Dr. Doom vs Thanos

Originally posted by quanchi112

How is it? Both were actively seeking it. You are telling me the TOAA might choose the worse of the two for the job? Really?

Maybe TOAA chose Thanos because he was more easily manipulated and wouldn't figure out what was happening until it was too late. If Doom had been given the power it's possible he wouldn't have done what TOAA wanted him to do with it, or never given it up. Who knows. TOAA works in mysterious ways.

Thanos has always had the benefit of being his creator's personal pet character, and having any poor showings instantly retconned away because Starlin doesn't like them, and leaving only high showings. Very few characters have this advantage (offhand I can't think of any others, almost all characters have some really bad showings).

He is still very impressive of course, certainly in terms of sheer power, but really his plans aren't all that clever - in fact they are generally rather simplistic and rely heavily on Starlin zapping Thanos' opponents with stupid-rays for the duration of the story.

Anyway Thanos probably takes the majority.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You're talking past me. Which is fine. As long as you understand, that your term "manipulate" denotes a certain context, which is untrue concerning the details.

Imo, giving 616 Doom the feat is untrue concerning the details.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder "manipulated" events so that 616 Doom performed them.

Which is why 616 Doom doesn't get the feat.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

He did not manipulate either Doom into acting a certain way.
That is indisputable.
Therefore, Doom still performed that feat.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

As such, first it was future Doom who performed them.
Then it was 616 Doom that performed them.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

There was no influence over 616 Doom's mind or over how the events played out.
It's your opinion, keep it.

Again, we can't escape the fact, Fact! ...
That the only reason 616 Doom had anything to do with a feat that was already performed,
was because Beyonder manipulated his participation.

I'm 100% confident about this, and I'm not letting go of that truth.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It borders on semantics for me and is not a clear enough distinction to discount the feat when in actuality and canon history, 616 Doom was there adn did everything in Secret Wars free from an outside influence that affected the way he would act or others acted.

616 Doom wasn't acting on his own,
he was forcibly repeating the actions of another person.

So yea, 616 Doom was not just influenced,
but his entire involvement was literally choreographed.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

In the end, Beyonder himself admitted that Doom bested him.

Again, 616 Doom had never met, or even ever seen the Beyonder before this issue:

This is nearly two years after Secret Wars 1. 🙂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

beyonder was pretty much forced to clsoe the time loop.
Beyonder did not give 616 Doom certain history or feats out of the goodness of his heart or for entertainment. And the way you justify use of the term "manipulate" may well be arguable, but the way you interpret the term "manipulate" is incorrect. he never manipulated 616 Doom. He only manipulated the timestream so that 616 Doom performed the feats.

I'll leave you with this,
Beyonder himself clearly states that he will manipulate History: (as in 616 Doom's)

Literally, only 616 Doom's history needed to be altered to close the loop.

"If I am a prisoner (of history) then let it be by my own hand the key if turned"

Originally posted by basilisk

Maybe TOAA chose Thanos because he was more easily manipulated and wouldn't figure out what was happening until it was too late. If Doom had been given the power it's possible he wouldn't have done what TOAA wanted him to do with it, or never given it up. Who knows.

Thanos in every department.

Originally posted by basilisk
Maybe TOAA chose Thanos because he was more easily manipulated and wouldn't figure out what was happening until it was too late. If Doom had been given the power it's possible he wouldn't have done what TOAA wanted him to do with it, or never given it up. Who knows. TOAA works in mysterious ways.

Thanos has always had the benefit of being his creator's personal pet character, and having any poor showings instantly retconned away because Starlin doesn't like them, and leaving only high showings. Very few characters have this advantage (offhand I can't think of any others, almost all characters have some really bad showings).

He is still very impressive of course, certainly in terms of sheer power, but really his plans aren't all that clever - in fact they are generally rather simplistic and rely heavily on Starlin zapping Thanos' opponents with stupid-rays for the duration of the story.

Anyway Thanos probably takes the majority.

Regardless of your opinion of Starlin at least you agree Thanos wins this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Literally, only 616 Doom's history needed to be altered to close the loop.

