Was the Empire really that bad?

Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material.

I wouldn't say the films made it very clear. Obviously all of the officers they showed were bad..but they really never touched on it in depth to draw such a conclusion from the movies. I am hoping they will in the upcoming live action series.

Remember, the Republic became the Empire...All of the government and military officials of the Republic that were good did not automatically become bad after the Empire was born (besides the clones) they just had new orders and would have to follow them. I am sure their are some good guys on the Imperial side that either believe what they are doing is right or are just blinded. Plus they may not want to risk running off to the Rebels if they didn't like it.

Remember the opening crawl in ROTS..."Heroes on both sides...evil is everywhere" (or something like that.)

This suggests good guys are among both sides...something you could apply to the Imperial forces.

Men don't have to be monsters to do bad things...sometimes it is the orders that cause good men to do what some would consider bad.

Originally posted by Captain REX
DarkSerpent, if you keep that attitude up, I am throwing you out.

The Galactic Empire is not Nazi Germany. The films made it very clear that anyone working for the Empire was bad. They were working for the Sith, whether they knew it or not, they were disposing of democracy and free will, they were destroying planets and subjugating others... if the did not defect to the Rebellion, then they were bad.

If the EU is saying otherwise, then it is all the more reason for me to dislike the Expanded Universe and its inability to stick with the source material.

If this were to be the truth of the matter, then every Imperial who defected most have had a complete moral makeover. If they knew themselves to be Evil, then they must have been Evil in all walks of life. Such as sudden and frankly quite unbelievable shift in the chemical composition in the part of your brain which recognizes right and wrong doesn't behoove humanity. It's more of a realization that what you support is morally wrong, only you didn't see it before (for whatever reason). An Evil person is someone who knows when Evil takes place, approves of, and assists that Evil. No ignorant person can even claim to be Evil when they have no idea what's really going on.

Originally posted by TG
If they knew themselves to be Evil, then they must have been Evil in all walks of life.

PRUVE IT, DOOD, LULZ!

Originally posted by Enyalus
PRUVE IT, DOOD, LULZ!

One is not Evil in some moments and Good in others. A person's nature swings to one or the other.

Not so. There have been plenty of murderers and rapists who have had loved ones themselves. Daughters they took care of. Or an old parent they cared for.

Saw an interview on A & E a few years ago with a convicted mob hitman, codenamed The Iceman (he used to put a few bodies in a freezer to throw off the police about the time of death). Contracted killer for the mob who killed the people he was hired to, other hitmen he considered friends, and even police officers. But he had a wife and family he says he loves, etc.

It's very rare you find someone evil through and through. Those are called sociopaths, and lack any kind of empathy. 😉

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, your viewpoint is very black and white. I believe people to be more complex than that. Chalk it up to a philosophical difference, I suppose.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Not so. There have been plenty of murderers and rapists who have had loved ones themselves. Daughters they took care of. Or an old parent they cared for.

Saw an interview on A & E a few years ago with a convicted mob hitman, codenamed The Iceman (he used to put a few bodies in a freezer to throw off the police about the time of death). Contracted killer for the mob who killed the people he was hired to, other hitmen he considered friends, and even police officers. But he had a wife and family he says he loves, etc.

It's very rare you find someone evil through and through. Those are called sociopaths, and lack any kind of empathy. 😉

There's Evil deeds, and there's Evil thought. A truly Evil person should be aware of their moral allignment. Ignorance (while sometimes inexcusable in deed) doesn't make one Evil. If such an aware person takes delight in deeds that are defined as Evil, then they themselves are. Even apathy towards Evil deeds throws one's morality into question, though that's subjective to situation.

A sociopath could be under the impression that he's done nothing wrong (makes him no less crazy or dangerous).

Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Pestage... they all knew right and wrong, Light and Dark, Good and Evil, but they willingly chose the Evil path. The average trooper was under the impression that he was doing Good, and serving Good... that does not make him Evil. Hell he may have never actually committed and Evil deed, nevermind nursed Evil thoughts.

I agree with the rest of your post. I wanted to develop more on one part of it though:

Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Pestage... they all knew right and wrong, Light and Dark, Good and Evil, but they willingly chose the Evil path. The average trooper was under the impression that he was doing Good, and serving Good... that does not make him Evil. Hell he may have never actually committed and Evil deed, nevermind nursed Evil thoughts.

What I had said in my previous post, regarding Plato and Nietzsche, is that while they know what is right and wrong, good and bad, they might see it differently. To be human is to want Good. Not just the semblance of it. And that's where people get into trouble. Because who is defining what that good is, or the approaches to it? The men you mentioned used fear to control people. But control, when you're at the top of a government, is good. It means less civil fighting, less rebellion. Tamer masses. In general, peace. And peace is good. In the end, they deluded themselves into thinking that the ends justified the means. I doubt any of them saw themselves as evil.

Vader slaughtered children - many of whom he probably knew. But he did so in order to save Padme, someone he loved. To him, he had no choice.

