Project Holocron

Started by Lightsnake51 pages

Originally posted by truejedi
in response to vader, i'm not really sure where to start. I would make the argument that ROTJ vader is maybe stronger than ROTJ sidious, or at least more aware, because he beat sidious without a hand, and without a lightsaber....

He caught him off guard there, at a time when Palpatine could least expect it and still died of the injuries...Palpatine lost it with torturing Luke and didn't sense Vader's change of heart.

Lucas also stated Vader's potential was only 80 percent of Palp...that makes him weaker


He also had the ability to hide his feelis from sidious about overthrowing him for over 20 years.

he did not such thing. Palpatine was well aware of Vader's feelings on the matter and kept an eye on him with it

The second controversial thing i'll say is perhaps vader DID NOT want to overthrow the emperor as much as he claimed he did. He never did make the attempt, and given several chances, he did not make the attempt with marek.

Palp knew all about Marek...Vader never made the attempt because Palp had him broken.

(there is an interesting Vs. thread btw, Marek and vader vs. sidious (all TFU) In fact, in ROTS novelization, it states that vader DID NOT WANT to kill sidious, because he was all he had left. So him hating sidious for 20 years is not as cut and dried as we often assume.
How limited was vader by the armor? 80% of sidious was the number given by lucas. How powerful would he have become without Obi Wan's intervention?

200 percent.

Finally: let's say vader kills obi-wan, instead of being injured, how is the story changed? we assume he gets Padme back to medical droids. She either has the babies with them, and then dies, or has them and lives. How does this affect the history of the galaxy (and which is it? would she live or die? )

She'd likely die. No will to live, recall

All those questions must be looked at to answer how much the death and loss of padme CHANGED vader. Vader thought he was doing the right thing in ROTS. He was ending the war, (he thought) because the jedi were traitors(he thought) besides the death of the Jedi order, if a healthy vader had killed sids with padme supporting him, How would the rule of the galaxy have been different than the galactic empire?

He was pretty deluded there, really...and a galaxy ruled by Vader would be god awful.

Okay, that's enough hypotheticals for now, but i think they are legitimate questions in figuring out exactly who vader was. (in order to answer the question, was there really any good left inside of him?)

also: for another day: how significant is it that NJO jedi go the darkside and come back all the time, while vader was the FIRST jedi in history (other than revan) to return to the light from the dark. Is the way the NJO is ran more conducive to vader? would he ever have fallen to the darkness if he had served in that order instead?

Don't forget Ulic Qel-Droma...

I wouldn't say they come back ALL the time, either...

Erm... regarding the whole Vader vs. Palpatine notion, the idea that because Vader simply hurled the Emperor to his death (and died during the process, mind you) is a sign of superiority is rather obscene. Granted, it was a major **** up on Palpatine's part; the size, roughly, of a Super Star Destroyer, but that's it.

According to the Ultimate Visual Guide, Vader abandoned all pretenses of overthrowing his Master with Skywalker by RotJ, hence his line "I must obey my master." He "faces the reality that he will remain forever a pawn in Palpatine's schemes", believing totally that the Emperor is "truly omniscient."

But three things happen in RotJ that cement Palpatine's fallibility. First, he doesn't sense Skywalker's presence on the Forest Moon, second, he doesn't forsee Skywalker's refusal to join him, and third, he fails to forsee his own death.

It was a sign of the Force being balanced.

Originally posted by Gideon
Erm... regarding the whole Vader vs. Palpatine notion, the idea that because Vader simply hurled the Emperor to his death (and died during the process, mind you) is a sign of superiority is rather obscene. Granted, it was a major **** up on Palpatine's part; the size, roughly, of a Super Star Destroyer, but that's it.

agreed. how about the quote from ROTS novel that states vader "didn't even want to" overthrow palpatine because he is all he had? Did Vader still hang on to any vestige of the friendship he had with palpatine that was evident in ROTS and before? Were they partially friends even after Sids was revealed as a Sith?(i mean not sidious towards anakin, that was obviously an act, but Anakin's fealings towards Sids?) and did that last? or was it completely dead by ROTJ?

