Pyron Vs God kratos, kain , Sparda

Originally posted by Terryc250
No Kain does NOT say that in the storyline, he only says it IF the [b]optional spell IS gained, which it most likely isn't. We've been over this about a hundred times now.

I've given you plently of examples you just refuse to believe it, and keep repeating yourself because you're to stubborn to concede when you have no argument left.

The bottom line is, the spell is optional, yes theres a description of it IF the spell is gained, but nothing suggests the optional spell is actually gained in the canon plot storyline, just as nothing suggests Cloud and party gained KOTR or Master Materia in the actual plot storyline.

Because he is leagues above him, he's just as above Cloud as Ganon is above Link, probably even more.

So he just let Raziel rip his heart out? If he had these so called spells he should've been able to neutralize him if he didn't want to kill him.

Well you just said the current Kain (who has all the spell supposedly) has lived through BO2, so why didn't he use any of the spells while he was in BO2? Or any of his appearances in SR? And give me the evidence that he actually re-acquired all of the spells, and not just regained the memory of the events.

Nor did i say the players decisions influenced it, i said if the player has a decision in the story, then in the story kain has a decision as well, which is true.

If something is optional for the player, it means its possible as well for Kain to not have gotten the spell.

For example, a mandatory materia in the storyline of FF7 is Fire, he needed it to ignite a mako reactor, that means in the story Cloud actually gets Fire materia, its a canon materia to the story, however optional materia like KOTR is a big "maybe" that he gets it in the story, yes its optional for the player, and its a "maybe" for Cloud.

Same thing with BO, Kain needed energy bolt to reach the switch in the story, but optional spells like spirit death is a "maybe" as well, its optional, and nothing suggests that he actually got it in the canon story.

Yes it is dialogue, BT you're really just picking at straws now rofl.

Its just as "in gameplay" as Raziel moving blocks, then you using that as "Kains skin can stand TONS OF WEIGHT!" lol, its no different from Cloud being run over from a 60 ton bolder.

Dude, to you BT, Kain can beat anyone so you saying that means basically nothing.
Why would Sephiroth take an hour to cast spells? Rofl.
Magic from the NL works basically instant, Sephiroth is about 30x faster then Kain, has instant teleport, has 30x more powerful TK, Kain is nothing. Sorry BT but its the truth.

He blitz'd him? Rofl, more like Raziel just stood there and let Kain slash at him then stab him. And he did lose momentum why do you think he "stopped" ? Not losing momentum is Cloud shooting upwards and cutting up building pieces while keeping his momentum speed upwards, until Sephiroth hit him.

Sephiroth just toying around is about 50x more impressive then featless Kain.

But Kain doesn't say that in the actual STORYLINE, only if the spell is OBTAINED, which it isn't <-- try to cram that into your head please.

Haha what a good answer, I should start saying Cloud can bust planets, then just say "Why should he have to? He's got Omnislash"

Uhh after Raziel slashed him, he just stood there for like 5 seconds doing nothing, that should be plenty of time to bust out his uber spells.

He gains back his memory of the events, but i'm waiting on evidence on if he actually acquires his spells again. [/B]

What are you calling storyline again? since its all part of the story, he speaks as if it was part of the universe/story, so yeh it is, the optional part is gameplay which is not taken into canon, here ill help you understand by boldening the parts of your point here that is gamepaly. And the fact its not a description of what the spell doesin gameplay but in the universe its in makes it canon.

Unfortunaley hes not an American, he doesnt shoot first and ask questions later, he doesnt blast Raziel with a brain destroying bolt or freeze him in time to w8 around reading a magazine while Raziel unfreezes hoping Raziel is going to be civil afterwards, he was coming to him as a friend but the Hylden evil was pushing him into kiling Kain while Kain wasnt even prone to anything of the sort.

heavens above it seems ime just confusing you, heres how it is:

Kains real history is in Blood omen one, the first game right?

now...due to events in Soul reaver, a new timeline was created seperate from the mainstream that was Blood omen 2 which is where Kain lost his powers, however, the only kain to lose the powers was the BO 2 kain because the Kain in the present has actually excisted in BO 1 timeline but gained the BO2 as memories, so he has both the memoeries of BO 1 and BO 2, meaning he has the memory and powers of his former spells.