Palpatine amassed political and personal power. But, what's the Sith motto?

Through passion I gain strength
Through strength I gain power
Through power I gain victory
Through victory my chains are broken.

So by amassing this power, Palpatine was freeing himself - making sure that he was the boss, and would be slave to no one elses decisions and rules. He set the bar. He was free. And freedom is good. For him. Which is a perfect form of egoism.

It's all a matter of perspective. Like I said, I don't believe anyone truly sees themselves as evil.

To each his own, though. I'll never impose a belief of mine on someone else. That's also part of my philosophy.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It's all a matter of perspective. Like I said, I don't believe anyone truly sees themselves as evil.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Maybe not, but the rest of us do. And bully to them if they disagree. Men who willingly recognize and break the fundamental laws of society and defy the established morality of its people, are, for lack of a better word, Evil. And to those naysayers who think the ends always justifies the means, well... let's just say that if their is a peaceful, less harmful methof of obtaining the greater good, then don't pick it's deadly counterpart, lest you be labelled Evil.

👆 To quote Faunus, "Wurd."

Originally posted by Tangible God
Maybe not, but the rest of us do. And bully to them if they disagree. Men who willingly recognize and break the fundamental laws of society and defy the established morality of its people, are, for lack of a better word, Evil. And to those naysayers who think the ends always justifies the means, well... let's just say that if their is a peaceful, less harmful methof of obtaining the greater good, then don't pick it's deadly counterpart, lest you be labelled Evil.

I can't avoid noting that for several citizens in the empire, serving the legal government was the right thing to do. It was with the law and with the order and peace that the clone wars has taken away from them, eventhough it meant to cause pain and suffering to those opposing to the law and government.
Something similar happened in Germany during the nazi government. The majority of germans and imperials were not bad, they were misguided by the situation, the leadership, the propaganda and the belief that they were better than before.
There were some really cruel and bad people, as everywhere, but for certain people, they got what they wanted from the empire....a sense of peace, control and welfare. And they were ready to do whatever was necessary to protect that, even if that ment commiting what we under our own point of view consider as attrocities. That happened even to some american soldiers in Vietnam war, they commited attocities in the name of democracy, and they thought it was right, and some just did it for sport.

Ummm People....yes iv seen eveything you've typed but may i point out. That the Leaders of an Orginization ARE the Orginization. Since they make the calls they do the deeds. Its like this...You are in a office...you are just a janitor...and you're boss tells you to take some money from a poor person and you're boss gives you a good reason to do it...You do it...Ok...THE GALACTIC EMPIRE...is run by the leaders....we dont care...about the pawns of the Empire. WE are debateng the Empire as a Orginization the Janitor was naeve but the Boss was Evil. so...the Company is EVIL

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Ummm People....yes iv seen eveything you've typed but may i point out. That the Leaders of an Orginization ARE the Orginization. Since they make the calls they do the deeds. Its like this...You are in a office...you are just a janitor...and you're boss tells you to take some money from a poor person and you're boss gives you a good reason to do it...You do it...Ok...THE GALACTIC EMPIRE...is run by the leaders....we dont care...about the pawns of the Empire. WE are debateng the Empire as a Orginization the Janitor was naeve but the Boss was Evil. so...the Company is EVIL

Originally posted by General Zink
And that means... what?

As we progress past the times of Palpatine, I could understand seeing different aspects of the Empire, but under the manipulations of the Sith... if you're joining up the Imperial ranks, chances are you are not a good person. Good people join against it.

Allegiance says otherwise.

lolz.

And it's that black and white bland story-telling that makes me find the PT's story to be far superior to the OT.

How so...If the OT is Black and White then we wouldent be having this discussion...as you sayed you'reself Alliegance says that there is a Grey...So what you just said just overwrite what you previously said..o.o.

... what?

The OT is black and white. The EU is not, and neither is the PT. Allegience is part of EU.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Woah. I thought for a half a second that Ush had hacked your profile. This is the EU Forum, ya know.

And the movies are still beyond the Expanded Universe.

Originally posted by Gideon
Based on collective evidence, the Empire -- as a whole -- was just incredibly strict. Taxation and such increased dramatically, but most people who minded their own business wouldn't see the business end of a lightsaber or blaster. It should be noted that Palpatine was extraordinarily popular and, for the most part, so was the Empire. The public would blame their less-than-hospitable actions on icons of fear like Tarkin and Vader, but wouldn't associate the Empire's war crimes with Palpatine himself.

Originally posted by Captain REX
And the movies are still beyond the Expanded Universe.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Yup. But such black and white perception is boring and quite stifling.

And patently false.

With deepest respect to Sirs Ushgarak and REX, I have never got the impression that the Galactic Empire and its employees and loyalists were wholly evil. As George Lucas and other characters reiterate as a mantra, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." So the idea that the Empire is absolutely evil is, in itself, an evil and false idea.