Project Holocron

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader is badass in the leaked TFU gameplay videos. And holy shit @ the explosive confrontation between the Emperor and Starkiller.

if you go to gamespot and search for the star wars force unleashed marathon you can see the whole vader stage ( i can't post it cause am to new) for anyone that wants to see it.

I'm amused at how similar the reactions to Enyalus's post are to the ones that Lightsnake was met with two and a half years ago. Personally? I thought it was an excellent post, although I believe that any death of Palpatine's before Return of the Jedi was retconned by Chee.

Then again, I know very little about anything related to DE, so I could be missing a few things. But so far? Very nice.

And I don't think it should be hard managing that sub-argument and Vader's analysis at the same time.

And now, to vader man, just ignore the post of enyalus because his post contained serious flaws,

Enyalus,

Firstly, it is my sad duty to inform you that the Ultimate Visual Guide confirms that Palpatine "does not reveal himself immediately but studies the dark side to become more powerful." Though you have demonstrated a resolve to challenge any and all statements regarding "power," this one is really set in stone. For the record, that part of your argument was something I was hoping you could prove, since it would satisfy the impact of the prophecy of the Chosen One.

Regarding the 'weakness' of Palpatine's clones being a sign of inferiority, you've managed to prove only that Palpatine's clone bodies do not have the same resilience as his natural one. You have not, however, proven that Palpatine's mastery of the Force or overall state of combat is weaker or even the same. In fact, that statement from the Ultimate Visual Guide seems to nail the coffin shut regarding the idea that Palpatine is "weaker" overall. The only thing I can objectively state is weaker about Palpatine is his impact on the Force -- but even then, the omniscient narrator refers to him as a 'dark side nexus.' Moreover, understand that Leland Chee confirmed that Palpatine was lying to Skywalker; his death at the Battle of Endor was the first one.

Regarding the capabilities of the reborn Emperor in combat, where have you proven that Palpatine's clone bodies will tire more? The fact that they age quicker than his natural body due to the potency of the dark side within him does not mean that he'll be reduced to a winded, gasping heap. Moreover, you forget: Palpatine can and will draw heavily upon the Force to compensate for whatever physical handicaps he may or may not possess. Fatigue during battle isn't likely; fatigue after battle, however, maybe.

Regarding the Force Storms and Palpatine's control over them, what are you trying to prove? That the Force Storms aren't Palpatine's raw power manifested, like an explosion of telekinesis or an instinctive lash of Force lightning? Well, duh. We've known that from day one. But it doesn't change the fact that it is the most destructive Force technique in existence, and Palpatine remains the only Force sensitive in the mythos to master it. As far as the control is concerned, since when does lacking perfect control indicate a lack of control all together? Palpatine has failed once to control a Force Storm: when he was assaulted by the combined power of Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa Solo, and her unborn child. Your insinuations that the Emperor will somehow screw one up are preposterous; he manages to generate one without hesitation nor problem after suffering a defeat in lightsaber combat and having his hand hacked off.

Regarding the destructive power of Force Storms, they can disintegrate fleets of ships and tear the surfaces off worlds according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook. That it didn't harm Skywalker isn't a detriment, since Palpatine's intention was to transport Skywalker off of Coruscant and displayed the ability to deposit him within a Lictor-class dungeon ship suggests remarkable control over the Storm itself.

Regarding the powers afforded to the Emperor by Byss, let me remind you that Palpatine himself is responsible for the saturation of dark side energies on the planet. Palpatine, despite the fact that he remained secluded on Coruscant, managed to "transform it into the one of the strongest dark side sites in the entire galaxy" and used the Force to not only leech off of its denizens to increase his vitality, but also to "break their wills" and "enslave them." All of the energies present on Byss come from Palpatine himself. Nothing and no one else.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm amused at how similar the reactions to Enyalus's post are to the ones that Lightsnake was met with two and a half years ago. Personally? I thought it was an excellent post, although I believe that any death of Palpatine's before Return of the Jedi was retconned by Chee.

Not really, no. Lightsnake was bashed, beaten, mocked, and insulted for many, many months by people too ignorant to accept a new method (a better method, really) of thinking. He came and helped show that the old ways were ridiculously flawed and that his alternative was much greater. Enyalus, here, has not suffered that abuse by the rest of us. Nor will he. No one here has "reacted" like Janus and co. did -- Traya, as I recall, suggested that he commit suicide (interesting, since it turns up that she was actually a man pretending to be a woman; in layman's terms: he/she/it is extraordinarily pathetic) -- and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't compare us to them.

As far as his post is concerned, I sympathize with his premise: proving the reborn Emperor to be weaker than before his death would satisfy the prophecy of the Chosen One and make Anakin's sacrifice even greater. The problem is that most of his major premises are incredibly flawed. The post itself was, however, a sign of a deep intellect, though it needs a great deal of polish.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not really, no. Lightsnake was bashed, beaten, mocked, and insulted for many, many months by people too ignorant to accept a new method (a better method, really) of thinking. He came and helped show that the old ways were ridiculously flawed and that his alternative was much greater. Enyalus, here, has not suffered that abuse by the rest of us. Nor will he. No one here has "reacted" like Janus and co. did -- Traya, as I recall, suggested that he commit suicide (interesting, since it turns up that she was actually a man pretending to be a woman; in layman's terms: he/she/it is extraordinarily pathetic) -- and I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't compare us to them.