"If I am a prisoner (of history) then let it be [b]by my own hand the key if turned" [/B]

From his own mouth, Beyonder did not manipulate 616 Doom into acting out events as had already been completely decided by prior history. He never makes him act as the future Doom did. He only sends 616 Doom back without memories of that episode in the apartment. 616 Doom than goes out and performs exactly what he performed. Not through manipulation, but simply because he is Doom. Beyonder admitted his defeat on-panel. Doom, when recounting the story, also credits himself with all actions:

"And I duly entered the Secret War, and stole your power, and was banished from your realm - back to the future I'd come from." There is nothing there that suggests Doom is only playing out that which was destined or forced upon him by history. You know how vain Doom is, he would never give himself credit for that which he personally did not accomplish. He would never find satisfaction from some feat performed at the behest of history rather than his own ingeniuity and will. You can keep your opinion, considering that it is 616 Doom in Secret Wars, that both Beyonder and Doom credit Doom with the feat and there is no evidence that suggests Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out exactly as they happened, there is no reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos saved reality in the hunger storyline.

Sending someone else to do your dirty work is brilliant. How many times does Doom send doombots all over creation to accomplish tasks for him. Doom didnt humble Galactus under his own power.

Thanos doesnt lose power because he cant handle it. He must lose it somehow but isnt due to him being simply overwhelmed like Doom was. TOAA selected Thanos because he was the man for the job,not Doom. Doom couldnt handle the power imo.

Reed has a shit ton of appearances but isnt the same prep god that Warlock is. Thats the point.

No, it's passing the buck. And Doom did humble Galactus personally. You've listed plenty of Thanos' feats before. Are you now going to not give Thanos credit because he used the Infinity Gems and a robot to defeat the remaining individual Elders? Because he gained knowledge from the Infinity Well? Because he had vast help in Infinity War? Because he had the Defenders to distract everyone while he reached for THOTU? That's semantics. Thanos performed what he performed. Doom performed what he performed. And as it stands, when it comes to Galactus, Thanos has been straight up pwned, whereas Doom has humbled him twice.

That is your opinion. Doom could handle the Beyonder's power now since he has experience with it. And that power is either equal to or greater than THOTU. Thanos can handle that power because he's had experience with power on that scale. Doom can now boast that same experience. So once again, it's your opinion, a speculative one, that Doom couldn't handle THOTU's power.

Reed's best prep feat is probably better than Warlock's best prep feat. And Doom has completely humbled Reed. Whereas Thanos has never gotten the better of Warlock.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ignorance isnt an excuse. That even makes it worse in my book.

Maguc still sought out the ig because it was more powerful than the ig. Thats the point.

No,thats ridiculous imo. Why would TOAA not pick the best man for the job when the fate of all reality hung in the balance. Makes no sense to me.

1)He freed his mother's soul with Strange and the Surfer if my memory serves me correct. Dont pass it off like he did it alone. Thanos has tricked meph on his own and has used him as his own personal lackey during the ig series.

Thanos is in the big leagues while Doom is a triple a player who sometimes gets called up to the majors.
2)Rule the world,samll goal for a small mind(Thanos would never limit himself to such a small goal).

3)Defeat reed richards. Ok good for him,how many times has he lost against reed richards? Thanos has killed Warlock, has Doom ever killed Reed?

I see all these earth based threats that you are comparing to cosmic threats. Why do this to yourself when Thanos would stomp Doom. Those are the two characters that we are discussing. the most powerful cosmic threats dwarf the most powerful earth based threats anyways.

Its funny ho wyou say Thanos hasnt achieved any of his goals. Sure,Doom ruled the world but lost it just like Thanos lost the ig,etc. he still thinned the herd,got the cosmic cube,acquired the heart,is at death's side currently,etc. His success rate is off the charts. The same storylines with Doom and Thanos in has Thanos looking superior because he is.

Its a stomp.

And Magus did more with the CCU's than he did with the incomplete IG. And Thanos didn't even really do anything to Magus w/ incomplete IG anyway. That's something you wish to look past, but it's the truth.

TOAA does what TOAA does. Being the "best man" for the job means nothing here. Personally, I would have picked Adam Warlock. But then again, Thanos wouldn't have been taught his lesson. Which is again, why TOAA gave him the task, so he could grow through his personal sacrifice.

Doom manipulated only Dr. Strange and Mephisto into freeing his mother's soul. He did it without owing anybody anything. Just at the cost of his mother's love. It is his own feat and own plan from the very beginning. Mephisto has never been more utterly outwitted than in Triumph and Torment. Mephisto was Thanos' lackey because he had the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos only tricked Mephisto with a lame "oops, you didn't mention those details" ploy.

