Credit to OneDumbGo for the entire post:
Doom has become god-like in less than a month in the storyline, Fantastic Four: The World's Greatest Comic Magazine. The links in the Dr. Doom respect thread are broken for this particular adventure of his. Back in 2001, Marvel decided to pay homage to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and create a story where Doom and the FF and really, all of Marvel Earth got involved. Over two dozen writers and artists collaborated to produce the 12-issue miniseries. It's canon, and according to the authors and editors in the letter columns, takes place right before Fantastic Four #100:
Doom knew about Cap's first battle with the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube and retrieves it via Time Platform:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest4.jpg
He then goes on to steal the Sacred Helix of Randac which powers the Terrigen Crystals from Attilan:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest5.jpg
Picking up information from Human Torch, he confronts the Watcher and steals his Ultimate Machine, which is a repository of the Watchers' entire accumulated knowledge:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest6.jpg
He then travels to the Negative Zone to steal Annihilus' Cosmic Control Rod:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest9.jpg
He combines the Cosmic Control Rod, the Cosmic Cube and his Power Cosmic Siphon Harness and confronts Galactus and takes his power by force:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...sGreatest10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube06.jpg
Here, Reed explains that Doom used the Sacred Helix of Randac to alter himself to withstand the overwhelming effects of using the Ultimate Machine. The Leader's mind had been completely overwhelmed when he tried to access it. Using the knowledge gained from it, he was able to figure out that the Cosmic Control Rod + Cosmic Cube + Power Cosmic Siphon Harness would be enough to drain Galactus of his power. And Doom finally starts the fighting:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...sGreatest11.jpg
The American military, SHIELD, Avengers, X-Men, Thor, Asgard and Odin, Namor and Atlantis:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube08.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube09.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube11.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube12.jpg
Where's Reed during all this? Using Doom's own invention, an ionic inanimate matter converter, powered by the Silver Surfer, Reed summons classic Marvel monsters to fight Doom. Black Bolt and the Inhumans join the fight as well:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...sGreatest12.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube14.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube15.jpg
That blasted Reed Richards takes advantage of Doom's distraction with his newfound hunger and his arrogance to retrieve the Cosmic Cube and undo his transformation:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube16.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube17.jpg
Reed goes on to erase the events from the entire world's memory with the Cosmic Cube. Only Galactus, Uatu and Reed remember what happened. Not bad for a few week's work. The above scans don't chronicle even a third of the things Doom did during the entire mini-series, but they ought to convey the spirit of the adventure. The epic dialogue from the last five scans comes from Stan Lee himself who penned the 12th issue.
Just something to think about, IMO.
dr doom intelligence level is extraordinary genius(Genius in multiple fields) thanos intellignece level is superhuman making him a genius in every other intellectual fields and giving him intellectual prowess beyond the huaman capabilities giving him logic,reason,planning,creativity and everyother intellectual abilities on a superhuman.
Originally posted by quanchi112Yes, we can. Since the "future" version was the present-day version of 616 Dr. Doom as seen in Fantastic Four #288. Originally, the Dr. Doom was some future Doom from some unspecified future timeline. But Secret Wars II Beyonder retconned that by placing the then-present and 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. Mr. Master and I discussed this here. You can make your own opinion:
We still cant give him the feat.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=492581&pagenumber=3
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Interesting. Ill look into this further. Who do you give the nod in this matchup anwyays?
Yes, we can. Since the "future" version was the present-day version of 616 Dr. Doom as seen in Fantastic Four #288. Originally, the Dr. Doom was some future Doom from some unspecified future timeline. But Secret Wars II Beyonder retconned that by placing the then-present and 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. Mr. Master and I discussed this here. You can make your own opinion:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=492581&pagenumber=3
Originally posted by quanchi112Thanos 7/10. Grudgingly.
Interesting. Ill look into this further. Who do you give the nod in this matchup anwyays?
I understand Thanos' superiority in nearly all fields of comparison. But he still doesn't utilize magic or time travel as well as Dr. Doom. And Dr. Doom has also one-upped Thanos in several respects. Not only in terms of greater feats, but in Infinity War for instance, he came closest to defeating Magus with the CCU's, whereas Thanos and company were basically getting screwed by Magus' machinations. Thanos' and Warlock's master plan eventually defeated Magus with the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. But Magus with the Cosmic Containment Units was a different story, and one that Dr. Doom came out the better for. I also fully acknowledge that Magus focused on Thanos, but I don't think that detracts a great deal from Dr. Doom's pimp showing.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Don't forget Doom had help from Kang.
