Project Holocron

Originally posted by Faunus
[b]PLOT INDUCED STUPIDITY.

Maul somehow being resurrected and re-trained to perfection is believable, but Vader purposely holding back his power to prove his worth isn't? [/B]

Even taking Maul out of my list reduces it from 9 to 8...Besides this, I was only counting the Sith. Numerous Jedi would be able to kill Vader in combat a majority of the time, making him not even in the top 10 or 15.

I agree with you, though. Maul being resurrected at all was just plain stupid. The fact that the Emperor knew he was and send Vader anyway, also equally lame.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The fact that the Emperor knew he was and send Vader anyway, also equally lame.

It fits in well with his character though and in the nature of the sith where only the strongest will survive.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Even taking Maul out of my list reduces it from 9 to 8...Besides this, I was only counting the Sith. Numerous Jedi would be able to kill Vader in combat a majority of the time, making him not even in the top 10 or 15.

I agree with you, though. Maul being resurrected at all was just plain stupid. The fact that the Emperor knew he was and send Vader anyway, also equally lame.

May I suggest the additions of Grand Admiral Gilad Pellaeon and General Turr Phennir into that list on grounds of sheer badassery?

No.

Originally posted by Faunus
No.

Oh. Okay.

🙁

I think this is the quote in which vader does the far away force choke and my question is is the concensus that vader choked xizor lighyears away, thousands of miles away or what?

"You've been a long time away," said the Emperor. The ancient, withered head slowly nodded. "Many are the stars you travel among."

"All my journeying is in your service." Prince Xizor inclined his head, a courtly signal of submission. The dark serpent of his topknot brushed across his shoulder. "And to the glory of the Empire."

"Well spoken, as always." Emperor Palpatine swiveled his throne toward another section of the immense room. "Whatever else might be said of him, you must agree that the prince has a way with words. Don't you think so, Vader?"

Xizor turned toward the hologram of the dark-caped figure-an intimidatingly life-sized image, transmitted from the Devastator, Lord Vader's personal flagship. Don't try it on this one, Xizor warned himself. He had witnessed too many examples of what happened to those whose words caused the Dark Lord of the Sith to lose patience. The Emperor might be keeping him on a short leash. But one long enough, thought Xizor, to reach my throat.

"Your judgment, my lord, exceeds mine." Vader kept his own words as diplomatically inscrutable as the mask that concealed his face. "You know best where to place your trust."

"Sometimes, Vader, I think you'd prefer it if I trusted no one but you." The Emperor put his fingertips together. Behind him, framed in the towering windows of the throne room, the curved arms of the galaxy extended, like shoals of gems in an ink-black sea. Below the stars, the towers and massive shapes of Imperial City rolled like the crests of a frozen sea across the hidden surface of Coruscant, a monument in durasteel to both the ambition and the grasp of Palpatine. "I see into so many creatures' hearts, and all I find there is fear. Which is as it should be." The deep-set eyes contemplated the empty cage formed by his hands, as though envisioning the worlds bound by the Empire's power. "But when I look into yours, Vader, I see ... something else." Like a hooded mendicant rather than the ruler of worlds, Emperor Palpatine peered through the angles of his fingers. "Something almost like . . . desire."

Prince Xizor managed to keep his own smile from showing. Desire among the Falleen, his species, meant only one thing. His cruel beauty, the sharply chiseled planes of his face, and his regal bearing, combined with a pheromone-rich musk that evaded all conscious senses, were what put a female of any world under his command. Humanoid female, of a type pleasing to his own sense of aesthetics; if the members of the more repulsive of the galaxy's species were similarly affected, that was not something he had yet felt the need to put to the test.

"It is only the desire to serve you," said Lord Vader. "And the Empire."

"Of course; what else could it be?" Palpatine smiled indulgently, an effect no less intimidating than any other expression that moved across his age-creased face. "But I am surrounded by those who wish to serve me. Xizor, for one-" The Emperor's hand gestured toward him. "He says all the same things as you do. If you are closer to what's left of my heart, Vader, if for the moment I place more trust in you than I do in others, it's because of something beyond words."

"Actions," said Xizor with cold hauteur, "indicate more than words. Judge my loyalty by what I achieve for the Empire."