Ivalice deciding to "ignore" Enyalus's post and EH's address of only one minor point were what I was amused by.

Originally posted by Faunus
Not you, silly. Skepticism =/= bashing.

Ivalice deciding to "ignore" Enyalus's post and EH's address of only one minor point were what I was amused by.

Well, I'm pissed, lemme tell you. Ever since LS lost the DESB download I sent him... I can't get it back... 🙁

Originally posted by Enyalus
Spoiler Warning: Sidious fanboys, have tissues standing by for Palpatine's final demise.

[b] Debunking the DE Sidious Myth

Premise: Contrary to popular opinion, the Dark Empire incarnation of Darth Sidious is not the most powerful version of Palpatine's character. Specifically, he is less proficient in combat than other incarnations.

Enyalus, you are aware that in the Complete Visual Guide, it states that Palpatine has grown more powerful than ever?

Evidentiary Support: I'm going to do this part in sections, given the vast amount of evidence present. We shall start first with the fairly obvious.

1) The Emperor's clone bodies were weaker than his original body. Why? They were unable to handle the amount of energy that Palpatine was channeling from the Dark Side, and decayed at a much faster rate than Palpatine's original body. Despite him having at the very most six years between Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire, Palpatine's body looks as old and ravaged in DE as he does in ROTJ. He looks similar in The Force Unleashed, which takes place six years before ROTJ, as well. This means that Sidious' body aged as much in six years as he had in roughly 70 years of Dark Side training with his original body (I will touch on the number soon). Support for Palpatine's body ravaging quicker in his clones than the original?

Because of imperfections in the cloning process, the new vessel was more vulnerable to the depredations of the Dark Side. As a result, the Emperor's body would age even more rapidly than the old, becoming corrupted and useless in a few short years.

"Age and physical decay hastened their pace, and his body collapsed, like a world oppressed."

I know, you have to be saying, "But Enyalus, decaying might not mean getting weaker. Do you have proof?" Without explicitly saying the exact words, yes -

"Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster."

"Oh, but Enyalus, that's only said once. Doesn't mean much." So, let's have more evidence, saying the same thing!

"...his current clone, so far from the original, was decaying at an advanced rate. He needed fresh genetic stock, strong in the Force, with which he could create a new, endless source of clones."

And why, praytell, must he need other genetic resources that are strong in the Force for?

We should keep in mind that Dark Empire was written in 1991, which is 8 years before The Phantom Menace came out and explained to us all about Force connections and the midi-chlorians. Taken from Jedi vs. Sith, we learn that the magnitude of the midichlorian count served as a measure of one's Force potential. That Palpatine's clone were less able to handle the energies that he was channeling, decaying faster than his natural body as a result, is circumstantial proof that the clones possessed fewer midi-chlorians than the original host. Ergo, his search for genetic stock naturally strong in the Force (i.e., high Force potential/large midi-chlorian count).

"[Palpatine] kidnapped the best of the Ysanna [humanoids native to Ossus who were naturally Force-sensitive] as genetic stock for a new line of clones."

That each successive clone decayed faster than the last - meaning lower midi-chlorian count - suggests that after each of Palpatine's deaths, his power would actually decrease. While it is true that he might have had more time to learn Force techniques, study holocrons, and gain knowledge of the Force, his overall and sheer Force potential would diminish. This brings me to my second point.

2) Dark Empire was not the first clone Palpatine inhabited, nor was it the first time he had died. To my knowledge, this has never been acknowledged by members of KMC. It is a huge point, and the reason I brought up TFU and his age in point #1. Evidence? Once Luke confronts the Emperor for the first time in DE, he is shocked. And referencing Return of the Jedi, the conversation goes:

Luke - "But I saw you die!"
Sidious - "It was not the first time I died...nor will it be the last."
Sidious - "For many years I have been under a dire necessity. My body has decayed again and again...and each time I have needed to take another."

Thus it is clear that the Darth Sidious shown in ROTJ was also a clone, and that the original Palpatine had died some time before. As point #1 established, clones decay faster and are weaker due to their genetic impurities than Sidious' original body.

I would like to present outside evidence now, to further my case. When TFN.net was asked who was the strongest Sith ever, their official response was: "Palpatine at his peak." Which begs the question, "What was his peak?" It couldn't have been DE, because he is already in his third clone body by the sixth issue - and ROTJ Sidious was also a clone, diminishing his natural power there. It is up to us, then, to determine as accurately and as safely as possible - without prejudice - when exactly is Palpatine at his peak.