Thanos 7/10. Grudgingly.I understand Thanos' superiority in nearly all fields of comparison. But he still doesn't utilize magic or time travel as well as Dr. Doom. And Dr. Doom has also one-upped Thanos in several respects. Not only in terms of greater feats, but in Infinity War for instance, he came closest to defeating Magus with the CCU's, whereas Thanos and company were basically getting screwed by Magus' machinations. Thanos' and Warlock's master plan eventually defeated Magus with the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. But Magus with the Cosmic Containment Units was a different story, and one that Dr. Doom came out the better for. I also fully acknowledge that Magus focused on Thanos, but I don't think that detracts a great deal from Dr. Doom's pimp showing.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0He doesnt have to. Thanos and Doom were both after the same thing in marvel's the end. Doom's plan was flawed and Thanos ha dto spare Doom his fate. He is the better man,but you agree. Doom failed in infinity war. He didnt defeat the Magus. he was close but no cigar. In the secret wars if you want to count it,it proved he couldnt hold that much power in himself.
Thanos 7/10. Grudgingly.I understand Thanos' superiority in nearly all fields of comparison. But he still doesn't utilize magic or time travel as well as Dr. Doom. And Dr. Doom has also one-upped Thanos in several respects. Not only in terms of greater feats, but in Infinity War for instance, he came closest to defeating Magus with the CCU's, whereas Thanos and company were basically getting screwed by Magus' machinations. Thanos' and Warlock's master plan eventually defeated Magus with the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. But Magus with the Cosmic Containment Units was a different story, and one that Dr. Doom came out the better for. I also fully acknowledge that Magus focused on Thanos, but I don't think that detracts a great deal from Dr. Doom's pimp showing.
Thanos and Warlock>Doom and Kang any day of the week.
If Thanos and Doom both had a year to bolster their personal forces and go to war with one another. Doom would be slaughtered.
Originally posted by Lord SBah, Dr. Doom probably woulda done better with a Doombot at his side. durfist
Don't forget Doom had help from Kang.
Originally posted by quanchi112Thanos had prep there, whereas Dr. Doom did not. Dr. Doom's plan was not flawed because Akhenaten specifically prepped for Dr. Doom in advance. He just beat him to the punch. Akhenaten did not prep for Thanos. Dr. Doom would hold the Beyonder's power a second time.
He doesnt have to. Thanos and Doom were both after the same thing in marvel's the end. Doom's plan was flawed and Thanos ha dto spare Doom his fate. He is the better man,but you agree. Doom failed in infinity war. He didnt defeat the Magus. he was close but no cigar. In the secret wars if you want to count it,it proved he couldnt hold that much power in himself.Thanos and Warlock>Doom and Kang any day of the week.
If Thanos and Doom both had a year to bolster their personal forces and go to war with one another. Doom would be slaughtered.
If Dr. Doom decided to fight against Thanos on that sort of playing field, of course he would get slaughtered. He wouldn't. He's not that foolish. That's analogous to Iron Man and Namor prepping against each other and Iron Man choosing to war with Namor underwater.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0No,it really isnt. But Thanos does have the advantage with tech.
Bah, Dr. Doom probably woulda done better with a Doombot at his side. durfist
Thanos had prep there, whereas Dr. Doom did not. Dr. Doom's plan was not flawed because Akhenaten specifically prepped for Dr. Doom in advance. He just beat him to the punch. Akhenaten did not prep for Thanos. Dr. Doom would hold the Beyonder's power a second time.If Dr. Doom decided to fight against Thanos on that sort of playing field, of course he would get slaughtered. He wouldn't. He's not that foolish. That's analogous to Iron Man and Namor prepping against each other and Iron Man choosing to war with Namor underwater.
Both Doom and Thanos both wanted the same prize here. Thanos succeeded while Doom failed. Doom had a poor plan.Thanos then saved Doom from this fate.
Thanos is just better than Doom. Thats all there is to it.
Originally posted by MindsetYes,Thanos is better on a bigger scale. Doom is more of a take over the earth kinda guy while Thanos is more a take over the universe kind of guy even though Doom has tried that as well.