It doesn't matter if you think it's worthless because it is a small goal. Doom's accomplished it several times over because it is his personal goal. What has Thanos accomplished other than outwitting himself and carrying out a love affair with Death?

Semantics. Killing Reed Richards was never Doom's personal goal. Besting him was. And he's done that. Thanos killed Warlock, whereupon Warlock came back and turned him into stone. Killing temporarily is easy, and something that Doom has spared Richards and his family from dozens of times. Personally and utterly humbling? That's something altogether different.

It's not a stomp. That's only your opinion. When Doom plays on a cosmic scale, he's just as, if not more impressive than Thanos.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You're being selective with what you highlight. The very next bit of dialogue explains what is truly occurring. Beyonder does not make Doom into the exact Doom that was brought from the future. The only thing he does, by his own words: "... let Doom's body be recreated... let the mind of Victor Von Doom re-enter his body... and let Doom go now, transported from this moment in time... but let him go without thought or memory of what has here transpired, with no more knowledge of me than is possessed by any others gathered at that time."

From his own mouth, Beyonder did not manipulate 616 Doom into acting out events as had already been completely decided by prior history.

You repeated everything that Beyonder said, and it still translates to imo:

you're (616 Doom) only involvement in this feat is because of me, (Beyonder)
and even though now you (616 Doom) can take credit for it, (cause of me)
someone else (non-existent future Doom) accomplished it,
then you (616 Doom) came,
and like a puppet (616 Doom) was placed in the other's (n-e future Doom) stead,
and exactly everything that he (n-e future Doom) did,
you (616 Doom) were forced to repeat.

I love ya ODB, but this is not the one.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

He never makes him act as the future Doom did. He only sends 616 Doom back without memories of that episode in the apartment. 616 Doom than goes out and performs exactly what he performed. Not through manipulation, but simply because he is Doom.

Come on dogs.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder admitted his defeat on-panel.

616 Doom had never met,
or even seen the Beyonder up until a year and half after Secret Wars 1.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Doom, when recounting the story, also credits himself with all actions:

"And I duly entered the Secret War, and stole your power, and was banished from your realm - back to the future I'd come from." There is nothing there that suggests Doom is only playing out that which was destined or forced upon him by history. You know how vain Doom is, he would never give himself credit for that which he personally did not accomplish. He would never find satisfaction from some feat performed at the behest of history rather than his own ingeniuity and will.

616 Doom is only explaining what Beyonder did to him,
he's literally describing how he was NOT the cat that stole B's power,
and how he THEN became the cat who stole his power,
and only because he's repeating the pre-meditated actions of another character.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You can keep your opinion, considering that it is 616 Doom in Secret Wars, that both Beyonder and Doom credit Doom with the feat and there is no evidence that suggests Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out exactly as they happened, there is no reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can keep your opinion,
considering that it was not 616 Doom in the original Secret Wars,
all the evidence clarifies that Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out
exactly as they happened,
there is clear reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom.

But as there is no confirmation, it's speculation. We can agree to disagree, but without Beyonder stating he forced 616 Doom into acting that way, or at the very least, suggesting such, your use of the term "manipulation" is very loosely tied to what actions were actually performed and by whom they were performed. Beyonder admits his defeat. 616 Doom admits his victory, whilst knowing of what Beyonder did. It is 616 Doom in Secret Wars. It's very simple.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

No. Not when Beyonder says concretely that he only restored Doom's body and wiped his memories of that episode in the apartment and sent him back. He never stated, "I send you now, to do exactly what the other Doom did." No. That is a very simple fact. You can argue that Beyonder forced him to play out events exactly as they happened.

But as there is no confirmation, it's speculation.

Speculation is theorizing whether or not he did things differently,
we are giving the basic information necessary to know the exact same events played out.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

We can agree to disagree

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

but without Beyonder stating he forced 616 Doom into acting that way, or at the very least, suggesting such, your use of the term "manipulation" is very loosely tied to what actions were actually performed and by whom they were performed. Beyonder admits his defeat. 616 Doom admits his victory, whilst knowing of what Beyonder did. It is 616 Doom in Secret Wars. It's very simple.

Both accounts, by the mouth of Beyonder and Doom:

The only reason 616 Doom had anything to do with Secret Wars,
was because the Beyonder manipulated his participation.

616 Doom literally simply re-placed the stead of another's feat.

The other being who truly accomplished the feat, never even existed. 😂

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So?

