Boba Fett, Jango Fett, General Grievous vs Mace Windu

Originally posted by Faunus
Because he can't use telekinesis or run away?

Again, Shatterpoint, against dozens of men with repeating blasters, and later against an army. Again, the Battle of Dantooine, against hundreds of thousands of blaster-firing droids.

yes but he can not do any of this while in an intense lightsaber fight.

and as Master Crimzon and I have already pointed out Jango himself is not considered and Easy opponent by Mace. Not by far!

Thats made clear in both the AOTC novel and Shatterpoint which you ironically keep referencing as proof that Mace would take down Jango, Boba and Greivous simultaneously!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The fact remains that Mace, in his first duel with Grievous, actually attacked the General with his lightsaber instead of force-crushing him, indicating that a force crush is not his preferred method of combat.

And as everyone knows, or should know, in vs. fights the character's personality is not taken into account. The characters will use whatever atatcks they have that will end things the quickest and most efficently, irregardless of how they canionically act.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
And as everyone knows, or should know, in vs. fights the character's personality is not taken into account. The characters will use whatever atatcks they have that will end things the quickest and most efficently, irregardless of how they canionically act.

Presumably, if General Grievous and Mace start out at close-range, Mace won't be able to use a force crush- which seemingly requires energy and concentration. While under the pressure of 20 strikes per second, he won't be able to pull a crush from his ass.

Even if they start out with considerable distance between each other, look how Mace- in the footage from The Clone Wars- reaches out, concentrates, and crushes Grievous, giving the bounty hunters the opening required to shoot him down. Or do you think he could crush Grievous and simultaneously deflect blaster bolts coming from the galaxy's greatest bounty hunters?

^Do you think that the trio can win. I don't think so. This is the same Windu who dueled the Dark Lord of the Sith, fought of an army of battledroids twice, and was considered by many to be the premier duelist of the Jedi Order.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, I gotta say, I disagree with that. Even in the AotC novel, the following quote notes that Mace actually had notable difficulty blocking Jango's bolts: "The man was good, Mace had to admit. Very good, and more than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts.".

Add Boba in, who is another extremely talented bounty hunter, and Grievous, who could, individually, give Mace a difficult fight, and I can't see Mace taking this.

And you note that using Force-crush may not be his first instinct, yet he doesn't hesitate to literally drive Grievous into the dirt with a STAP after the cyborg kills Adi Gallia. Mace is nothing if not efficient, and he'll do whatever he can as quickly as he can to get through this.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Presumably, if General Grievous and Mace start out at close-range, Mace won't be able to use a force crush- which seemingly requires energy and concentration. While under the pressure of 20 strikes per second, he won't be able to pull a crush from his ass.

Even if they start out with considerable distance between each other, look how Mace- in the footage from The Clone Wars- reaches out, concentrates, and crushes Grievous, giving the bounty hunters the opening required to shoot him down. Or do you think he could crush Grievous and simultaneously deflect blaster bolts coming from the galaxy's greatest bounty hunters?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Presumably, if General Grievous and Mace start out at close-range, Mace won't be able to use a force crush- which seemingly requires energy and concentration. While under the pressure of 20 strikes per second, he won't be able to pull a crush from his ass.

Yes, [b]if. And even then, you're assuming Mac can't use his blinding speed, ya know, the same one that he used to canonically defeat an entire army of battle droids with only his fists, the same speed he used to defeat Palpatine, the dark lord of the Sith, why? Shit, Obi-Wan did it.

Even if they start out with considerable distance between each other, look how Mace- in the footage from The Clone Wars- reaches out, concentrates, and crushes Grievous, giving the bounty hunters the opening required to shoot him down.

Mace held his hand out for about... hm... one whole second? Noteven three seconds later GG was on the ground.

Or do you think he could crush Grievous and simultaneously deflect blaster bolts coming from the galaxy's greatest bounty hunters? [/B]

Faunus, stop posting before me.

Stop being slooooow. I though black men were fast.

Wait, no. You're half-Mexican, so that must slow you down.

*end racial rant*

Black men are slow with technology. Mexicans too, incidentally. So I'm like, double slow.

AHH!!! You guys are all over me!!! I concede the point.