Thanos has more knowledge regarding cosmic things than Doom, that's why he had a better plan.It pretty much says that.
Thanos>Doom.
Originally posted by quanchi112If you think Dr. Doom would engage Thanos in a battle that plays to his strengths, then you underestimate Doom's intelligence. He has no subconscious urge to defeat himself.
Yes,Thanos is better on a bigger scale. Doom is more of a take over the earth kinda guy while Thanos is more a take over the universe kind of guy even though Doom has tried that as well.Thanos>Doom.
Dr. Doom has humbled Galactus, Thanos has not. Dr. Doom overpowered the Beyonder, a greater foe than any Thanos has ever personally overpowered. Dr. Doom knows magic better than Thanos. Dr. Doom utilizes his time machine better than Thanos. Dr. Doom accomplishes more of his greatest feats on the fly, whereas Thanos always has prepped and been guided by imbued knowledge, i.e. Infinity Well.
When assessing prep in similar storylines where the ultimate nemesis is unaware of their actions: 1) Magus w/ CCU's focusing on Thanos, Dr. Doom + Kang assaulting them; and 2) Akhenaten focusing on Dr. Doom, Thanos + Defenders + Captain Marvel vicariously assaulting Akhenaten; I think Dr. Doom comes out more impressive. In neither scenario was Dr. Doom privy to advance information on either situation. Indeed, in the former, Dr. Doom knew about Magus' CCU's before even Thanos did. Dr. Doom used Kang to assault Magus and come within a heartbeat of gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos sacrificed the Defenders and Captain Marvel to sidestep Akhenaten altogether and go after THOTU.
Your opinion is yours, I have mine. Doom is underrated.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Thanos has saved Galactus' ass from the Hunger. Doom has not. Doom temporarily overpowered the Beyonder and proved he wasnt up to the task. Thanos doesnt give up power because he cant control it. He also overcame his subconscious desire in marvel's the end,so you cant rely on that either as a copout.
If you think Dr. Doom would engage Thanos in a battle that plays to his strengths, then you underestimate Doom's intelligence. He has no subconscious urge to defeat himself.Dr. Doom has humbled Galactus, Thanos has not. Dr. Doom overpowered the Beyonder, a greater foe than any Thanos has ever personally overpowered. Dr. Doom knows magic better than Thanos. Dr. Doom utilizes his time machine better than Thanos. Dr. Doom accomplishes more of his greatest feats on the fly, whereas Thanos always has prepped and been guided by imbued knowledge, i.e. Infinity Well.
When assessing prep in similar storylines where the ultimate nemesis is unaware of their actions: 1) Magus w/ CCU's focusing on Thanos, Dr. Doom + Kang assaulting them; and 2) Akhenaten focusing on Dr. Doom, Thanos + Defenders + Captain Marvel vicariously assaulting Akhenaten; I think Dr. Doom comes out more impressive. In neither scenario was Dr. Doom privy to advance information on either situation. Indeed, in the former, Dr. Doom knew about Magus' CCU's before even Thanos did. Dr. Doom used Kang to assault Magus and come within a heartbeat of gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos sacrificed the Defenders and Captain Marvel to sidestep Akhenaten altogether and go after THOTU.
Your opinion is yours, I have mine. Doom is underrated.
Thanos has constructed a time machine of his own. Doom needs magic but that wont get him the victory over Thanos who is more intelligent,more powerful,and he himself also has superior tech.
In both stories the infinity war and marvel's the end the both had one thing in common. Thanos succeeding while Doom failed both times.
Doom may be underrated but Thanos is still his superior and you know it.
Originally posted by quanchi112Doom temporarily overpowered the Beyonder
Technically yes, but only cause Beyonder manipulated 616 Doom's success.
That shouldn't count imo. 🙂
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Yes, we can. Since the "future" version was the present-day version of 616 Dr. Doom as seen in Fantastic Four #288. Originally, the Dr. Doom was some future Doom from some unspecified future timeline. But Secret Wars II Beyonder retconned that by placing the then-present and 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. Mr. Master and I discussed this here. You can make your own opinion:
But after giving it some thought ODG,
should we still give it to 616 Doom?
I mean, Beyonder completely manipulated his involvement,
Beyonder literally replaced the original future Doom, with 616 Doom,
and then allowed Secret Wars to play out, that's a cheese win as Street Fighter fanboys say.