Thus in conclusion Kain has not lost any spells presently, only the BO 2 kain did, the events of BO 2 however only came to the present Elder Kain as memories. therefore Defiance is the only time we see Kain where he doesnt use spells, only ONE sequel.

yes you are, your claiming that the Players option which is all the players option is also Kains when Kains story is already written for him, he doesnt atually have a choice since the developers have already written out the events for him that will take place.

But things being mandatory for the playe mean nothing unless theres actualyl storyline behind the objects, if you needed a spell or object to access somewhere, that doesnt mean anything unless its stated somewhere in the story, otherwise its just gameplay. Its the descriptions that are important and what beings in the unviersrse say out of gameplay.

yeh its dialogue, just nothing much about the Master materia, I think your the one whos dieing argument leaves you picking at straws but mostly just gamepaly.

It is diffrent because no gameplay/balance calculation is made for Raziel pulling blocks about, their simply puzzle items, their volume and weight is static, the player has nothing to do with that and theres no balance to stop the player from being curb stomped like in the gamepaly with Cloud, the rocks one hitting him would be balance calcualted for damage.

Sephiroth is a joke, and it does mean something coming from me since a handfull of people agree but thats irrelvent, what is, is the fact that Sephiroth hasnt cast any spells from the Negative lifestream and the only powers that have been cast from it have been weak shadow dogs...his teleport is sluggish at best unless you have a new video to show. His TK has never even shown the ability to hold people down completly without their arms flaling about.

He stops when he has already got face to face with Raziel, under his own speed, he doesnt lose momentum after hitting the rock.

lol wut? yeh in your crazy little FF world...Sephiroth does nothing...nothing imrpessive at all, nice little dodge of my question though.

Kain tells us he obtained the spell lmao..what are you talking about it "isnzt zomg why arnt you listening to my logicless points!!" ., kain has already told us he gained the spell, the optional part is just that a gameplay option....GAAAMMMEEEPLAAYY say it with me...g-a-m-e-p-l-a-y.

err what points to Cloud even logically or in any way part of the gameplay, or universe be anything to do with busting planets, thats not even within the capabilities of FF universe...certainly not FF7

Thats like saying why a guy with a gun cant shoot back after being shot 20 times...he just cant, their badly damaged/weakened.

lol once again, ill explain, he doesnt lose his spells, only BO2 kain does, the present Kain gains MEMORIES from BO2 due to a time anomoly, he doesnt forget anything BO2, he gains BO2 itself as a memory of events after changing time, he has lived BO1 and BO2 timelines.

Originally posted by Peach
Weren't you just banned for this behaviour?

Oh, that's right, you were.

Knock it off or there's going to be another ban.

and what sort of behaviour would that be, specifically? i only see truth in that statement, minus any jutified insults. or wait, havent you really been reading the posts of the members you ban, try reading some of burning thought's stuff. i dont like biased or uninformed moderaters.

For the record BT, pushing something and lifting sumthin are different, it is alot easier to push something.

Raziel does both so its irrelvent

He lifts 40 tons?

He lifts about 20 and pushes 40, still impressive, you couldnt push 40 tonnes without aid, especially not a block of concrete, nobody could. You would have to have a massive strength value.

You can't push 5 tons without aid. 😐

I don't see your point.

the queer blue guy is strong, thats the point

stronger than kain thats for sure.

lol Leon your baiting is not only obvious but also weak since Kain manhandles raziel many times.....

Originally posted by leonheartmm
and what sort of behaviour would that be, specifically? i only see truth in that statement, minus any jutified insults. or wait, havent you really been reading the posts of the members you ban, try reading some of burning thought's stuff. i dont like biased or uninformed moderaters.

Justified insults?

No such thing.

Bashing is bashing, no matter your 'excuses', which hold no water.

oh BT has me all figured out, LMAO. it was just a statement of fact, i wudnt waste my time baiting you. {and like raziel has never manhandled kain}

if u didnt read, i said there are NO justifiable insults in the post, meaning, your warning was baseless and unfounded.

as for the last statement, nice excuse for not doing your job peach.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What are you calling storyline again? since its all part of the story, he speaks as if it was part of the universe/story, so yeh it is, the optional part is gameplay which is not taken into canon, here ill help you understand by boldening the parts of your point here that is gamepaly. And the fact its not a description of what the spell doesin gameplay but in the universe its in makes it canon.