No, it's passing the buck. And Doom did humble Galactus personally. You've listed plenty of Thanos' feats before. Are you now going to not give Thanos credit because he used the Infinity Gems and a robot to defeat the remaining individual Elders? Because he gained knowledge from the Infinity Well? Because he had vast help in Infinity War? Because he had the Defenders to distract everyone while he reached for THOTU? That's semantics. Thanos performed what he performed. Doom performed what he performed. And as it stands, when it comes to Galactus, Thanos has been straight up pwned, whereas Doom has humbled him twice.

That is your opinion. Doom could handle the Beyonder's power now since he has experience with it. And that power is either equal to or greater than THOTU. Thanos can handle that power because he's had experience with power on that scale. Doom can now boast that same experience. So once again, it's your opinion, a speculative one, that Doom couldn't handle THOTU's power.

Reed's best prep feat is probably better than Warlock's best prep feat. And Doom has completely humbled Reed. Whereas Thanos has never gotten the better of Warlock.

I dont know if I believe Doom could handle it and as I see with you and master's debate it might not even be 616 Doom. But,I am a generous man take the feat. Doom needs all the help he can get.

Doom wasnt chosen for the power because Thanos was the better man. It has become the theme of this debate. Even you agree Thanos beats him,but you won give Thanos the stomp even though you know it to be true.

....................................................................................

Ok, this cements my point as fact:

After Beyonder sent 616 Doom to the past, to repeat the actions of the orginal culprit,
Reed clarifies what 616 Doom will be doing there:

She-Hulk: ... "He's (616 Doom) gone into the Past hasn't he"

Reed: ... "Yes, but there he will begin a CYCLE
that will end with the Beyonder banishing him 'across time & space,'
at the conclusion of the First Secret Wars."

....................................................................................

Reed knows exactly what 616 Doom will do, and how it will end for him,
cause it already happened, as I said and proved without this blatant proof,
616 Doom is only replacing the actions of another.

Surely you will agree now true debater. swank

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's worse for what? There are things that Thanos does not know. Are you going to chop him at the knees because something happens to escape his notice?

And Magus did more with the CCU's than he did with the incomplete IG. And Thanos didn't even really do anything to Magus w/ incomplete IG anyway. That's something you wish to look past, but it's the truth.

TOAA does what TOAA does. Being the "best man" for the job means nothing here. Personally, I would have picked Adam Warlock. But then again, Thanos wouldn't have been taught his lesson. Which is again, why TOAA gave him the task, so he could grow through his personal sacrifice.

Doom manipulated only Dr. Strange and Mephisto into freeing his mother's soul. He did it without owing anybody anything. Just at the cost of his mother's love. It is his own feat and own plan from the very beginning. Mephisto has never been more utterly outwitted than in Triumph and Torment. Mephisto was Thanos' lackey because he had the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos only tricked Mephisto with a lame "oops, you didn't mention those details" ploy.

It doesn't matter if you think it's worthless because it is a small goal. Doom's accomplished it several times over because it is his personal goal. What has Thanos accomplished other than outwitting himself and carrying out a love affair with Death?

Semantics. Killing Reed Richards was never Doom's personal goal. Besting him was. And he's done that. Thanos killed Warlock, whereupon Warlock came back and turned him into stone. Killing temporarily is easy, and something that Doom has spared Richards and his family from dozens of times. Personally and utterly humbling? That's something altogether different.

It's not a stomp. That's only your opinion. When Doom plays on a cosmic scale, he's just as, if not more impressive than Thanos.

Yes,Magus had the ccu's for most of the arc. If Magus had gotten the 6 gems it would more than likely have been lights out(I know he cant win,but you understand what I mean). Magus was far more powerful and dangerous with the gems than with the ccu's. Doom failed. Thats it. You either win or you lose,and he lost.

Thanos and Warlock are both prep gods and imo better than Doom. I just couldnt see the TOAA going to Doom for even his second choice.

Doom needed their help. Meph made a deal with Thanos for a ccu which Thanos obtained on his own years ago and played Meph for the fool. That happens to those who come into contact with Thanos quite a bit.

Are you saying that Doom doesnt want to beat reed for all time? Because Reed seems to be doing fine to me. Again,these two characters play on a different scale. Thanos is the bigtime while Doom isnt.