The real being that stole much of B's power never really existed, this is why the loop occurred,
imo, it's not fair to give 616 Doom the feat,
because 616 Doom was literally allowed by Beyonder himself to accomplish it.
Originally posted by quanchi112Defeating Galactus is more impressive than getting fried and humbled by Galactus and then aiding him in countering the threat of the Hunger. Dr. Doom not being able to control the Beyonder's power the first time around, does not change the fact that Thanos has never personally beaten a foe of that power level. Beyonder also had the help of all the Marvel heroes in taking the power back. Thanos' inability to hold onto his power comes from within, not without. His subconscious desires were not overcome in Marvel: The End, because as it is made clear, he was being inexorably guided by TOAA the whole time.
Thanos has saved Galactus' ass from the Hunger. Doom has not. Doom temporarily overpowered the Beyonder and proved he wasnt up to the task. Thanos doesnt give up power because he cant control it. He also overcame his subconscious desire in marvel's the end,so you cant rely on that either as a copout.Thanos has constructed a time machine of his own. Doom needs magic but that wont get him the victory over Thanos who is more intelligent,more powerful,and he himself also has superior tech.
In both stories the infinity war and marvel's the end the both had one thing in common. Thanos succeeding while Doom failed both times.
Doom may be underrated but Thanos is still his superior and you know it.
Dr. Doom has more experience with time travel and you know it. Dr. Doom has also built superior tech to Thanos in one very distinct area, the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. He can absorb the Power Cosmic on his own, replicate it, imbue himself and others with it. Thanos could not do that, even with Annihilus' vast resources, as clearly shown in Annihilation. The best he could do after weeks of study was divert Galactus' feeding of power into power cells. Dr. Doom already did that in Secret Wars without any help in several hours time, except he imbued it into himself and punked Galactus personally, rather than have T&A do it for him.
Thanos did not succeed alone in Infinity War. Indeed, he did it with the help of Galactus, Adam Warlock, Mephisto and Earth's heroes. Dr. Doom only had Kang, who he ended up getting rid of anyway. I'm sure that had TOAA picked Dr. Doom to fix the flaw in marvel: The End, Dr. Doom would have succeeded whereas Thanos would have failed. Luck of the draw.
Dr. Doom has also humbled his greatest nemesis, Reed Richards, several times. Thanos has never humbled Adam Warlock.
Dr. Doom is underrated and is clearly superior in enough areas and feats to make this a closer fight than most people would care to think. And you know that as well.
Originally posted by Mr MasterBeyonder tied the loop using 616 Dr. Doom as the ribbon. Beyonder did not guide either of the Dr. Doom's actions in anything. Which is clear because he acknowledges that Doom had bested him. He just sent him back to play out the events that had already occurred.
Not even, imo.Technically yes, but only cause Beyonder manipulated 616 Doom's success.
That shouldn't count imo. 🙂
👆 It's true, Beyonder retconned the original events.
But after giving it some thought ODG,
should we still give it to 616 Doom?I mean, Beyonder completely manipulated his involvement,
Beyonder literally replaced the original future Doom, with 616 Doom,
and then allowed Secret Wars to play out, that's a cheese win as Street Fighter fanboys say.The real being that stole much of B's power never really existed, this is why the loop occurred,
imo, it's not fair to give 616 Doom the feat,
because 616 Doom was literally allowed by Beyonder himself to accomplish it.
When Captain America confronted Korvac and Red Skull, Korvac reset history to place Captain America back into himself before he murdered Red Skull. The original murder of Red Skull had allowed the Cosmic Cube's power to flow into Korvac. Captain America changed that and simply hit Red Skull, which resulted in Red Skull killing Korvac. With this roughly analogous situation, where a character sends another character back in time to play out events, your logic suggests that the character doing the sending is responsible for everything that happens thereafter. With Cap/Korvac/Red Skull then, Korvac ended up causing his own destruction. That interpretation makes sense. Because things changed because of Korvac.
But had events played out exactly the same to close a time loop and Cap had killed Red Skull again, you can hardly suggest that Cap never really killed Red Skull and the feat is not really his because that Korvac used a loopy time travel plot device. We can disagree on this, but as it was literally 616 Dr. Doom in Secret Wars without any actual guidance/manipulation on Beyonder's part, I don't see enough circumstance to discount the feat.