"And what is that?" Vader's image turned the force of his penetrating gaze upon Xizor. "You scurry about on your mysterious, self-appointed errands, your rounds of those whose devotion to our cause is somewhat less than ideal. Fear motivates many creatures, but there are still those who believe their meager cunning can line their pockets. Criminals, conspirators, thieves, and builders of their own little empires-you know too many of those types, Xizor. I sometimes wonder what their attraction is for you."

Standing against Vader-even in this insubstantial form-was like facing radiation hard enough to strip flesh from bone. Not for the first time Xizor felt an invisible hand settle around his throat. His own willpower kept the breath sliding in and out of his lungs. But if Vader were to unleash his complete | wrath, the force of will might not be enough. Xizor had seen others, the highest-ranking officers in the Empire's forces, clutching their throats and gasping for air, writhing like a Dantooinian garfish caught on a barbed trawling line.

It's more about the perception(I don't mean to downplay Vader's power) of distance than actual physical distance.

ie. Battle meditation is equally effective regardless (If the users is skilled enough) of distance.

Originally posted by Gideon
May I suggest the additions of Grand Admiral Gilad Pellaeon and General Turr Phennir into that list on grounds of sheer badassery?

I'd grant Gilad if you grant Shedao...I loved that character. Very badass in his own right. And intelligent, for a Vong warrior.

@ FS: That's a great quote, displaying Vader's vast telekinetic skills.

Also, include Durge for being so ****ing indestructible.

Spoiler Warning: Sidious fanboys, have tissues standing by for Palpatine's final demise.

Debunking the DE Sidious Myth

Premise: Contrary to popular opinion, the Dark Empire incarnation of Darth Sidious is not the most powerful version of Palpatine's character. Specifically, he is less proficient in combat than other incarnations.

Evidentiary Support: I'm going to do this part in sections, given the vast amount of evidence present. We shall start first with the fairly obvious.

1) The Emperor's clone bodies were weaker than his original body. Why? They were unable to handle the amount of energy that Palpatine was channeling from the Dark Side, and decayed at a much faster rate than Palpatine's original body. Despite him having at the very most six years between Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire, Palpatine's body looks as old and ravaged in DE as he does in ROTJ. He looks similar in The Force Unleashed, which takes place six years before ROTJ, as well. This means that Sidious' body aged as much in six years as he had in roughly 70 years of Dark Side training with his original body (I will touch on the number soon). Support for Palpatine's body ravaging quicker in his clones than the original?

Because of imperfections in the cloning process, the new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side. As a result, the Emperor's body would age even more rapidly than the old, becoming corrupted and useless in a few short years.

"Age and physical decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed, like a world oppressed."

I know, you have to be saying, "But Enyalus, decaying might not mean getting weaker. Do you have proof?" Without explicitly saying the exact words, yes -

"Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster."

"Oh, but Enyalus, that's only said once. Doesn't mean much." So, let's have more evidence, saying the same thing!

"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force, with which he could create a new, endless source of clones."

And why, praytell, must he need other genetic resources that are strong in the Force for? We should keep in mind that Dark Empire was written in 1991, which is 8 years before The Phantom Menace came out and explained to us all about Force connections and the midi-chlorians. Taken from Jedi vs. Sith, we learn that the magnitude of the midichlorian count served as a measure of one's Force potential. That Palpatine's clone were less able to handle the energies that he was channeling, decaying faster than his natural body as a result, is circumstantial proof that the clones possessed fewer midi-chlorians than the original host. Ergo, his search for genetic stock naturally strong in the Force (i.e., high Force potential/large midi-chlorian count).

"[Palpatine] kidnapped the best of the Ysanna [humanoids native to Ossus who were naturally Force-sensitive] as genetic stock for a new line of clones."

That each successive clone decayed faster than the last - meaning lower midi-chlorian count - suggests that after each of Palpatine's deaths, his power would actually decrease. While it is true that he might have had more time to learn Force techniques, study holocrons, and gain knowledge of the Force, his overall and sheer Force potential would diminish. This brings me to my second point.

2) Dark Empire was not the first clone Palpatine inhabited, nor was it the first time he had died. To my knowledge, this has never been acknowledged by members of KMC. It is a huge point, and the reason I brought up TFU and his age in point #1. Evidence? Once Luke confronts the Emperor for the first time in DE, he is shocked. And referencing Return of the Jedi, the conversation goes:

Luke - "But I saw you die!"
Sidious - "It was not the first time I died...nor will it be the last."
Sidious - "For many years I have been under a dire necessity. My body has decayed again and again...and each time I have needed to take another."