We know from DE that Palpatine only realizes the secret to cheating death through the means of clone bodies via the Tedryn Holocron, which he receives in either 19 or 18 BBY, after torturing and killing its owner, Jedi Master Ashka Boda. 19 BBY is also when Revenge of the Sith takes place. Now, we need to ask, when exactly was his first death? How can we determine this? As said before, in TFU, Palpatine looks exactly the same as he does during ROTJ and DE. And both of those were clone bodies. Does this mean when we see him in TFU, he's also a clone? That's terrible logic to use on so important an issue. An issue imperative we get right, if we are to accurately uncover which version was "the strongest Sith ever." But unless I'm missing some quote or evidence, there is nothing that says explicitly when Palpatine's first death is. If I've gotten that wrong, please correct it. This is, as Gideon says, first and foremost a meeting of minds.

My point for #2 is essentially that since we cannot know for certain when Palpatine dies and his Force potential suffers, we must use what we can be absolutely certain of. Therefore, I submit to this body that given the evidence, and the lack of evidence, that ROTS's version of Darth Sidious be considered the peak version of Palpatine and his personal Force power. Given that he receives the holocron in 19 BBY, that ROTS takes place in 19 BBY, and that we do not know when he first cheats death after this - that is his last and most conclusive showing to safely determine his original body's raw power and combat skill.

3) This point is rather short in comparison, because it states the obvious. But I feel I need to point this out, nonetheless. Why is Force potential so important, and the lack thereof? It is true that knowledge equals power, but only to the extent that you are able to control it and contain it. The rest of where that power comes from is your potential with the Force. While Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is second to none and allowed him to even invent techniques so devastating they covered up his lack of raw power (the Force Storm), this will not do him any good in up close, personal combat. As I am arguing,

[/b]
With less Force potential comes less Force reserves, for one. Sidious, in a duel or battle situation in his Dark Empire form, will tire quicker than other versions. Moreover, it means less Force speed to summon, less Force strength, softer Force shielding, and inferior precognition - which is absolutely crucial in lightsaber battles. These are tremendous disadvantages for DE (or any clone) Darth Sidious to overcome.

4) Incorrect or misconstrued feats attributed to DE Darth Sidious:

a. 'Sidious can disintegrate lightsabers with his Force Lightning.' This is false, in numerous ways. Let's begin with explaining that he only does this once, ever. Moreover, the quote after doing so can be very telling.

Sidious tells Leia after the fact, "Such an old lightsaber is not a worthy weapon for you."

Now, notice several things. First, he calls the lightsaber unworthy (for her).

She is barely a Jedi Knight who is not even half trained. And even she's unworthy of that thing?

It must be fairly poor, then, as far as weapons go. Why is this? Well, it is "such an old" weapon.

Now, just how old was Leia's lightsaber?

"The Jedi weapon that Leia received from the fallen Jedi Vima-Da-Boda is about 10,000 years old."

Ah, that's convenient. So, Palpatine destroys a weapon that is ten millenia old. Has to be weak, then, especially if he considers it unworthy for even a partially trained Jedi Knight.

How inferior was it? Hmmm...

The very earliest lightsabers were based on the discovery of natural crystals that spontaneously emit powerful bursts of light and energy at their resonant frequencies...when the lightsaber was invented, warriors did not possess the sophisticated technology of today...The energy efficiency of a modern lightsaber is close to 100%."

Originally posted by Enyalus
Evaluation Continued

Wow! All these questions being answered. It's almost as if I'd thought this out. As you can see, her lightsaber is clearly poor when compared to PT or OT lightsabers or weapons in general.

Another, although arbitrary point to bring up: Leia does have her saber ignited in the scene, but she is [b]not in a combat stance and so, presumably, does not have any kind of force shielding in place. Last point for this myth:

"Palpatine waved his fingers and the ancient weapon [Leia's lightsaber] shattered."

And there you go, folks. Palpatine's Lightning cannot disintegrate lightsabers - it was some form of TK - most probably Force Crush, which destroyed Leia's old, inferior, outdated weapon while she wasn't in a combat position.

b. 'Sidious can disintegrate large metal objects with his Force Lightning.' This is also false, also in numerous ways. Once again, there is only one scene of him supposedly doing this. Which makes it that much easier to refute. Secondly, and most obviously, it is not large. No bigger than some of the metal objects which Darth Vader was tossing at Luke during their duel on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back. The final evidence is irrefutable: Sidious doesn't disintegrate the object at all. Using Force Lightning, Force Crush, or any other ability. "What do you mean, Enyalus? Everyone knows he did. Everyone talks about it." But, from the Dark Empire Sourcebook,

"When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

...He either lets the heavy metal object strike him, or never sees it coming. It doesn't really matter which, though. Subpoint b) is officially debunked.

c. 'Palpatine has total control over the Force Storms he creates.' Also very false. But first, I'd like to address a question some of you may be having right now. "Enyalus, Force Storms are amazingly destructive. It would take a ton of Force reserves and potential to create and control one!" Nice theory...but, not according to Palpatine or the writers of Dark Empire. According to them, when anger is kept in check by a fine intellect, vast powers of Dark Side energy can be unlocked.

"...when the Force is sensed and moved by emotion, from the very center of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm."

And Sidious' own words, taken from The Book of Anger, state: "I have learned that Anger and Will joined together, are the greatest Power."

