DE Sidious vs ROTS Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Obi Wan

Started by Borbarad25 pages

And just so you're reminded, because it would seem like you forget what you're supposed to be arguing - the initial premise was that Sidious cannot disintegrate large metal objects with his Force Lightning. Which, even if we take your interpretation, he doesn't. That hardly matters though, because he isn't disintegrating it at all in any way.

Okay, newbie. What is it now? If your original premise, having nothing to do with the topic of this thread whatsoever, is that Sidious can't desintegrate metal with his force lightning, then using an instance in which he doesn't even use force lightning would be a pretty stupid way to proof that premise. In fact you would have to find an instance in which he attempts to melt metal with his force lightning and fails.


No, you aren't using that strawman. He is an omniscient out of universe writer.

How can a regular human being existing outside of the SW universe be omniscient? See, newbie, the fact of the matter is this: If you want to question the illustrator of the comic [who should be accepted as omniscient being, due to the fact that he views the action from outside the characters and presents viewpoints that no character could have] then I can also question the writer of the sourcebook. Which still doesn't matter, since they don't contradict each other. It's just another double standard used by yourself.


Yes? Because last time I checked, shrugging off something after it hits you ('impact'😉 is completely different than disintegrating it. Conclusion: Sidious doesn't disintegrate the cooling unit, or it would have been specified.

And this is why I think you're an idiot. Shall we go back to the original quote:

"When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

Now: What does Sidious “shrug off” here? Right answer: The impact. What does that mean: That he isn't affected by the impact at all. Does this say anything about the cooling unit being desintegrated or not? Nope. Because he just shrugs off the impact and anything happening past said impact is not even mentioned. Yet we have the visible evidence of the cooling unit getting ripped into pieces – a fact that isn't contradicted. So why would we question it? Oh right. There is no reason to question that fact, yet you're still attempting to do so.

And I'm afraid: That the Sourcebook mentions the lightsaber being desintegrated but doesn't mention the same for the cooling unit also isn't a conclusive point. That is you “moving the goalpost” which is still fallacious. We have evidence that the cooling units is ripped into pieces and yet [without having reason to do so] demand more evidence.


Where do I see it stated? Right after that exact line. And I've posted the quote half a dozen times in another thread, and half of the quote in this thread at least three times already. If you don't know the material, that's fine. Say so, "Newbie."

Oh really?
How about quoting the relevant stuff next time you're attempting to make an argument, huh? Oh, I forgot. That is what a smart person would do, so sorry for expecting something like that from you.


Only, that isn't what is employed. It's third person limited. Even without the speech bubbles of the characters, the "narration bubbles" follow a single character's thoughts.

Oh sure thing, pal. I wonder how you're going to explain this line of narration here:
Nal Hutta, a name that means “glorious jewel” in huttese, is one of the systems to which Hutts migrated in great number over the centuries. It's also the birthplace of Jabba the Hutt. Nal Hutta's great spaceport moon, Nar Shadda, is presently the center of smuggling activities throughout the Galaxy. In the days before hyperspace travel, Nar Shadda was a heavily populated waystation and cargo port

So apparently one of the members of the Falcon crew is a great historian nowadays and has intimate knowledge about the Hutt culture, not only being able to speak Huttese to translate the name of the planet, but also knowledge of Jabba's birthplace, the ability to make judgement about the Galaxy in total [center of smuggling activities] and does possess knowledge about history to such a degree, that he can make accurate statements about a time more than 25,000 years in the past [days before hyperspace travel]?

Later in the book [E-Wings VS World Devastators]
But not everyone will return to the victory celebration. A line by the narrator which is immediately followed by the death of one of the pilots. So urm. A narrator capable of predicting events is pretty much omniscient, actually.

Again later [Leia and Han flying through the shielding of Byss]
As the invisible window opens through to allow the Intruder through the planetary shields... Oh well? The narrator is capable of seeing invisible objects such as planetary shields and mention how they behave.


And as for the POV in the picture, it's obviously coming from Luke or Leia's perspective - and hence prone to error, anyway.