Thus it is clear that the Darth Sidious shown in ROTJ was also a clone, and that the original Palpatine had died some time before. As point #1 established, clones decay faster and are weaker due to their genetic impurities than Sidious' original body.

I would like to present outside evidence now, to further my case. When TFN.net was asked who was the strongest Sith ever, their official response was: "Palpatine at his peak." Which begs the question, "What was his peak?" It couldn't have been DE, because he is already in his third clone body by the sixth issue - and ROTJ Sidious was also a clone, diminishing his natural power there. It is up to us, then, to determine as accurately and as safely as possible - without prejudice - when exactly is Palpatine at his peak.

We know from DE that Palpatine only realizes the secret to cheating death through the means of clone bodies via the Tedryn Holocron, which he receives in either 19 or 18 BBY, after torturing and killing its owner, Jedi Master Ashka Boda. 19 BBY is also when Revenge of the Sith takes place. Now, we need to ask, when exactly was his first death? How can we determine this? As said before, in TFU, Palpatine looks exactly the same as he does during ROTJ and DE. And both of those were clone bodies. Does this mean when we see him in TFU, he's also a clone? That's terrible logic to use on so important an issue. An issue imperative we get right, if we are to accurately uncover which version was "the strongest Sith ever." But unless I'm missing some quote or evidence, there is nothing that says explicitly when Palpatine's first death is. If I've gotten that wrong, please correct it. This is, as Gideon says, first and foremost a meeting of minds.

My point for #2 is essentially that since we cannot know for certain when Palpatine dies and his Force potential suffers, we must use what we can be absolutely certain of. Therefore, I submit to this body that given the evidence, and the lack of evidence, that ROTS's version of Darth Sidious be considered the peak version of Palpatine and his personal Force power. Given that he receives the holocron in 19 BBY, that ROTS takes place in 19 BBY, and that we do not know when he first cheats death after this - that is his last and most conclusive showing to safely determine his original body's raw power and combat skill.

3) This point is rather short in comparison, because it states the obvious. But I feel I need to point this out, nonetheless. Why is Force potential so important, and the lack thereof? It is true that knowledge equals power, but only to the extent that you are able to control it and contain it. The rest of where that power comes from is your potential with the Force. While Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is second to none and allowed him to even invent techniques so devastating they covered up his lack of raw power (the Force Storm), this will not do him any good in up close, personal combat. As I am arguing,

Originally posted by Me
Specifically, he is less proficient in combat than other incarnations.

4) Incorrect or misconstrued feats attributed to DE Darth Sidious:

a. 'Sidious can disintegrate lightsabers with his Force Lightning.' This is false, in numerous ways. Let's begin with explaining that he only does this once, ever. Moreover, the quote after doing so can be very telling.

Sidious tells Leia after the fact, "Such an old lightsaber is not a worthy weapon for you."

Now, notice several things. First, he calls the lightsaber unworthy (for her). She is barely a Jedi Knight who is not even half trained. And even she's unworthy of that thing? It must be fairly poor, then, as far as weapons go. Why is this? Well, it is "such an old" weapon. Personally I find Palpatine saying that line hypocritical and downright hilarious (seeing as he was about to die again and looked incredibly old and feeble). Now, just how old was Leia's lightsaber?

"The Jedi weapon that Leia received from the fallen Jedi Vima-Da-Boda is about 10,000 years old."

Ah, that's convenient. So, Palpatine destroys a weapon that is ten millenia old. Has to be weak, then, especially if he considers it unworthy for even a partially trained Jedi Knight. How inferior was it? Hmmm...

The very earliest lightsabers were based on the discovery of natural crystals that spontaneously emit powerful bursts of light and energy at their resonant frequencies...when the lightsaber was invented, warriors did not possess the sophisticated technology of today...The energy efficiency of a modern lightsaber is close to 100%."

Continued next post (Message Length Restraints)

Evaluation Continued

Wow! All these questions being answered. It's almost as if I'd thought this out. As you can see, her lightsaber is clearly poor when compared to PT or OT lightsabers or weapons in general.

Another, although arbitrary point to bring up: Leia does have her saber ignited in the scene, but she is not in a combat stance and so, presumably, does not have any kind of force shielding in place. Last point for this myth:

"Palpatine waved his fingers and the ancient weapon [Leia's lightsaber] shattered."