Something being optional is character decision meaning the character makes a decision, we don't know what his decision is however, the players decision and the characters decision could differ.

I've given you examples already, with dialogue which means just because theres dialogue doesn't prove anything.

Its no different dialogue then what Master Materia had, the dialogue in that mentioned Ultimate weapon, and Meteor, in-world things, KOTR mentioned the Mako.

So going by your logic, that means Cloud has KOTR and Master Materia. Which is as wrong as your logic.

Unfortunaley hes not an American, he doesnt shoot first and ask questions later, he doesnt blast Raziel with a brain destroying bolt or freeze him in time to w8 around reading a magazine while Raziel unfreezes hoping Raziel is going to be civil afterwards, he was coming to him as a friend but the Hylden evil was pushing him into kiling Kain while Kain wasnt even prone to anything of the sort.

Realistically if he had all these uber spells he could've shot him back with an energy bolt, froze him with incapacitate, or something.. but he couldn't do nothing so that means something.

heavens above it seems ime just confusing you, heres how it is:

Kains real history is in Blood omen one, the first game right?

now...due to events in Soul reaver, a new timeline was created seperate from the mainstream that was Blood omen 2 which is where Kain lost his powers, however, the only kain to lose the powers was the BO 2 kain because the Kain in the present has actually excisted in BO 1 timeline but gained the BO2 as memories, so he has both the memoeries of BO 1 and BO 2, meaning he has the memory and powers of his former spells.

Thus in conclusion Kain has not lost any spells presently, only the BO 2 kain did, the events of BO 2 however only came to the present Elder Kain as memories. therefore Defiance is the only time we see Kain where he doesnt use spells, only ONE sequel.

But anyway my point still stands that he never uses the optional spells in any of the games he appears in after BO1.

yes you are, your claiming that the Players option which is all the players option is also Kains when Kains story is already written for him, he doesnt atually have a choice since the developers have already written out the events for him that will take place.

But things being mandatory for the playe mean nothing unless theres actualyl storyline behind the objects, if you needed a spell or object to access somewhere, that doesnt mean anything unless its stated somewhere in the story, otherwise its just gameplay. Its the descriptions that are important and what beings in the unviersrse say out of gameplay.

yeh its dialogue, just nothing much about the Master materia, I think your the one whos dieing argument leaves you picking at straws but mostly just gamepaly.

Not every single game is like LOK, every game has a different presentation, that dialogue is basically exactly the same as LOK but in FF7 style, it mentions in-world things, etc.

It is diffrent because no gameplay/balance calculation is made for Raziel pulling blocks about, their simply puzzle items, their volume and weight is static, the player has nothing to do with that and theres no balance to stop the player from being curb stomped like in the gamepaly with Cloud, the rocks one hitting him would be balance calcualted for damage.

Your basically saying unless its a positive for a LOK character, then its real, but if its a FF character, there must be something to it, something gameplay to make it fake.

Sephiroth is a joke, and it does mean something coming from me since a handfull of people agree but thats irrelvent, what is, is the fact that Sephiroth hasnt cast any spells from the Negative lifestream and the only powers that have been cast from it have been weak shadow dogs...his teleport is sluggish at best unless you have a new video to show. His TK has never even shown the ability to hold people down completly without their arms flaling about.

Sephiroth didn't use any of his powers in his fight against Cloud, he was toying around, this is fact.

His teleport is sluggish? His teleporting is instant, unlike Kains.

Kain can only TK small objects, or hold people by their neck and he has to hold out his arm to do it (and the person being TK'd can move any part of their body)

Sephiroth on the other hand has held up 8 people at once torturing them, at the same time holding Holy, easily dropping the top of Shinra building, all with just a glance.

He stops when he has already got face to face with Raziel, under his own speed, he doesnt lose momentum after hitting the rock.

lol wut? yeh in your crazy little FF world...Sephiroth does nothing...nothing imrpessive at all, nice little dodge of my question though.

Because your question is ridiculous, "why should he have to?" you can claim anything for just about any main character then say that.