Yeah. Because a comic book that doesn't employ first person views at all, will suddenly do so. Not to mention that Luke and Leia would have to be dwarves to be able to see the Emperors entire body, standing just metres away. And even if we would assume that you're right there: You're now wanting to tell me that two veterans of a Galaxy spanning civil war, both trained in the ways of the force to a certain extend, won't recognize a freaking explosion if it happens?


You're right. You clearly don't have anything constructive to add, so unless someone else wants to take this up, I'm done with this thread. I've made my points. And no, they are not wrong. As has been shown.

Ipsedixitism is no way to win arguments. And no...I don't have anything to constructive to add. I'm just here to tear your pathetic opinion apart in an attempt to inflate some common sense in the space between your ears – and I'm rather certain that I will finally succeed with that, given that there is so much empty space to fill there. So have a nice day, newbie.

Oh, Christ, Nai. Please don't let this post be swallowed in a six page rebuttal.

Originally posted by Faunus
Way to ignore Mace Windu and noob-Kenobi.

They weren't worth it. But if it will make you feel better: the cooling unit dropped on the Emperor was not in the middle of a combat scenario, unlike the ones you mentioned with Kenobi and Windu. Moreover, Palpatine is physically enfeebled with his dark side energies. I'm not going to repeat myself, Faunus.

Can I take your lack of a rebuttal regarding Yoda as a concession?

And the omniscient narrator of the Sourcebook is fine with that.

Canon >>> Your opinion.

WTF? Is this for 2008's KMC Nonsensical Post of the Year award? Am I being Punk'd?

Everything going on before TFU came out, including you claiming that he pulled down a Star Destroyer because the trailer showed it, the vast majority of people here believing various things about Mace Windu's telekinetic displays in Shatterpoint, and what was basically the unwitting spread of lies by even myself count as misinformation.

He did pull a Star Destroyer down...

I love your work.

I wish I could say the same, but... this is getting ridiculous.

You bring new meaning to the phrase "racially colorblind."

They have similar physiology.

Somehow, you say that their is a possibility that Dooku's telekinesis is more "refined" than Palpatine's (while throwing in several statements detailing how much weaker he is overall), and managed to come to the conclusion that Kyp Durron - who replicated a feat that knocked Luke Skywalker out - has less raw power than the Emperor, despite the latter never having displayed telekinesis on such a scale, and yet you have trouble believing that Darth Bane's lightning is more potent, despite the fact that he has done things with it - ruined stuff - that Palpatine has not?

WTF? Faunus, knock, knock.

a.) Since when does 'refinement' translate to potency? In fact, I recall specifically arguing that the Emperor's mastery of telekinesis is still likely more potent than Dooku's, since he is the stronger Force user. Are you ****ing nuts?

b.) Skywalker muses in The New Rebellion that he has never had a student as powerful as the Emperor. Kyp Durron? Student of Luke's.

...

This shall be saved, to sate my temporarily dulled ego.

Your ego isn't the only thing about you that seems to be dulled, sir.

Maybe our food is spiked. I mean, y'know, that might be the only reason we make sense.

No, only illegal substances could cause damage of this magnitude.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Isn't this DURING RoT, though? Also, it doesn't elaborate on how many hands, he uses, just that he unleashes a 'storm' of it.
Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.
One presumes he was holding on to the saddle-less drexl, especially since he leaves two mercenaries as "smoking husks" on the ground after frying them with one hand.
Clenching the fingers of his left hand tight against his open palm, Bane wheeled toward the two men on his right and thrust his fist up into the air.

And all of that happens while Zannah is still ten - he leaves her and tells her to go to Onderon, then he meets her there after acquiring the orbalisks.

He also does this (during the later period), after literally blowing up several "technobeasts":

He rose to see the wall of creatures pressing in on him, and he unleashed a wave of lightning through their ranks. The bolts arced through the mostly metal bodies; the nanotechnology that animated their frames and gave them life smoked and smoldered, and a dozen more of his opponents toppled over never to rise again.