Not yet convinced that this technique is primarily knowledge-based and not power-based? Let's read once more from The Book of Anger, shall we? Palpatine tells us:

"Using this knowledge I can control the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the very fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."

Meaning that the Force Storm wormholes that Darth Sidious creates are not the product of his personal vast Force power, only a manipulation of outside, pre-existing Dark Side energy. Thus, it is technique and knowledge-based, and not power-based.

Now, I wonder what kind of textual evidence we can find that will back up the fact that Sidious cannot control his Force Storms (or cannot control them well, at least). Will the omniscient writer, speaking directly to the reader do?

"What he also admits in the Book of Anger is that he is not able to completely control such phenomena, once he has triggered their onset. However, in the years since he wrote those words, the Emperor has continued to perfect his Dark Side abilities, and he now boasts to Luke that he has perfect control of his Force Storms! Whether such boasts are true or not (they are not)..."

Regarding what Schwarz said about Vader's combat abilities and my rating of them - they've already been addressed, for the most part. If Kas'im's Force shields held without problem against Bane's Force wave that was able to explode and destroy the foundation to an entire temple, it stands to reason that Vader isn't going to be able to ragdoll him around or Force Choke him. And considering Vader has demonstrated extreme problems in defending himself against Jar'Kai - a form which Kas'im is an extraordinary master of - Vader would lose.

As for Darth Traya beating Darth Vader, not only does she possess more exotic techniques than him, such as Force Lightning and Force Sever, but she's also able to wield four lightsabers - which I already gave as my original reason for her winning - Vader doesn't have the speed to parry them all.

And in regard to Darth Nihilus, he was able to hold off for a substantial amount of time a powerful Jedi Knight, his own gifted Sith apprentice, and the leader and supreme general of the Mandalorian army (the same Mandalorians who kill Jedi for sport) - all with a lightsaber. Not only that, but while he was in a severely starved and severely weakened state. Imagine a healthy Nihilus. In comparison, Vader was almost killed by two separate bounty hunters, and a Tusken Raider. Also, let's not act like Nihilus actually needs a lightsaber to beat Vader.

Originally posted by Gideon
Firstly, it is my sad duty to inform you that the Ultimate Visual Guide confirms that Palpatine "does not reveal himself immediately but studies the dark side to become more powerful." Though you have demonstrated a resolve to challenge any and all statements regarding "power," this one is really set in stone. For the record, that part of your argument was something I was hoping you could prove, since it would satisfy the impact of the prophecy of the Chosen One.

I don't understand what your quote proves...?

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding the 'weakness' of Palpatine's clones being a sign of inferiority, you've managed to prove only that Palpatine's clone bodies do not have the same resilience as his natural one. You have not, however, proven that Palpatine's mastery of the Force or overall state of combat is weaker or even the same. In fact, that statement from the Ultimate Visual Guide seems to nail the coffin shut regarding the idea that Palpatine is "weaker" overall. The only thing I can objectively state is weaker about Palpatine is his impact on the Force

They don't have the same resilience, true. They are more easily able to be ravaged by the Force. This means that, obviously, they are not as powerful. And the textual evidence I quoted supports this. They were getting farther and farther away from the original. The fact that he needed new genetic material that was strong in the Force. Because why? Obviously the clones no longer were [strong in the Force]. When we apply what we learned about midichlorians from The Phantom Menace and Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, we understand that midi-chlorians control how strong someone can be in the force, and the lower the midi-chlorian count, the less Force potential. His impact on the Force only confirms this further. Thus, he has less power.

I've already granted that he has more knowledge in his DE form, though. And the fact that he's able to invent a technique like the Force Storm means that yes, his Force mastery is greater. But clearly, he does not have the power to support it - as is evidenced by his decay and his desparate search for a template body with a high midi-chlorian count (something equal to or greater than what his original body possessed).

Originally posted by Gideon
Moreover, understand that Leland Chee confirmed that Palpatine was lying to Skywalker; his death at the Battle of Endor was the first one.

I wasn't aware of that interview or quote (and don't know where it would be found). But thank you, and others, for informing me of it. It definitely sounds like a retcon to me...as was said before, this a meeting of minds and ideas. I'm glad for the clarification.

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding the capabilities of the reborn Emperor in combat, where have you proven that Palpatine's clone bodies will tire more? The fact that they age quicker than his natural body due to the potency of the dark side within him does not mean that he'll be reduced to a winded, gasping heap. Moreover, you forget: Palpatine can and will draw heavily upon the Force to compensate for whatever physical handicaps he may or may not possess. Fatigue during battle isn't likely; fatigue after battle, however, maybe.

I have shown that the clones are weaker in the Force and are a long ways off from his original body. As stated, this means less Force potential, which means less Force reserves, which means a lessened ability to draw upon the Force, et cetera. See my original post for more reasons, but yes, I believe I have proven it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding the Force Storms and Palpatine's control over them, what are you trying to prove? That the Force Storms aren't Palpatine's raw power manifested, like an explosion of telekinesis or an instinctive lash of Force lightning? Well, duh. We've known that from day one.