Okay, no, I don't. Still, you people need to let me take a breath before I respond to your gang-assault. I'm a human being, too, even if I'm neither black nor Mexican. 🙁

Originally posted by Faunus
That would be contradicted by the movie, in which there are only two points where Mace is close enough to "[put] Jango on the defensive." the first time, he's fending off super battle droid blaster-fire when he gets hit by a flamethrower, and the second time he rushes Fett and cuts his head off.

This particular piece of information only refers to the final engagement between Jango and Mace, and it contradicts nothing within the movies; having Jango shoot Mace, Mace blocking a few blows and then decapacitating the poor Mando. The novel only elaborates, stating it was difficult for Mace to block the bolts.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't understand what you guys aren't getting. Mace doesn't have to stand in one place and fend off Grievous's lightsaber strikes and the Fetts' blaster bolts. He can move, and really, really fast. He has the Force, and he uses it better than almost anybody else in his era. He possibly fought through a droid army with his bare hands.

And you note that using Force-crush may not be his first instinct, yet he doesn't hesitate to literally drive Grievous into the dirt with a STAP after the cyborg kills Adi Gallia. Mace is nothing if not efficient, and he'll do whatever he can as quickly as he can to get through this.

You're right on two counts; Mace is both an insanely fast force user and is efficient. However, using incredible levels of speed- 'blinding speed', that is- will obviously require a certain amount of effort from him, considering that he, for example, chose to take Jango's bolts head-on instead of manuevering around him with his insane speed and killing him. Is there really any indication of Mace being able to use a high-powered force assault- like a telekinetic crush, a high-level dark side ability, that is used to crush durasteel- while moving at his peak speeds (read: speeds fast enough to prevent the two deadliest bounty hunters in history to shoot him down?).

Originally posted by Faunus
Riiight. That's why Obi-Wan managed to charge up and unleash a Force-push that threw the General several dozen feet through the air.

First off, they had a half in their confrontation, AND force push =/= force crush; force push is an extremely simplistic force power, while force crush is one of the more advanced. Will Mace be able to crush Grievous' chest while fending off twenty strikes/second?

Speaking of which, do you have any friggin' clue as to why Mace didn't just crush Grievous' head? I mean, it would be just as easy, and it would be lethal. Meh.

Originally posted by Faunus
I forgot he has to be standing to use the force...

To use high-powered dark side abilities? Is there any record of Mace achieving such a powerful feat while moving at 'uber' speeds, considering that, if memory serves, he actually stopped whenever he force-owned the droids in the battle of Dantooine?

As for Blax, I'll only respond to the points that haven't been up before.

Mace held his hand out for about... hm... one whole second? Noteven three seconds later GG was on the ground.

Yeah. More than enough time for him to be shot down.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
This particular piece of information only refers to the final engagement between Jango and Mace, and it contradicts nothing within the movies; having Jango shoot Mace, Mace blocking a few blows and then decapacitating the poor Mando. The novel only elaborates, stating it was difficult for Mace to block the bolts.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that Jango is a punk. Mace himself holds him in extremely high regard; he considered him the "deadliest man in the galaxy," and believed that had he managed to kill Dooku instead of threaten Jango, the bounty hunter, "bristling" with weapons, would've killed him immediately in retribution.

You're right on two counts; Mace is both an insanely fast force user and is efficient. However, using incredible levels of speed- 'blinding speed', that is- will obviously require a certain amount of effort from him, considering that he, for example, chose to take Jango's bolts head-on instead of manuevering around him with his insane speed and killing him.

Is there really any indication of Mace being able to use a high-powered force assault- like a telekinetic crush, a high-level dark side ability, that is used to crush durasteel- while moving at his peak speeds (read: speeds fast enough to prevent the two deadliest bounty hunters in history to shoot him down?).

And Mace has deflected more shots, from more people, while heavily battered and not anywhere near "fresh." The Fetts can't hurt him.

First off, they had a half in their confrontation, AND force push =/= force crush; force push is an extremely simplistic force power, while force crush is one of the more advanced. Will Mace be able to crush Grievous' chest while fending off twenty strikes/second?

Speaking of which, do you have any friggin' clue as to why Mace didn't just crush Grievous' head? I mean, it would be just as easy, and it would be lethal. Meh.

To use high-powered dark side abilities? Is there any record of Mace achieving such a powerful feat while moving at 'uber' speeds, considering that, if memory serves, he actually stopped whenever he force-owned the droids in the battle of Dantooine?