Originally posted by Faunus
Somehow, you say that their is a possibility that Dooku's telekinesis is more "refined" than Palpatine's (while throwing in several statements detailing how much weaker he is overall), and managed to come to the conclusion that Kyp Durron - who replicated a feat that knocked Luke Skywalker out - has less raw power than the Emperor, despite the latter never having displayed telekinesis on such a scale, and yet you have trouble believing that Darth Bane's lightning is more potent, despite the fact that he has done things with it - ruined stuff - that Palpatine has not?

...

Well Faunus. Telekinesis is neither a specific Sith technique, nor is it the Emperor's "weapon of choice". And aside of that, it also doesn't just count on "raw power" as Sith Lightning does. As Anoon Bondara teaches Darsha Assent in Shadow Hunter it is more demanding to lift a grain of sand than to lift a stone, despite - logically - the latter would require more actual power.

Hence one could refine telekinetic abilities. But how does somebody refine a technique that basically goes "I take my entire hatred, Dark Side energy - whatever - and toss it at my opponents in the form of lightning"?

And then we would still be confronted with the following question: Is it harder to melt a single cyborg-like Technobeast or harder to simultaneously [albeit partitionally] melt the armor plates / body gloves of 500+ Stormtroopers?

Edit:
Considering Bane simply annihilated the nanotechnology parts of the Technobeasts, it even seems less impressive. He's simply short-circuiting them...

Whew. No six pages.

Originally posted by Gideon
Whew. No six pages.

Boon!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Boon!

Well, I was like "Shit, talk about bad timing." I was afraid you'd leave so many posts that I'd never get the chance to see my argument with Faunus ever again.

By the way, James Spader lost the Emmy for the first time in five years. It is a sad, sad day.

Originally posted by Faunus
One presumes he was holding on to the saddle-less drexl, especially since he leaves two mercenaries as "smoking husks" on the ground after frying them with one hand.

I'm pretty sure one can ride these things, at least temporarily, without hands...raising hands for Force lightning when one's legs are as thick as Bane's wouldn't be hard

And all of that happens while Zannah is still ten - he leaves her and tells her to go to Onderon, then he meets her there after acquiring the orbalisks.

Yeah, but that's during RoT?

He also does this (during the later period), after literally blowing up several "technobeasts":

He destroys them, yeah...though it takes him well over an hour and he short circuits a few of them...heck, he'd have died like ten times over there if not for-say it with me- THE ORBALISKS.

Originally posted by Gideon
Buddy, you lost me right when you said "age doesn't make a difference." I guess I forgot where old people can take a ton of machinery to the head and walk around like no trouble. Wow, lol, I guess Skywalker was ridiculously weak -- I mean, the guy was knocked out with a gaffi stick. He's probably in perpetual embarrassment.

its obvious you didn't even read the point. You read that one sentence and skipped over the rest. I wasn't even talking about the cooling unit when i said that. I said, that DE sidious by all-accounts SHOULD BE the most powerful version of Sidious. He's the oldest, which seems to help in accruing force-power. I pointed out that Yoda was at his most powerful well over 900 years of age, thus supporting that DE sidious was more powerful than ROTS and ROTJ versions. What the heck did that have to do with what you said?
at least make it pertinent to the argument, i've come to expect more of you.

Originally posted by Gideon
Well, I was like "Shit, talk about bad timing." I was afraid you'd leave so many posts that I'd never get the chance to see my argument with Faunus ever again.

And I was just attempting to be funny, using a hilarious word play, as "boon" can [apparently] mean "newbie" (insulting you), "blessing" (answering your post), "kindness" (me doing you a favor with that little posts) and, of course, it can be reversed into "noob" meaning "newbie" once more, insulting you again.


By the way, James Spader lost the Emmy for the first time in five years. It is a sad, sad day.