I'm happy to know that you knew this. Others may have not. I wanted to show that creating a Force Storm didn't depend so much on raw power level and potential as on knowledge and mastery of the Force. That was the point.

Originally posted by Gideon
But it doesn't change the fact that it is the most destructive Force technique in existence, and Palpatine remains the only Force sensitive in the mythos to master it...Your insinuations that the Emperor will somehow screw one up are preposterous; he manages to generate one without hesitation nor problem after suffering a defeat in lightsaber combat and having his hand hacked off.

I acknowledge that it is the most destructive Force technique known. I think I even say so in my previous post. As for any insinuations on my part, I didn't mean it to sound so strong. I am merely mentioning that there is a possibility that Palpatine is not able to control all of his Force Storms, all of the time. This is backed up by the text.

"What he also admits in the Book of Anger is that he is not able to completely control such phenomena, once he has triggered their onset."

Originally posted by Gideon
Regarding the destructive power of Force Storms, they can disintegrate fleets of ships and tear the surfaces off worlds according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook. That it didn't harm Skywalker isn't a detriment, since Palpatine's intention was to transport Skywalker off of Coruscant and displayed the ability to deposit him within a Lictor-class dungeon ship suggests remarkable control over the Storm itself.

In my defense, I gave everyone a warning prior to that subpoint that it was more speculation than evidence. I still see no reason why a powerful Force user's shields would not hold.

Originally posted by Gideon
All of the energies present on Byss come from Palpatine himself. Nothing and no one else.

It seems as though you're implying that all of the Dark Side energy and power on Byss is an extension of Palpatine and thus part of his power. This is untrue. Palpatine is responsible for the power of the Dark Side there. Palpatine is the cause of the Dark Side there. Just like the cause of Malachor's Dark power was the millions of people who were killed there, or the cause of Korriban's massive Dark Side power was because the Dark Lords of the Sith were burried there and traveled there for centuries. If what you seem to say about Byss were true (I hope that isn't what you're saying), then Coruscant and the Death Star, among others, would have radiated with Dark Side power...Coruscant even more so.

Let's not forget that Byss is where Palpatine had many, if not all of his Sith items, artifacts, holocrons, Dark Side adepts, Sith cloning and alchemy going on - all contributing to Byss' affinity for the Dark Side.

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen - another DE Sidious myth has been dismantled. However, I'm just like Billy Mayes! "But wait, there's more!"

Please note that subpoint D is more evidentiary speculation than evidentiary support.
d. 'Palpatine's Force Storms destroy everything they touch.' Which is a nice thought, but also false. The Force Storm Sidious used is basically a wormhole. Wikipedia's definition of a wormhole is "a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that is basically a 'shortcut' through space and time. Spacetime can be viewed as a 2D surface, and when 'folded' over, a wormhole bridge can be formed. A wormhole has at least two mouths which are connected to a single throat or tube.

The above scan is Palpatine's first Force Storm in DE. As you can see, it is ripping through the surface of Coruscant as well as sucking up anything in its path. This is how wormholes behave.

This is Luke, inside of the Force Storm, being sucked up by it and transported to an Imperial dungeon ship. As you can see, there are other objects inside with him, which were not destroyed and are not being destroyed at all.

The above image is of Palpatine's final Force Storm, being loosened over Pinnacle Base in an attempt to destroy the New Republic fleet. It's simply a larger version of the first one shown. Due to the high gravity, it looks as though large pieces of ships are being broken off and ripped to pieces. However, keep in mind that while it's clear the Storm is destroying the ships, it is not clear if it is vaporizing or destroying the pieces of those ships. As we saw in the second scan, smaller objects were surviving intact. In the same manner that a tornado can level an entire house off of its foundation, yet leave an egg next door completely unharmed, so too is the manner in which Force Storms work. There is no evidence to suggest, then, that a Force Storm would kill a powerful Force user other than by BFRing (Battle Field Removal) them someplace clever, like say the Mustafar lava pits - or into space without life support. Considering the powerful Force shielding, manipulation of black holes, and Force speed certain characters display, it isn't entirely impossible or unthinkable to imagine someone surviving the initial gravity pull or charging to the center before the pull became too great along it's edges.

5) Location, location, location. It is critical to keep in mind that the majority of Palpatine's impressive feats in DE take place while on Byss, a world which was described as "a whole entirely enveloped in the power of the Dark Side" and as Luke says to R2-D2, "If there's a dark center of the universe, this is it." Despite that huge advantage, before the Emperor enters a new clone body, Leia knocks him out of bed and he can't even stand to go after her, needing to resort to shouting to his guards while still crawling on the ground. The Sourcebook mentions that:

"Despite his clone's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulnerable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers there was more of an afterthought than an exercise."

It goes on to attribute that as the reasons why Sidious was able to casually shatter Leia's lightsaber and easily survive having a cooling unit land on his head. But even so, and even in a new body, Palpatine bests Luke in a duel within three panels. Impressive in and of itself? Yes.