When Thanos was killed I beleive he was also opposed by Order,Chaos and a whole slew of others. Doom gets beat by the ff4. Huge difference.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Both accounts, by the mouth of Beyonder and Doom:

The only reason 616 Doom had anything to do with Secret Wars,
was because the Beyonder manipulated his participation.

616 Doom literally simply re-placed the stead of another's feat.

The other being who truly accomplished the feat, never even existed. 😂

This is absolute pure and unequivocal evidence that the Dr. Doom that has always appeared in Secret Wars was our 616 Dr. Doom. There was NEVER a "future Doom that never existed." As Reed himself states, Beyonder isn't manipulating events to send back a 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars to replace some "non-existent future Doom," he is only doing exactly what his past self wanted to do, summoning a Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. That itself was the time-loop! Dr. Doom is, and always was, 616 Dr. Doom, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!"

As Reed himself unequivocally states, Secret Wars Doom was ALWAYS 616 Doom from Fantastic Four #288. If it was a different Doom at first, then there would have been no space-time paradox to close. If it was a different Doom he was replacing, let's say Doom from Earth-11435, then Beyonder and 616 reality would not be in danger. As it was 616 Doom himself and he had to be there, then it was ALWAYS 616 Doom. That is why there is danger to the space-time continuum in the first place!

AHA! As I originally thought when I read that issue several months ago. I knew there was something off when we discussed this in that other thread! I knew it! This completely closes the issue for me. Discussing this further has only confirmed my suspicions from the beginning. And truly, there is no turning back from this point on. So, keep your opinion, we will agree to disagree. Although, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why you would think otherwise.

Secret Wars Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it isnt. Thanos saved all of reality including Galactus due to his jackassery. Thanos defeated the elders due to intelligence and guile. He accomplished his mission and matched wits with grandmaster and came out on top. Thanos has defeated Galactus twice. Once in ig and once in marvel's the end. He pwned Galactus along with Lt and all the rest. Anyway you look at it Thanos has him spanked.

I dont know if I believe Doom could handle it and as I see with you and master's debate it might not even be 616 Doom. But,I am a generous man take the feat. Doom needs all the help he can get.

Doom wasnt chosen for the power because Thanos was the better man. It has become the theme of this debate. Even you agree Thanos beats him,but you won give Thanos the stomp even though you know it to be true.

And Thanos has only done so whilst using an artifact of power that far surpasses Galactus in power, i.e. Infinity Gauntlet or THOTU. Otherwise, he's deferred to greater beings. Reed has beaten Abraxas with the Ultimate Nullifier, one of the most powerful artifacts in comics. Are you going to suggest that he should get more personal props than Thor who drove back a weak Galactus with Mjolnir? Then use that false distinction to argue that Reed would beat Thor in a curbstomp? I think not. You're waffling in your logic. You don't need to. Very few people have put much thought into what Dr. Doom has accomplished throughout the years. He gets automatic respect in the prep department, but not nearly as much as he deserves.

Doom could handle Beyonder's power a second time. I will get scans confirming this when I can. I'm not saying this speculatively. I'm saying this on the basis of on-panel proof. Dr. Doom would contain the Beyonder's power if he had a second chance. And 616 Doom is and always was Secret Wars Dr. Doom. That has been made clear to me with the newest scans that Mr. Master posted. The so-called "future" that Dr. Doom came from was the present-time in Fantastic Four #288. There was never some far-flung distant future or alternate reality Earth-12145 something-or-other where Beyonder grabbed Doom from. That feat is, and always has been 616 Dr. Doom's.

Thanos would never beat Doom in a stomp. Not when Doom is Thanos' superior in several key areas and matches Thanos' best feats in the cosmic arena. Keep your opinion, I know I won't change it. But there's no need to ignore or miscontrue what exactly Dr. Doom has accomplished.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

AHA! So it was the Doom from that time period! This so-called "Doom who never existed and was plucked from some indescript future" was the Doom in Fantastic Four #288! Don't you see?! This cements my position even further! This "future Doom" wasn't even a Doom from 10 years or dozens of years later; as Reed himself states, it was a Doom from, "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to our Doctor Doom!"

This is absolute pure and unequivocal evidence that the Dr. Doom that has always appeared in Secret Wars was our 616 Dr. Doom. There was NEVER a "future Doom that never existed." As Reed himself states, Beyonder isn't manipulating events to send back a 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars to replace some "non-existent future Doom," he is only doing exactly what his past self wanted to do, summoning a Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. That itself was the time-loop! Dr. Doom is, and always was, 616 Dr. Doom, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!"