Well. Why I feel sad for James Spader, because he certainly deserves any prize for acting one could win, regardless of what he does, I have to say that I pretty much don't care about the Emmy Awards.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And I was just attempting to be funny, using a hilarious word play, as "boon" can [apparently] mean "newbie" (insulting you), "blessing" (answering your post), "kindness" (me doing you a favor with that little posts) and, of course, it can be reversed into "noob" meaning "newbie" once more, insulting you again.

Nah. You weren't insulting me. I'm pretty much the only guy here who likes Shark. James Woods wouldn't want us to fight.

Well. Why I feel sad for James Spader, because he certainly deserves any prize for acting one could win, regardless of what he does, I have to say that I pretty much don't care about the Emmy Awards.

Neither do I, not after tonight. I'm emotionally deadened. Did you catch the season premiere last night?

I'll extend an olive branch to Nai as well, things considered. I'm curious, Nai, ever watch Dexter or Supernatural?

Originally posted by Gideon
Nah. You weren't insulting me. I'm pretty much the only guy here who likes Shark. James Woods wouldn't want us to fight.

LOL. A convincing argument.


Neither do I, not after tonight. I'm emotionally deadened. Did you catch the season premiere last night?

Gosh, no. Germany = UTC+1, Boston Legal = 9 p.m. @ UTC-6. Being 7 hours ahead of that, would mean I'd have to get up @ 4 a.m. to watch it [or stay up that long].

Edit:

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'll extend an olive branch to Nai as well, things considered. I'm curious, Nai, ever watch Dexter or Supernatural?

Actually, I don't spend too much time in front of my TV. Occasionally I even miss shows I try to watch as often as I can - because of simply forgetting them when reading a book or being out with friends.

Then I'm limited to DVB-T which doesn't allow me to watch American/English shows at all, which forces me to either watch the German versions, get the stuff via the net, or buy DVDs. I'm usually sticking to the latter and then go through an entire season of a series when I have a day of free-time.

That reminds me...how far'd you get with A Song of Ice and Fire?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That reminds me...how far'd you get with A Song of Ice and Fire?

Waiting for "A Dance with Dragons"...

So are we all. He'll likely finish writing it by the end of this year...we hope.

In the meantime, I recommend some Bernard Cornwell, George Macdonald Fraser or Patrick O'Brian (best historical writers I must say), Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, Scott Lynch or Joe Abercrombie on the fantasy side.

And Brisingr just came out. Heard anything? Gotta say...it's HILARIOUS.

I've already read anything by Gaiman and Pratchett (in two languages).

For historical stuff, I'm rather interested in medieval stories [as I study medieval history], with Cornwell and O'Brian not matching the criteria. And George MacDonald? You're talking about George MacDonald Fraser (Flashman series), which would also not fit my categories, or about the "original" George MacDonald (the Scotish writer) because the latter definetly rules.

If you want to read some really good fantasy, I just can say: Get your hands on the novels by Andrzej Sapkowski. The guy kicks ass.

I've read the Witcher stuff indeed. And Cornwell ain't medieval? Oh, you're wrong there. Besides the Sharpe stuff, he's also got a great trilogy on the early 100 Years War (The Grail Quest), a trilogy on Dark Age Britain (The Warlord Trilogy) and on the unification of England (The Saxon stories) with a book on Agincourt coming out this year.

And Gaiman's new novel the Graveyard book comes out soon. And I did mean George MacDonald Fraser, though you might also wanna check out Nigel Tranter, who did some great Scottish books in the medieval time.

And take a look at Abercrombie and Lynch...two relative newbies, but promising ones...and Jim Butcher's the Dresden Files are a really fun and great read

And Brisingr just came out. Heard anything? Gotta say...it's HILARIOUS.

On the level of "OMG I can't believe he's that dumb!!!"?

Or was it intentional?
The series is a joke- a parody of Tolkien and Star Wars with pretentious ambitions at being His Dark Materials good. I LOL @ Christopher Paolini. (and yet i'll still buy Brisingr. I hate myself)

Like...what he does with Eragon's parentage. He has the SLIGHTEST glimmer of an original idea and then...sigh