And there you go, folks. Palpatine's Lightning cannot disintegrate lightsabers - it was some form of TK - most probably Force Crush, which destroyed Leia's old, inferior, outdated weapon while she wasn't in a combat position.

b. 'Sidious can disintegrate large metal objects with his Force Lightning.' This is also false, also in numerous ways. Once again, there is only one scene of him supposedly doing this. Which makes it that much easier to refute. Secondly, and most obviously, it is not large. No bigger than some of the metal objects which Darth Vader was tossing at Luke during their duel on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back. The final evidence is irrefutable: Sidious doesn't disintegrate the object at all. Using Force Lightning, Force Crush, or any other ability. "What do you mean, Enyalus? Everyone knows he did. Everyone talks about it." But, from the Dark Empire Sourcebook,

"When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

...He either lets the heavy metal object strike him, or never sees it coming. It doesn't really matter which, though. Subpoint b) is officially debunked.

c. 'Palpatine has total control over the Force Storms he creates.' Also very false. But first, I'd like to address a question some of you may be having right now. "Enyalus, Force Storms are amazingly destructive. It would take a ton of Force reserves and potential to create and control one!" Nice theory...but, not according to Palpatine or the writers of Dark Empire. According to them, when anger is kept in check by a fine intellect, vast powers of Dark Side energy can be unlocked.

"...when the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very center of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm."

And Sidious' own words, taken from The Book of Anger, state: "I have learned that Anger and Will joined together, are the greatest Power."

Not yet convinced that this technique is primarily knowledge-based and not power-based? Let's read once more from The Book of Anger, shall we? Palpatine tells us:

"Using this knowledge I can control the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the very fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."

Meaning that the Force Storm wormholes that Darth Sidious creates are not the product of his personal vast Force power, only a manipulation of outside, pre-existing Dark Side energy. Thus, it is technique and knowledge-based, and not power-based.

Now, I wonder what kind of textual evidence we can find that will back up the fact that Sidious cannot control his Force Storms (or cannot control them well, at least). Will the omniscient writer, speaking directly to the reader do?

"What he also admits in the Book of Anger is that he is not able to completely control such phenomena, once he has triggered their onset. However, in the years since he wrote those words, the Emperor has continued to perfect his Dark Side abilities, and he now boasts to Luke that he has perfect control of his Force Storms! Whether such boasts are true or not (they are not)..."

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen - another DE Sidious myth has been dismantled. However, I'm just like Billy Mayes! "But wait, there's more!"

Please note that subpoint D is more evidentiary speculation than evidentiary support.
d. 'Palpatine's Force Storms destroy everything they touch.' Which is a nice thought, but also false. The Force Storm Sidious used is basically a wormhole. Wikipedia's definition of a wormhole is "a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that is basically a 'shortcut' through space and time. Spacetime can be viewed as a 2D surface, and when 'folded' over, a wormhole bridge can be formed. A wormhole has at least two mouths which are connected to a single throat or tube."

The above scan is Palpatine's first Force Storm in DE. As you can see, it is ripping through the surface of Coruscant as well as sucking up anything in its path. This is how wormholes behave.

This is Luke, inside of the Force Storm, being sucked up by it and transported to an Imperial dungeon ship. As you can see, there are other objects inside with him, which were not destroyed and are not being destroyed at all.

The above image is of Palpatine's final Force Storm, being loosened over Pinnacle Base in an attempt to destroy the New Republic fleet. It's simply a larger version of the first one shown. Due to the high gravity, it looks as though large pieces of ships are being broken off and ripped to pieces. However, keep in mind that while it's clear the Storm is destroying the ships, it is not clear if it is vaporizing or destroying the pieces of those ships. As we saw in the second scan, smaller objects were surviving intact. In the same manner that a tornado can level an entire house off of its foundation, yet leave an egg next door completely unharmed, so too is the manner in which Force Storms work. There is no evidence to suggest, then, that a Force Storm would kill a powerful Force user other than by BFRing (Battle Field Removal) them someplace clever, like say the Mustafar lava pits - or into space without life support. Considering the powerful Force shielding, manipulation of black holes, and Force speed certain characters display, it isn't entirely impossible or unthinkable to imagine someone surviving the initial gravity pull or charging to the center before the pull became too great along it's edges.