However, considering the fact that during their duel aboard the Eclipse II (nowhere near Byss), Luke defeats Palpatine in four panels, it places the Emperor's first victory in serious doubt.

This is especially so when you consider all Leia did during the second battle was to help 'clear the shadows' from Luke's mind, not use Battle Meditation. One must also realize that this takes place in 10 ABY, just after the Thrawn Trilogy - which is prior to Luke finding Jedi artifacts and relics, prior to Luke founding the New Jedi Order, and prior to him beginning the Jedi Academy. If we keep in mind what Gideon and others have already mentioned in this thread about Luke during this time, that he had hardly any real skill with a lightsaber, this puts even more doubt into DE Sidious' abilities in combat.

Do you think that, say, Yoda would have been able to win the duel on the Eclipse II, given the new information presented? I for one certainly do.

Conclusion: Much like Gideon wanted to set the record straight and make people aware of the fact that Luke is not some Star Wars god, I hope to have done the same thing, by showing everyone that DE Sidious was also not some Dark God capable of WTFPWNing anyone at a whim. He is very much mortal and very much beatable. I see him being used around the forums nowadays and it reminds me of old threads I've read regarding the Ancient Sith, and how Exar Kun could destroy the entire PT Council and Marka Ragnos can annihilate anyone, et cetera. I hope that just as Gideon has enlightened people about Luke, and Lightsnake has done with the Ancient Sith, that I've done exactly that with debunking the numerous 'invincible' myths about Dark Empire Darth Sidious. [/B]

He is still more powerful, possibly by a good amount, than any other Force User in the series, save for Luke.

Enyalus, you'll have enough on your hands trying to refute Lightsnake. Once I get back from town, you and I will finish our own debate.

Okay. Here we go with LS's stuff:

Originally posted by LS
Enyalus, you are aware that in the Complete Visual Guide, it states that Palpatine has grown more powerful than ever?

Because he can create Force Storms that are more destructive than anything else we've seen? Because he can cheat death now? Because he might be able to kill just about any one or anything from lightyears away? (He's on Byss when he summons the Force Storm on Coruscant.) My point was in showing that in combat, such as what we have in the vs. forum, he is inferior to other incarnations.

Originally posted by LS
1. Clones are not as powerful as actual flesh. Palpatine has become, since his original body's death, more spirit than person if we are to believe the Emperor's Pawns. His power is so great that mere flesh cannot hold it and as clones are weaker than normal bodies, they will decay faster.

I've already addressed this issue in my initial post and in my response to Gideon. His clones are not as powerful as actually flesh. Or do you want to argue that physically speaking, the original clone troopers were not as powerful as Jango Fett? The reason why is because they were getting farther and farther, genetically, from Palpatine's original body. Less midi-chlorians. Less Force potential. Less ability to handle the amount of Dark Side power which Palpatine was used to channeling.

I know you bring this up several other times in your reply, but this is the only time I'm going to point it out. You actually help out this stance of mine by saying things like "For starters, he needs the body of a Skywalker to actually remain in and won't decay as quickly." Because that would mean high Force potential. Strong in the Force. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that he kidnapped the Ysanna for genetic stock, also.

Originally posted by LS
The midichlorian count of each clone is immaterial. As stated before, Palpatine has been described as 'more powerful than ever' by Dark Empire, his SPIRIT is what is important now, not the clones. They are merely placeholders.

Firstly, can you prove his spirit has grown in strength? Why would his spirit strengthen after each death, anyway (since each clone decays faster). That line of thought makes zero sense. That midi-chlorians, which influence Force potential, are irrelevant...proof of this? As for your quote, let's give everyone the full meaning:

"There is no glimmer of hope in this ship...only the Dark Side of the Force...more powerful than ever."

For one, that was stated from Leia's POV. Leia's last meeting with the Emperor was when he was nearly dead (about to transition into another clone). Furthermore, Luke is also on that ship, more deeply submerged in the Dark Side than ever before, to the point that he actually duels Leia. There's your explanation; it wasn't only Palpatine she was sensing, but Luke - the most powerful Force user in history, gone to the Dark Side.

Originally posted by LS
Nothing-not a thing- indicates that the clones make him weaker when he says that to him, flesh is basically a suit he wears to persist in the world.

Again, proof that midichlorians and a physically inferior body make zero difference, and even improve Palpatine's power? There isn't any. And what you are essentially saying is that every time Palpatine dies, he becomes stronger, given that the clones decay even faster each time. That's illogical.

Originally posted by LS
In close combat, Palpaitne has all his exceptional abilities-and considering Lucas said only Mace and Yoda can compete with him, that's pretty exceptional.

So because Luke beats him in a duel, does that mean GL was lying? I don't get your point here - we all know Palpatine's a great duelist. My point is that he's inferior to his other incarnations as far as combat goes.

Originally posted by LS
In Dark Empire, his superior power allows him to fight to far faster and greater degrees to empower himself. his younger body-and he fights when his body is still at the physical age of later teens, it's going to have more stamina and speed than his usual elderly, decaying form.

Because you said so? Proof of this? I've already shown evidence to support my theory in the forms of text and scans. Midichlorians control Force potential. Less of it means less raw power to utilize.