Originally posted by truejedi
agreed. how about the quote from ROTS novel that states vader "didn't even want to" overthrow palpatine because he is all he had? Did Vader still hang on to any vestige of the friendship he had with palpatine that was evident in ROTS and before? Were they partially friends even after Sids was revealed as a Sith?(i mean not sidious towards anakin, that was obviously an act, but Anakin's fealings towards Sids?) and did that last? or was it completely dead by ROTJ?
I think the beginning of TUF, all of RoDV, and a passage from Death Star make it clear that Vader wants to get rid of Sidious when he's ready to.

Originally posted by Gideon
Could I offer you a cup of VADER, PLEASE?! 😐
Hell yes!

regarding the poster who was asking about quotes from gideon was this it?

Vader could sense the hostility of some of the men behind Tarkin, but that was of no importance. Hostile words or actions he could and would deal with, but thoughts of the weak-minded were no threat.
Tarkin, oily and smooth as always, was a man who knew where his best interests lay, and as long as his own plans matched those of the Emperor, he was a useful tool. Which was good, because Vader would not hesitate to use that tool.
The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.
As would Vader be, someday.
But that was in the future. Now he had more mundane duties. There were problems with the construction of this station. When Vader left, those problems would be corrected. He would return as necessary to correct more troubles as they appeared, and he would also return at times when things were proceeding smoothly, just to remind Tarkin and his senior officers that the Emperor's eye was always watching them.
Always.
Or perhaps these?

Vader knew all about midi-Chlorians, of course—he personally had the highest count per cell ever recorded, more than twenty thousand. More than Yoda, and, he knew, more than his erstwhile Master, Kenobi. Which meant that, potentially, he could have a stronger connection to the Force than anyone. Since most, if not all, of the Jedi were no more, that was all the sweeter, though Vader was convinced that Obi-Wan had remained hidden all these years, as had Yoda, assuming the latter had not finally shuffled off into death. Yoda had been very old, after all, and the defeat and deaths of the Jedi could not have helped him age any easier. He could be dead. But it was unwise to make such assumptions about such a powerful Jedi Master