As Reed himself unequivocally states, Secret Wars Doom was ALWAYS 616 Doom from Fantastic Four#288. If it was a different Doom at first, then there would have been no space-time paradox to close. If it was a different Doom he was replacing, let's say Doom from Earth-11435, then Beyonder and 616 reality would not be in danger. As it was 616 Doom himself and he had to be there, then it was ALWAYS 616 Doom. That is why there is danger to the space-time continuum in the first place!

AHA! As I originally thought when I read that issue several months ago. I knew there was something off when we discussed this in that other thread! I knew it! This completely closes the issue for me. Discussing this further has only confirmed my suspicions from the beginning. And truly, there is no turning back from this point on. So, keep your opinion, we will agree to disagree. Although, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why you would think otherwise.

Secret War Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288.

You must be under the impression good friend that if you bold up your opinion,
it will somehow force itself into factual truth ... but, nah.

... 616 Doom didn't have his body when Beyonder made Secret Wars,
616 Doom was still on Earth all that time, before and after Secret Wars.

The Doom that was involved in Secret Wars never existed.

616 Doom had never met,
or even seen the Beyonder up until a year and half after Secret Wars 1.

See, I can bold up the on panel facts too, doesn't mean anything.

I challenge you to find the future Doom Beyonder took, on panel, in #288.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And 616 Doom is and always was Secret Wars Dr. Doom. That has been made clear to me with the newest scans that Mr. Master posted. The so-called "future" that Dr. Doom came from was the present-time in Fantastic Four #288. There was never some far-flung distant future or alternate reality Earth-12145 something-or-other where Beyonder grabbed Doom from. That feat is, and always has been 616 Dr. Doom's.

616 Doom had absolutely nothing to do with the original Secret Wars.
That has been made clear to everyone with the newest scans I posted.

The future Doom came from a future he did not exist in,
this future later became the real present and guess what,
there is NO Doom in this present with his original body in the entire Universe,
so I'd like to know how 616 Doom, in McArthur's body, ended up being the Secret Wars Doom,
who had a completely different body and aura?

On Panel truth 1:

616 Doom was living a life with McArthur's woman, while Secret Wars was happening,
way before Secret Wars, since his body was obliterated in the Terrax incident back in 83'
up until # 288 below:

On Panel truth 2:

So basically,
you believe 616 Doom was existing in both Universes (616 & Battleworld) simultaneously? dontgetit

Originally posted by Mr Master
616 Doom had never met,
or even seen the Beyonder up until a year and half after Secret Wars 1.

You highlighted the exact premise that when combined with Reed's and Beyonder's statement solidifies the presence of the time loop. FF #288 616 Doom's presence in Secret Wars is the cause of the timeloop from the very start. Consider this: "Why would Beyonder be threatened by a time loop in the first place?" If the original Secret Wars Doom was a Doom from, say Earth-1425, there would be no paradox that threatens the timestream. This theoretical 1425 Doom had already performed his part of history and FF #288 616 Doom could be killed with impunity.

But as is made unequivocally clear, Beyonder could not risk killing FF #288 616 Doom. If he did, he risked undoing history, unravelling the time-loop and causing his own destruction. As Reed says, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!" If the FF #288 616 Doom was killed, Beyonder would have prevented history from happening as it already occurred, ruined the space-time continuum, destroyed time and destroyed himself:

Originally posted by Mr Master
I challenge you to find the future Doom Beyonder took, on panel, in #288.

Secret Wars Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288. The obvious paradox that presents is what threatened the space-time continuum and forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288.

EDIT: Put in wrong scan for second one. Fixed now.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not true.

616 Doom had absolutely nothing to do with the original Secret Wars.
That has been made clear to everyone with the newest scans I posted.

The future Doom came from a future he did not exist in,
this future later became the real present and guess what,
there is NO Doom in this present with his original body in the entire Universe,
so I'd like to know how 616 Doom, in McArthur's body, ended up being the Secret Wars Doom,
who had a completely different body and aura?

616 Doom was living a life with McArthur's woman, while Secret Wars was happening,
way before Secret Wars, since his body was obliterated in the Terrax incident back in 83'
up until # 288 below:

So basically,
you believe 616 Doom was existing in both Universes (616 & Battleworld) simultaneously? dontgetit

The paradox that is presented in your last question is exactly the paradox that forced Beyonder's hand.