5) Location, location, location. It is critical to keep in mind that the majority of Palpatine's impressive feats in DE take place while on Byss, a world which was described as "a whole entirely enveloped in the power of the Dark Side" and as Luke says to R2-D2, "If there's a dark center of the universe, this is it." Despite that huge advantage, before the Emperor enters a new clone body, Leia knocks him out of bed and he can't even stand to go after her, needing to resort to shouting to his guards while still crawling on the ground. The Sourcebook mentions that:

"Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

It goes on to attribute that as the reasons why Sidious was able to casually shatter Leia's lightsaber and easily survive having a cooling unit land on his head. But even so, and even in a new body, Palpatine bests Luke in a duel within three panels. Impressive in and of itself? Yes. However, considering the fact that during their duel aboard the Eclipse II (nowhere near Byss), Luke defeats Palpatine in four panels, it places the Emperor's first victory in serious doubt. This is especially so when you consider all Leia did during the second battle was to help 'clear the shadows' from Luke's mind, not use Battle Meditation. One must also realize that this takes place in 10 ABY, just after the Thrawn Trilogy - which is prior to Luke finding Jedi artifacts and relics, prior to Luke founding the New Jedi Order, and prior to him beginning the Jedi Academy. If we keep in mind what Gideon and others have already mentioned in this thread about Luke during this time, that he had hardly any real skill with a lightsaber, this puts even more doubt into DE Sidious' abilities in combat. Do you think that, say, Yoda would have been able to win the duel on the Eclipse II, given the new information presented? I for one certainly do.

Conclusion: Much like Gideon wanted to set the record straight and make people aware of the fact that Luke is not some Star Wars god, I hope to have done the same thing, by showing everyone that DE Sidious was also not some Dark God capable of WTFPWNing anyone at a whim. He is very much mortal and very much beatable. I see him being used around the forums nowadays and it reminds me of old threads I've read regarding the Ancient Sith, and how Exar Kun could destroy the entire PT Council and Marka Ragnos can annihilate anyone, et cetera. I hope that just as Gideon has enlightened people about Luke, and Lightsnake has done with the Ancient Sith, that I've done exactly that with debunking the numerous 'invincible' myths about Dark Empire Darth Sidious.

So that's what its like to put effort into posts...God, effort blows.

Triple post FTW!

I haven't read it all yet but before I forget this,Leland Chee has said that Sidious first death was on the death star he was not using clones at the time so he was merely lying to Luke.

I would also like to point at the DE Sidious in a newly transfered clone body is DE Sidious at his peak so the body would hardly have enough time to deterioate for him not to face an oppenent in a vs match.

I don't have the time to argue more of your points but you are wrong about his clone body and his how many times he died prior to DE.

Darth Caedus
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Bane
Lord Kas'im
Darth Nihilus
Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Exar Kun

Most of your list would be correct, but excuse me? Kasim and maul ? > vader in the force? No.

As far as saber dueling goes, vader would tool nihilus because we know absolute jack about his saber skills.

And you couldn't have posted this when we were discussing Palpatine... why?

Now we risk going back to him when we're now discussing Vader, though I would very much like to continue this discussion. You do make some surprisingly candid points, though they are interlaced with some woefully ignorant mistakes.

Originally posted by Gideon
And you couldn't have posted this when we were discussing Palpatine... why?

Now we risk going back to him when we're now discussing Vader, though I would very much like to continue this discussion. You do make some surprisingly candid points, though they are interlaced with some woefully ignorant mistakes.

Its just ridiculous.

And now, to vader man, just ignore the post of enyalus because his post contained serious flaws, such as him claiming ROTJ palpatine was a clone when it was made clear by leland chee that he lied to luke and the fact that he is trying to downplay sidious so that(speculation ahead, dont take it too seriously) he would make nihilus seem superior to him.

Vader is badass in the leaked TFU gameplay videos. And holy shit @ the explosive confrontation between the Emperor and Starkiller.

i think Enyalus made some good points. Made the entire argument pretty logically anyway. I know i would like to agree with most of his points. And if he IS correct about the only saber Sidious destroyed was Leia's, and it WAS 10,000 years old, that really would drop that feat in my mind. It also did state, if that quote is correct, that sidous COULD NOT control his force storms, and THAT would make it much less impressive.

I do think he's wrong about one thing though us considering DE sidious a force-god though. I know i didn't myself.

There is no 'Force god.' They're all fallible.

Edit: Since this is part of the Holocron's purpose, Enyalus, I'd like to continue this discussions. But it can't interfere with the one about Vader. So we'll try to juggle two.