Hope these helped btw requeting permission to join the project gideon.

~~~~Vader's Assessment~~~~

Raw Power: This is fairly clear cut. Vader had the highest force potential in history, and would have possessed twice as much power as Palpatine shows at his peak. As it is, because of the injuries and his suit, it's canon that he possesses 80% of Palpatine's power. This places him at the high end of Sith Lords, although still below Caedus and presumably several others.

Force Mastery: This area is much more interesting. As far as learning goes, I don't know that there is much to say about him. We know he had a home at Bast Castle on the Dark Side steeped Vjun, that had at least one holocron Vader studied. He also had the most learned Force user ever as his master, and it's safe to assume that Palpatine taught Vader a great deal. It is clear from Palpatine's character, though, that he never taught him anything close to as much as the Emperor himself knew, nor anything that could aid Vader in seriously challenging Palpatine's rule.

Vader doesn't seem to have more exotic or "fun" Dark Side abilities like Force Drain or Force Lightning, which is sad for reasons I'll give in my conclusion. His mental force powers, though, are first and foremost among all Star Wars characters, in my opinion. Others may display a higher telekinetic feat (Nihilus, Sidious, Yoda, Kyp, Luke, et cetera), but no one shows such prowess and control of it time and again. Upon first learning of Padme's death, he unleashes a Force Scream that crushes/shatters everything in the medical bay. He becomes angry enough at Inquisitor Malorum that when Force Choking the Inquisitor, walls of the surrounding rooms were caving in. Mara once mused to Luke that Vader used the Force to throw an admiral through the wall of a ship because he showed a lack of respect for the Force. More impressive telekinetic feats would include effortlessly moving numerous metal objects – some of which were bolted down – without motioning his hand or arms to throw them at Luke, and Force Choking an admiral whom he had virtually zero connection to from miles away. Even better than that is the feat in the new Coruscant Nights book, in which he actually overloads Aurra Sing's lightsaber with pure willpower, rendering it useless.

His telepathy was sharp enough to read Luke's mind, as well as read the thoughts of all of his colleagues, the admirals. Moreover, he also proved capable of ripping thoughts from the minds of military-discipline trained soldiers (rebel pilots, at least). More impressive is his ability to sense his son's presence while aboard his ship, the Executor, even before Palpatine had. This is particularly enlightening when we consider that Palpatine already had knowledge that Luke would turn himself over to Vader, so presumably would have been attempting to monitor Luke's positioning. Another testament to his amazing mental force powers is his tremendous precognition, which helped him become one of the greatest pilots in the galaxy.

Lightsaber Ability: What can we say here. When Anakin first becomes Darth Vader, his lightsaber ability is great enough to rival anyone in the Jedi Order. He effortlessly destroys Darth Tyrannus prior to surrendering to the Dark Side (in doing so becoming even more powerful). His skill becomes great enough that he masters both variations of Form V, has a working knowledge of Form III and IV, and combines them all to form a customized version of Djem So. He was capable of easily defeating lightsaber combat droids – programmed in a dozen fighting styles and with the swordskill of a hundred masters, all with higher strength and speed of a normal human – even in two-on-one matches. His list of the Jedi he's defeated/killed/embarrassed is impressive, including Shadday Potkin, Koffi Arana, Ma'kis'shaalas, Roan Shryne, Empatojayos Brand, the Dark Woman (An'ya Kuro), Aurra Sing, Cin Drallig, Darth Maul, and Luke Skywalker to name a few. Which brings me to my summary:

Conclusion: The fact that Vader cannot versatile force attacks such as Force Lightning badly hurts him combat-wise. Force Choke and Force Grip are often easily negated by one's Force Shielding, and it is very rare to see one's defenses get shredded by purely TK methods. His telepathy isn't a worthy combat asset, either. Regarding his abilities with a lightsaber, which are profound – are several very low points:

He was almost killed at the Conclave on Kessel, in which was was ambushed by nine Jedi and needed help from the 501st Stormtrooper division to destroy them. This did not prevent him from being seriously injured in the encounter. While on the planet of Shumari, he is viciously attacked and severely wounded by a Tusken Raider, Vader's failed apprentice on the verge of death having to save his life...He is able to overcome Boba Fett, although with great difficulty – Boba having several opportunities to win during the battle. On Mimban, Vader dueled a literal neophyte Luke with zero lightsaber training and got his arm hacked off. (Granted, Obi-Wan's spirit was guiding.) Vader was again almost killed by the bounty hunter Awarru Tark, barely surviving the encounter and coming away with yet more scars to his already deformed face. When Darth Maul is resurrected by the Prophets of the Dark Side, Vader seems to be evenly matched. However, once Maul is forced to revert to Jar'Kai (a style with which is not his preference), Vader becomes quickly overwhelmed and is once again about to be killed if not for plunging his own saber through his body to impale Maul – severely damaging his life support systems in the process. Added to this is the fact that during their duel on Bespin, Luke (again, with virtually zero lightsaber combat training) is able to get the better of Vader twice – once kicking him off of the carbonite platform and once striking him on the shoulder with his saber. Besides that, we all remember him being overpowered by Luke, tapped into the Dark Side, on the Death Star. Not to mention his loss to Galen Marek, in which the novelization portrays Galen as decidedly beating Vader handily.