Originally posted by LS
Ok, if an original, 25,000 year old saber works with no problems, I'm seeing no reason to believe there'd be issues with a 10,000 year old one

That's your answer to my post which explictly states that modern lightsabers are more efficient and better than ancient lightsabers? Your assertion, therefore, is wrong.

Originally posted by LS
force crush? he flicks a finger, he doesn't clench a fist. The inferior nature of the weapon should hardly matter, either, all things considered.
This technique hasn't been demonstrated before or since.

Whatever the nature of the technique, it isn't Lightning, as most have said. Moreover, the technique was only possible because he was on such a Dark Side rich world. Here is the full quote from the Dark Empire Sourcebook:

"Despite his clones's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise. When Leia Organa Solo brandished a lightsaber at him, Palpatine waved his fingers and the ancient weapon shattered. When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

Originally posted by LS
The thing is visibly disintegrating in the panel, En....Ok, I'm finding it hard to imagine your point about him not even noticing it a bit sketchy. A powerful Sith isn't going to have a problem noticing Leia trying that. If he lets it strike him, then it also ruins your point about him being not as powerful since he's letting that much strike him right on the skull with NO ill effects.
And then we clearly see it disintegrating in the comic

Once again, such immunity to effects were due to the Emperor being on Byss. Moreover, no, it was not disintegrating. The end which looks hallowed out, with pieces of it coming off, is because it was attached to a large beam on that side, which Leia separates it from.

Check the red circles.

Originally posted by LS
This is getting incredibly biased, Enyalus...they are referred to as possibly the most powerful Dark Side technique known.

Duh?

Originally posted by LS
Not only are Force Storms known to require incredible power-anger and willpower ARE power in the Dark Side

That's ridiculous. Yes, anger is 'of' the Dark Side. But anyone has the ability to generate it. Anyone getting pissed off, Jedi, Sith, or non-Force sensitive feeds the Dark Side. The fact that his willpower is able to keep it relatively in check is impressive. Willpower is essentially his strong mind and intellect, in this case. It is not indicative of his power in the Dark Side. It's indicative of his knowledge, finesse and mastery of the Dark Side.

"Using this knowledge I can control the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the very fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."

Palpatine himself says that the power to create such storms doesn't come from within himself right there in that line. Once again, I'm quoting evidence, not opinion.

Originally posted by LS
Now this's getting a bit silly. Only because he's on Byss, he's being so powerful?

Given that the reasoning behind Palpatine's two "uber" techniques are explained away by the writer using the logic that he was on Byss, in the Byss article of the Dark Empire Sourcebook, yes.

Originally posted by LS
We are firmly aware what happens here. BOTH Palpatine and Luke achieve firm states of oneness with the Light and Dark in their duel here. Panels does not correlate to time as the audiobook states Leia simply clears the Darkness from Luke's mind while the two battle and the fighting is all them. She is unable to even SEE them or feel anything but incredible emanations of power.
This state fades when Palpatine loses the duel. Between two titans of light and Dark, one wins.

Similar to the hyperbole referring to Palpatine as 'the Shadow' in the ROTS novelization, and 'Black hole in the Force', etc, elsewhere?

Originally posted by LS
1. DE issue 1 states Luke is incredibly powerful with the Force, as seen when he gestures and blows apart an army of freaking battle droids, a technique VERY difficult for even masters of old...and he's described as EVEN MORE skilled with the lightsaber. In Courtship of Princess Leia, he smacks aside a Nightsister's lightning-something she SPECIALIZED in and beheaded her. Luke's power is almost instinctual, but it's significant. So his knowledge base isn't incredible, and?

So by DE Luke is already the most powerful Jedi ever? Our conclusions of Luke's power and skill in this very thread say differently.

As for your problem with my subpoint D, I can't make a solid case for that particular argument, and conceded it was speculation in my original post. 🙂

Question, though: Am I the only one going to take up this particular side of the argument? Because if each of you are going to voice the same complaints I've already dealt with and disproven, I'm going to be very irritable. 😠

I'm on your side in that I think you bring up several good points, although I'm not sure on the argument as a whole.

Plus, I'm not nearly as familiar with the material as you guys are, so I can't reasonably step in.

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm on your side in that I think you bring up several good points, although I'm not sure on the argument as a whole.

Plus, I'm not nearly as familiar with the material as you guys are, so I can't reasonably step in.

Right. But I'm your avatar, and what I'm doing is an extension of your will. Of course I'd expect you to be on my side.

Gee, Enyalus, so you're Faunus' slave?! 😆

Now, for this argument, as much as I would love DE Sidious to be weaker than his movie counterparts, I really think that he is Sidious at his peak. Still, I won't get tangled in your debate with Gideon and Lightsnake.

You agree that Sidious, in his peak incarnation (whatever that is, according to you) is the numero uno Sith, right?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You agree that Sidious, in his peak incarnation (whatever that is, according to you) is the numero uno Sith, right?