And in the CWC, I distinctly recall him rushing head-on at eight SBDs, looping around in mid-air, and performing a sliding-Force-crush on them. While they're shooting at him.

But seriously, if we're actually going to bring in the cartoon, Mace utterly rapes this. His shatterpoint ability allowed him to literally dismantle a droid, then send its pieces flying through several. His Force-grip can target and annihilate multiple enemies at once - enemies made purely of circuitry and steel. And of course, he's already owned Grievous in that, so he could easily do so again.

Faunus hasn't ever responded to me before! Sorry if these have all already been dealt with- Yesterday was crazy.

Originally posted by Faunus
He doesn't need to. They're men in armor, with guns. A stroke of his weapon anywhere and that's it.

Of course, he notes in Shatterpoint that even if he'd managed to kill Dooku instead of threatening Jango, the bounty hunter would've killed him immediately. So if Mace somehow screw up, he will die.

Originally posted by Faunus
Which is why Mace Force-pushed him off of a train (mag-lev) in Labyrinth of Evil, right?

Originally posted by Faunus
Actually, it's how to counter telekinesis, but yeah, that would be more than implied as well.

Originally posted by Faunus
Not for very long. He began mimicking the motions of Vaapad, and Mace decided he'd had enough. He cut the floor out from under Grievous, dodged the counter-attack, and Force-pushed him off of the mag-lev. This, while having to fight and keep from being blasted off said transport while moving at high speeds, when all Grievous had to do was turn on the magnets in his feet.

Originally posted by Faunus
Not nearly enough. Mace dealt with far worse in Shatterpoint, and the Battle of Dantooine had him single-handedly fight through a droid army and bring down a seismic tank, possibly with his bare hands, depending on what source you look at. He was fast enough to land six blows on Kar Vastor before the man could blink, and Jaina Solo - someone who had only just learned the shatterpoint technique - was capable of destroying supposedly indestructible armor with only a small burst of directed telekinetic energy at the weak points. Mace, who has mastered it beyond anything we've ever seen and used it in truly astonishing manners should be able to do the same to the Fetts' armor, then grind Grievous into the ground.

The Mandalorian armor is a non-issue. The lightsaber cuts through it just like everything else. (at least on Jango) If he destroys the armor, they still have guns to shoot at him, and would be trying to stay out of range of his saber anyway. Neither are stupid in regards to basic tactics.

Mace's speed would swing the duel if it was only against Grievous. In the Kar Vastor fight, he didn't have people shooting at him and disrupting the fight. In the Clone Wars event he wasn't dueling a highly dangerous Saber combatant. The two methods of fighting (one on one and vs. MANY gunslingers) require much different mindsets, awareness, saber styles and techniques. Combining the two diminishes capability in both.

Originally posted by Faunus
No, according to the novel he puts Jango on the defensive with short strokes and jabs. In the movie, he runs up, blocks five or six shots, and cuts his head off.

He blocks them, but it's impossible to tell if he blocks them with difficulty or without difficulty. The novel maintains that he did it with difficulty, and nothing in the movie suggests that it was easy.

Originally posted by Faunus
Of course, I'm not suggesting that Jango is a punk. Mace himself holds him in extremely high regard; he considered him the "deadliest man in the galaxy," and believed that had he managed to kill Dooku instead of threaten Jango, the bounty hunter, "bristling" with weapons, would've killed him immediately in retribution.

More proof that Jango would be able to cause Mace some serious damage with the addition of his team.

Originally posted by Faunus
He ended up killing him in mere seconds anyway, so it clearly wasn't necessary.

If we go by what you say- the EXTREMELY high regard he held Jango in- it is only plausible that Mace would go all-out and take the absolute best way to kills someone who could actually be a threat to him. Really, if Jango's jetpack wasn't trampled, it's impossible to know what Mace would've done.

Originally posted by Faunus
It's aggrandized telekinesis, nothing more.

Telekinesis used in a deadly, brutal fashion- not only is it inherently a dark side ability, it is used to crush durasteel, not some weak-ass metal. That should require effort on Mace's part.

Originally posted by Faunus
And Mace has deflected more shots, from more people, while heavily battered and not anywhere near "fresh." The Fetts can't hurt him.

Yeah, by Mace's own admission, Jango could have killed him if he spent the time to kill the good ol' Count. He could have hurt him; even the novel says that he was sometimes in danger. Against Jango without a jetpack and with only one blaster.