Once everything is taken into consideration with regards to Darth Vader, I believe the final conclusion is that while he had a tremendous amount of power (Sidious believed that it wasn't the suit which held his potential back, but his own psychological weaknesses), he is unable to utilize it to the best of his abilities, being badly encumbered by such a weighty suit and having badly glaring weaknesses as the life support system. He has the raw power to stand toe-to-toe with some of the most powerful characters in the mythos, but due to the limitations of the suit, I do not think he has the lightsaber ability to contend with many of them.

I will finish my thought regarding DE Sidious' power tomorrow evening - I think you all will be entertained.

EDIT: I haven't proof read this yet. It's almost 1 AM here and I got up at 6 this morning, and my brain is just slightly not working correctly, so I hope everything is clear and not backwards *is dyslexic*

You have very good points enyalus, but some of it contain flaws so let me address them.

Conclusion: The fact that Vader cannot versatile force attacks such as Force Lightning badly hurts him combat-wise. Force Choke and Force Grip are often easily negated by one's Force Shielding, and it is very rare to see one's defenses get shredded by purely TK methods. His telepathy isn't a worthy combat asset, either. Regarding his abilities with a lightsaber, which are profound – are several very low points:

Bane, at the time of POD was able to smash through another force users force shield with TK attacks, and it was pretty easily.

Regarding the marek duel, vader himself nearly throttled him to death several times until marek was able to find several objects and hurl them at an unsuspecting vader(source, comic)

As for the kessel incident, he was still inexperienced in the dark side of the force and received little training(even by RODV he was stated to not have much DS training yet) considering that it happened merely 3 weeks after he got into his suit and the fact that he was facing seven jedi knights and masters yet he still managed to pwn a few of them before getting backstabbed and get his ass pounded.

Considering vaders massive powers, i doubt it would be that hard for him to breach someone elses force shield seeing that a POD bane could do it relatively easy.

But yea, i'm really dissapointed that vader does not have those nifty powers like drain, sith magic or alchemy. Him not having lightning is understandable but those nifty stuff? bah.

I recall the ancient sith reserved a throne for darth vader on korriban(source: empires end) and for them to do such a thing would mean that vader had considerable power.

Seriously, vader is one of, if not the most underrated sith lord ever besides count dooku.

Very nice assessment, Enyalus. I have nothing to add.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
regarding the poster who was asking about quotes from gideon was this it?

What I was looking for(and still can't find) was the quote that Sidious said (in RODV?) that Vader's problem was more mental rather then physical. Yet Lumiya tells Jacen Solo the opposite in LOTF.

Originally posted by truejedi
OMG... just... OMG.... words do not describe... 😛 i'm not even going to reply to that idiocy. Lightsnake's answer will suffice, thanks LS.

It's funny how you talk about idiocy and then immediately go on to say this:

Originally posted by truejedi
I would make the argument that ROTJ vader is maybe stronger than ROTJ sidious, or at least more aware, because he beat sidious without a hand, and without a lightsaber....

Seriously, that was some hilariously bad timing on your part.

i guess i should have said the argument could be made, not that i make the argument. It was much like most of my vader post: designed to spark discussion, not to rank him.
Sidious was obviously superior to vader or vader would have been ruling the galaxy, not sidious. I agree with the guy who posted after me, and did point out that it was MAJOR F-up by sidious.

I put Vader under a host of others. Vader is not top tier. let me point that out as my own opinion. Not top tier, and he never was.
Thanks Taven for reminding me that i needed to go back and make that clear.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You have very good points enyalus, but some of it contain flaws so let me address them.

[b]Conclusion: The fact that Vader cannot versatile force attacks such as Force Lightning badly hurts him combat-wise. Force Choke and Force Grip are often easily negated by one's Force Shielding, and it is very rare to see one's defenses get shredded by purely TK methods. His telepathy isn't a worthy combat asset, either. Regarding his abilities with a lightsaber, which are profound – are several very low points:

Bane, at the time of POD was able to smash through another force users force shield with TK attacks, and it was pretty easily.[/b]

Waaaaait. For real. You can't compare Bane, who could be the legendary Sith'ari, fighting a low level Sith apprentice Fohargh and take the result as the standard. I'm quite sure top tier opponents, such as we'd pit Vader against, would be able to defend against such an assault. That Fohargh could not just proves that he was pathetic when compared to the Dark Side strength shown by Bane.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Regarding the marek duel, vader himself nearly throttled him to death several times until marek was able to find several objects and hurl them at an unsuspecting vader(source, comic)

Yes, but I said 'in the novelization.' I loved the comic portrayal though.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger

