. He didn't melt down the technobeast, he did just short-circuit the nanotechnology virus that kept them moving. As nanotechnology deals with structures smaller than 100 Nanometers, I bet Sidious, who did short-circuit the lifesupport-systems of Vader and Brand rather easily, would be able to do the same. So, essentially, Lightsnake was right with his claim - you were just both wrong regarding the metal-destruction.
He cannot. Zero evidentiary support.
Urm. Aside from the fact that he destroys the lightsaber (metal) and the cooling unit (metal) he also burns a hole in Brands life-support suit (metal) in the end of EE, with the hole being visible itself and we can also see Brands body juices dropping out of it. And for the latter example, the "but he was on Byss" argument also doesn't apply.
However, does Vader's helmet have a hole burned through it? Does Anakin's head have a hole in it? 'No' in each case. Thus, the movie apparently contradicts itself. You'll notice in that frame that the lightning looks like it goes through his skull, hence the 'hole in the head' line of thought. It's clear that Sidious' Force Lightning did not disintegrate or burn through Vader's durasteel helmet.
I wonder, how you're able to perceive depth in a two-dimensional picture, pal. And to my even greater astonishment, you also seem capable of noticing miniature holes [so big that air can go through them] with your raw eye.
In fact we're confronted with a metal construct that is exposed to electrical energy. So naturally, some of the energy would be conducted [into Vader's body, the lower part of the suit - which we can perceive because Vader's bones are glowing through his armor]. The rest of the energy would still start melting the helmet. And sorry: There is no other explanation for the small gas cloud we see behind the helmet. Either the upper layer of the helmet turned into gas at that point, or we have a hole in the helmet, where the oxygen from the suit exits.
So neither does the energy have to literally burn a hole into Vader's head, nor do you have to see the resulting hole(s).
I wouldn't characterize your position as "objective" either, Gideon.
Considering that he, unlike you, isn't arguing against four instances of canon [lightsaber explosion, cooling unit explosion, Brand suit with a hole in it, Vader's helmet melting] I'd say he's quite more "objective" than you.
The fact of the matter is that the writer states Palpatine shattered Leia's lightsaber. Yet, he says that Palpatine shrugged off the cooling unit. If Palpatine had disintegrated or shattered the cooling unit, it would have been stated.
And see. Here is why you're reasoning is simply fallacious. I bet you can find the fact that Luke killed Shimmra in every post-NJO text written about Luke. Now from there, you would have to draw the conclusions that, each and every single time Luke killed somebody, the author of the text would mention it.
Now. I don't know a single text about Luke where it is mentioned that, by destroying the Death Star, Luke killed every single being on board of the station. Now...does that mean it didn't happen? Obviously not. In fact Luke literally kills thousands if not millions of pawns [Stormtroopers, thugs, Fighter pilots, crew members of ships, Yuuzhan Vong, Killiks] throughout the entire saga, without one single of that beings making it's way into a sourcebook text regarding Luke.
Similar to that, you can find about 1000 times where Luke used the force, without that ever appearing in some sourcebook text. You can find millions of dialogue lines, never making it into such text. Why? Because the author of a sourcebook would just mention what is important for him. Yet....is the desintegration of the cooling unit important? No. In fact it's even unwanted from the perspective of the sourcebook writer because he has to explain events according to the rules of the SW RPG. And that Game doesn't offer any explanation for the stuff Sidious did.
Writers tend not to phrase sentences in the negative. "Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery, but was unable to disintegrate it."Does that even sound like something a professional writer would say?
"Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a tone of machinery, and then desintegrated said ton of machinery with some unknown force power" <- Does that sound better?
If Palpatine shattered the cooling unit, the Sourcebook would have confirmed.
You can mention that line of thought another 200 times, which doesn't make it less fallacious.
It doesn't. You can't go purely by the artwork.
Funny. May I rephrase that: So we can't go by the visual interpretation of things happening in the SW universe? An interesting concept. Because last time I checked, the movies (which are visual interpretation of the things happening) where the highest form of canon regarding the SW universe. But according to you: We can't thrust them. We need additional explanation of everything happening on screen by another source. Otherwise the things didn't happen.
Hell, I won't even count it as a concession or victory.
Which is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really generous, considering that you are completely wrong.
Yes. That "absence of proof is proof of absence?" argument is the same thing used by yourself and GV (to name a few) to justify Ragnos being the strongest Sith ever.
a) Since there is proof, that argument is worthless for this debate here.
b) Considering Sidious did just force rape more than 500 Stormtroopers in body armor, it's stupid - just thinking about physics for a split second - that he can't melt metal with the same technique.
c) I've never seen an argument for Ragnos that was limited to that sentence. This might come from the fact, that most of that arguments were coming from rather smart persons, one of them being myself.
And really newbie. Even if somebody comes running into my room now and conducts a lobotomy on me, I won't be stupid enough after that, to even attempt and argue such a lost case like yourself here.
Now. I don't know a single text about Luke where it is mentioned that, by destroying the Death Star, Luke killed every single being on board of the station. Now...does that mean it didn't happen? Obviously not. In fact Luke literally kills thousands if not millions of pawns [Stormtroopers, thugs, Fighter pilots, crew members of ships, Yuuzhan Vong, Killiks] throughout the entire saga, without one single of that beings making it's way into a sourcebook text regarding Luke.
Actually, It seems like he did suffer some doubt or regret about the deaths. Maybe when he was talking to Ben, or when Ben was rationalizing some of the messed up SHIT that he did does not matter. The point is that Ben Skywalker knows that his father suffered guilt over the deaths of the Death Star. Would you let your kid know the full extent of your feelings over an atrocity you committed? I wouldn't want them to know how bad I felt, just that it was a bad decision. He is probably more torn up about it than he lets on (around Ben). Part of Skywalker's main flaws (says Project Holocron) is that he holds back, and only infrequently releases his FULL PWR!!111 The deaths of millions of people the first time he does so (in ANH- the first time he intentionally uses the Force in combat) may be involved in this.