Absolutely. We have sources stating as much (one of which I quoted in my initial post). I'm not trying to make Sidious look bad or detract from his power as much as I'm trying to get this Sidious rabid fanboy-wanking uber power bias under control.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay. Here we go with LS's stuff:

Because he can create Force Storms that are more destructive than anything else we've seen? Because he can cheat death now? Because he might be able to kill just about any one or anything from lightyears away? (He's on Byss when he summons the Force Storm on Coruscant.) My point was in showing that in combat, such as what we have in the vs. forum, he is inferior to other incarnations.

[/b]

I've already addressed this issue in my initial post and in my response to Gideon. His clones are not as powerful as actually flesh. Or do you want to argue that physically speaking, the original clone troopers were not as powerful as Jango Fett? The reason why is because they were getting farther and farther, genetically, from Palpatine's original body. Less midi-chlorians. Less Force potential. Less ability to handle the amount of Dark Side power which Palpatine was used to channeling.

I know you bring this up several other times in your reply, but this is the only time I'm going to point it out. You actually help out this stance of mine by saying things like "For starters, he needs the body of a Skywalker to actually remain in and won't decay as quickly." Because that would mean high Force potential.

Strong in the Force. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that he kidnapped the Ysanna for genetic stock, also.

[/b]

Firstly, can you prove his spirit has grown in strength? Why would his spirit strengthen after each death, anyway (since each clone decays faster).

That line of thought makes zero sense. That midi-chlorians, which influence Force potential, are irrelevant...proof of this?

As for your quote, let's give everyone the full meaning:

"There is no glimmer of hope in this ship...only the Dark Side of the Force...more powerful than ever."

For one, that was stated from Leia's POV. Leia's last meeting with the Emperor was when he was nearly dead (about to transition into another clone). Furthermore, Luke is also on that ship, more deeply submerged in the Dark Side than ever before, to the point that he actually duels Leia. There's your explanation; it wasn't only Palpatine she was sensing, but Luke - the most powerful Force user in history, gone to the Dark Side.

[/b]

Again, proof that midichlorians and a physically inferior body make zero difference, and even improve Palpatine's power?

There isn't any. And what you are essentially saying is that every time Palpatine dies, he becomes stronger, given that the clones decay even faster each time. That's illogical.

[/b]

So because Luke beats him in a duel, does that mean GL was lying? I don't get your point here - we all know Palpatine's a great duelist. My point is that he's inferior to his other incarnations as far as combat goes.

[/b]

Because you said so? Proof of this? I've already shown evidence to support my theory in the forms of text and scans.

Midichlorians control Force potential. Less of it means less raw power to utilize.

[/b]

That's your answer to my post which explictly states that modern lightsabers are more efficient and better than ancient lightsabers? Your assertion, therefore, is wrong.

[/b]

Whatever the nature of the technique, it isn't Lightning, as most have said. Moreover, the technique was only possible because he was on such a Dark Side rich world. Here is the full quote from the Dark Empire Sourcebook:

"Despite his clones's rapid deterioration, Palpatine seemed invulernable while on Byss, and his use of Force powers was more of an afterthought than an exercise. When Leia Organa Solo brandished a lightsaber at him, Palpatine waved his fingers and the ancient weapon shattered. When Leia tried to kill the Emperor by dropping a cooling unit on him, Palpatine shrugged off the crushing impact of a ton of machinery."

[/b]

Once again, such immunity to effects were due to the Emperor being on Byss.

Moreover, no, it was not disintegrating. The end which looks hallowed out, with pieces of it coming off, is because it was attached to a large beam on that side, which Leia separates it from.

Check the red circles.

That's ridiculous. Yes, anger is 'of' the Dark Side. But anyone has the ability to generate it.

Anyone getting pissed off, Jedi, Sith, or non-Force sensitive feeds the Dark Side. The fact that his willpower is able to keep it relatively in check is impressive. Willpower is essentially his strong mind and intellect, in this case. It is not indicative of his power in the Dark Side. It's indicative of his knowledge, finesse and mastery of the Dark Side.

"Using this knowledge I can control the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the very fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms."

Palpatine himself says that the power to create such storms doesn't come from within himself right there in that line. Once again, I'm quoting evidence, not opinion.

[/b]

Given that the reasoning behind Palpatine's two "uber" techniques are explained away by the writer using the logic that he was on Byss, in the Byss article of the Dark Empire Sourcebook, yes.

[/b]

Similar to the hyperbole referring to Palpatine as 'the Shadow' in the ROTS novelization, and 'Black hole in the Force', etc, elsewhere?

[/b]

So by DE Luke is already the most powerful Jedi ever?

Our conclusions of Luke's power and skill in this very thread say differently.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Absolutely. We have sources stating as much (one of which I quoted in my initial post). I'm not trying to make Sidious look bad or detract from his power as much as I'm trying to get this Sidious rabid fanboy-wanking uber power bias under control.

You are using one or two sources here, En, and frankly, a lot of them are inconclusive. several outright state you're wrong-Ultimate Visual Guide, again.

Palpatine is the most powerful there is and he just gets stronger. Most of us have a realistic grasp of this's all.