Originally posted by Faunus
Again, aggrandized telekinesis, and again, he can just run away. Hell, he managed to launch himself at Kar Vastor with enough speed and power that when the two men collided, lightning coruscated around them and lanced back into the ground and the trees. He was fast enough to land six blows on a man with the raw power of Yoda before he could even blink.

Run away, crush Grievous, and own the Fetts? I guess it's pretty much plausible, unless one of the Fetts snipes him or something. Still, if he gets tangled in a duel with Grievous, he's f*cked.

Originally posted by Faunus
PIS.

Well, that's blunt. 😐

Originally posted by Faunus
Well, he held a loose, rough mound consisting of several hundred tons of unstable rock and gravel in place while scampering down it. He tipped an unbalanced steamcrawler back into place when it started teetering at the edge of a precipice.

Yes, Mace is indeed a beast, but it's a far cry from crushing something made out of the hardest metal in the galaxy (right), while moving at peak speed and dodging shots from the two deadliest bounty hunters in galactic history.

Originally posted by Faunus
And in the CWC, I distinctly recall him rushing head-on at eight SBDs, looping around in mid-air, and performing a sliding-Force-crush on them. While they're shooting at him.

SBD =/= Grievous, and SBD =/= Jango. Skill, percision, and accuracy > rate of fire.

Originally posted by Faunus
But seriously, if we're actually going to bring in the cartoon, Mace utterly rapes this.

It is physically impossible to rape Grievous. Unless...

Ugh. So much for a good night's sleep.

Originally posted by Faunus
His shatterpoint ability allowed him to literally dismantle a droid, then send its pieces flying through several. His Force-grip can target and annihilate multiple enemies at once - enemies made purely of circuitry and steel. And of course, he's already owned Grievous in that, so he could easily do so again.

You have a point. I can see Mace taking this, after all, but it wouldn't be close to easily, and if he gets tangled in a duel, he's dead.

If the second it would have took Mace to kill Dooku is all Jango Fett needed to shoot Mace down(according to Mace's own logbbok in Shatterpoint), then how on Earth is Mace going to survive both Jango Fett and Boba Fett shooting at him while battling Greivous.

Not gna happen.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Yes, [b]if. And even then, you're assuming Mac can't use his blinding speed, ya know, the same one that he used to canonically defeat an entire army of battle droids with only his fists, the same speed he used to defeat Palpatine, the dark lord of the Sith, why? [/B]

you talking about the clone wars cartoons. did you not notice GG's blinding speed in those cartoons which he used to canonically dominate 5 jedis simultaneously including Senior Council Member Ki-Adi-Mundi??

as for the fight with Sidious, Vapaads superconducting loop made Mace as fast as Sidious for that fight only. He wuldnt be that fast in this fight.

again if the time it took Mace to strike down Dooku is all it would have taken for Jango to shoot down Mace, then how on Earth is Mace going to survive shots from both Boba and Jango while fighting off Greivous???

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
you talking about the clone wars cartoons. did you not notice GG's blinding speed in those cartoons which he used to canonically dominate 5 jedis simultaneously including Senior Council Member Ki-Adi-Mundi??

as for the fight with Sidious, Vapaads superconducting loop made Mace as fast as Sidious for that fight only. He wuldnt be that fast in this fight.

again if the time it took Mace to strike down Dooku is all it would have taken for Jango to shoot down Mace, then how on Earth is Mace going to survive shots from both Boba and Jango while fighting off Greivous???

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Look in the CW cartoon Mace's gunship gets shot down, he lands in front of grievous and in a half second he crushes his chest, grievous is on the ground coughing. But lets look at obsession shall we, when Grievous is so dumbstuck by Mace's power he's like Huh? then gets flattened by a STAP. And seriously Mace could just unleash a massive force wave like he used to push back an army of SBDs, then crush Grievous' chest and proceed to pwn the fetts. Once that is done he will move to finish Grievous

In both those scenarios he was sum distance away from GG, so was not in lightsaber range, and only had GG to focus on.

again Mace says himself if he took a second to go attack dooku then Jango Fett would have killed him in that second.. and GG being as fast as he is should be more than enough of a distraction for Jango and Boba together to shoot him down.

and btw the Massive Force Wave thing was a huge exaggeration of Mace's power. he wasnt able to do anything like that when up against the droids in AOTC.