Considering vaders massive powers, i doubt it would be that hard for him to breach someone elses force shield seeing that a POD bane could do it relatively easy.

See above.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I recall the ancient sith reserved a throne for darth vader on korriban(source: empires end) and for them to do such a thing would mean that vader had considerable power.

True. He's got considerable power. But the suit (or his own feelings) limit his ability, and thus I don't believe him to be one of the top tier in regard to combat abilities.

Originally posted by truejedi
I put Vader under a host of others. Vader is not top tier. let me point that out as my own opinion. Not top tier, and he never was.

My opinion is similar. I think he had the power to be, even in the suit. But he just never brings it, you know?

He has the raw power to stand toe-to-toe with some of the most powerful characters in the mythos, but due to the limitations of the suit, I do not think he has the lightsaber ability to contend with many of them.

That was the closing line of my conclusion regarding Vader. It seems a little ambiguous, so let me clarify:

In combat, Vader is not top tier when we consider other Sith Lords. A short list of Sith who could beat him the majority of the time include:

Darth Caedus
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Bane
Lord Kas'im
Darth Nihilus
Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Exar Kun

Any of you looking for reasoning, Maul could have killed him in their duel previously, but was so arrogant he began to taunt him and drop his guard. Kas'im is better at Jar'Kai than Maul is, and his force shields held against a Force Push that shattered the entire foundation of an old temple. Traya can wield four lightsabers at once, which Vader's speed would be unable to counter. And even assuming that Revan's saber skills are not on par (which I believe them to be), his tremendous Force Lightning and Force Storm attacks would annihilate Vader.

Given that, in combat, he's this far down on the list, in my opinion he is not a top tier combatant.

On the upside, he could probably take out the rest of the Brotherhood of Darkness, most if not all of Krayt's Order, and Darth Tyrannus...

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
What I was looking for(and still can't find) was the quote that Sidious said (in RODV?) that Vader's problem was more mental rather then physical. Yet Lumiya tells Jacen Solo the opposite in LOTF.

I believe this is the quote.

"Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn't know the power of the dark side. Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments."

Originally posted by Enyalus
Darth Caedus
Darth Sidious
Darth Maul
Darth Bane
Lord Kas'im
Darth Nihilus
Darth Traya
Darth Revan
Exar Kun
I'm assuming that you mean Maul would only have a chance in a duel. According to Lightsnake and/or Gideon, the acolytes responsible for Maul's resurrection note that Vader could've crushed them all with the Force then and there - it was a contest of honor and eligibility for the mantle of Dark Lord more than anything.

Force Crushing tanks is my only contribution for Vader...

Oh, and he's like, the ultimate pimp.pimp

Originally posted by Faunus
I'm assuming that you mean Maul would only have a chance in a duel. According to Lightsnake and/or Gideon, the acolytes responsible for Maul's resurrection note that Vader could've crushed them all with the Force then and there - it was a contest of honor and eligibility for the mantle of Dark Lord more than anything.

I don't recall that speech bubble, offhand. However, superior duelists have been known to defeat or kill superior Force users quite often. So, I still believe Maul would take the majority. It's also hard to believe that Vader would risk resort to nearly killing himself to best Maul if he could have done so through the Force once he realized he was outclassed, honor or not taken into consideration.

PLOT INDUCED STUPIDITY.

Maul somehow being resurrected and re-trained to perfection is believable, but Vader purposely holding back his power to prove his worth isn't?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't recall that speech bubble, offhand. However, superior duelists have been known to defeat or kill superior Force users quite often. So, I still believe Maul would take the majority. It's also hard to believe that Vader would risk resort to nearly killing himself to best Maul if he could have done so through the Force once he realized he was outclassed, honor or not taken into consideration.

The guys who created maul were actually commenting about how even they seemed so it wasn't really that maul was playing with vader, and towards the end when maul and vader decided to finish it, vader cut maul's saber in half (which you could take to mean that vader is the better duelist since he cut maul's weapon when maul was using a form he was trained for all his life) vader probably expecting to have the easy kill once maul's saber was rendered useless. But vader stopped for a second surprise at maul's working saberS, then maul unleashed a barrage of hits (none hit) that probably catched vader off guard maul was going for the finishing blow vader reached for his saber in the force and turned it on (on himself as we know 😉 ) so vader didn't have much time to think and use the force during the last part of the fight.

Regarding Sidious yes i do think sidious was stronger so we are in agreement there. 😄

Originally posted by Faunus
[b]PLOT INDUCED STUPIDITY.

Maul somehow being resurrected and re-trained to perfection is believable, but Vader purposely holding back his power to prove his worth isn't? [/B]

Yeah and taking CW seriously when GG is shown doing acrobatic and gymnastic moves when in the fight with Kenobi he fights like a dumbass with Down Syndrome.

Kenobi would have killed if GG had let his droids fire.