Kain tells us he obtained the spell lmao..what are you talking about it "isnzt zomg why arnt you listening to my logicless points!!" ., kain has already told us he gained the spell, the optional part is just that a gameplay option....GAAAMMMEEEPLAAYY say it with me...g-a-m-e-p-l-a-y.

But in this case, Kain most likely did not gain that optional spell because of the fact that he's never done it in the storyline/sequals ever.

err what points to Cloud even logically or in any way part of the gameplay, or universe be anything to do with busting planets, thats not even within the capabilities of FF universe...certainly not FF7

lol once again, ill explain, he doesnt lose his spells, only BO2 kain does, the present Kain gains MEMORIES from BO2 due to a time anomoly, he doesnt forget anything BO2, he gains BO2 itself as a memory of events after changing time, he has lived BO1 and BO2 timelines.

He simply just doesn't have it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Something being optional is NOT gameplay, something being optional means it is possible its not even in the actual canon storyline.

Something being optional is [b]character decision meaning the character makes a decision, we don't know what his decision is however, the players decision and the characters decision could differ.

I've given you examples already, with dialogue which means just because theres dialogue doesn't prove anything.

Its no different dialogue then what Master Materia had, the dialogue in that mentioned Ultimate weapon, and Meteor, in-world things, KOTR mentioned the Mako.

So going by your logic, that means Cloud has KOTR and Master Materia. Which is as wrong as your logic.

Rofl so he just stands there and lets his heart get ripped out? Right.

Realistically if he had all these uber spells he could've shot him back with an energy bolt, froze him with incapacitate, or something.. but he couldn't do nothing so that means something.

He still gains back his memories near the end of BO2, and still doesn't have his spells.

But anyway my point still stands that he never uses the optional spells in any of the games he appears in after BO1.

Yes but we don't know what the developers wrote if he gains the optional spells in the story or not, dialogue means nothing, i've given you evidence for that already, Kain might've gained optional spell1 but didn't get optional spell2, we'll never know. But nothing suggests that he did get spirit death because of the fact that hes never soul ripped anyone in the LOK storyline, and the spell was unheard again.

If Kain needed the spell to reach a switch, chances are that is part of the story, how else would he have reached it? If Cloud needed the fire materia to ignite the mako reactor, chances are its part of the story. Not every game gives you a direct voice description of the item you gained, thats only LOK, in FF when you gain any item it doesn't give you a description unless you open up the menu and highlight the item, does that mean every single thing in FF in uncanon? No. Every game has different styles of presentation.

Again your trying to make things like "If its not like LOK, then its uncanon"

Not every single game is like LOK, every game has a different presentation, that dialogue is basically exactly the same as LOK but in FF7 style, it mentions in-world things, etc.

It has nothing to do with damage, there is no damage factor, there is no damage at all, its just Cloud being run over by a bolder in a puzzle-like sequence just like Raziel, outside of gameplay battle, there is no damage factor/calculation.

Your basically saying unless its a positive for a LOK character, then its real, but if its a FF character, there must be something to it, something gameplay to make it fake.

His weak remnants did, use your common sense BT.

Sephiroth didn't use any of his powers in his fight against Cloud, he was toying around, this is fact.

His teleport is sluggish? His teleporting is instant, unlike Kains.

Kain can only TK small objects, or hold people by their neck and he has to hold out his arm to do it (and the person being TK'd can move any part of their body)

Sephiroth on the other hand has held up 8 people at once torturing them, at the same time holding Holy, easily dropping the top of Shinra building, all with just a glance.

Who cares he only travelled like a few meters and stopped.

Kain has done nothing at all rofl.

Because your question is ridiculous, "why should he have to?" you can claim anything for just about any main character then say that. [/B]

wtf now? now your saying that its not part of the gameplay that the player has an option? the option is only in the gameplay, not the storyline....

Yes it could differ, since Kain obviously chooses to gain the spells because he has dialogue for them, the player on the other hand is not taken into the equation, their irrelvent and so is their choice.

it is completly diffrent, here is the diffrences:

Master materia is mentioned off the hand, its basically as canon dialogue as a shopkeeper telling you what goods hes selling, the guy doesnt go into detail to make the Master materia part of the world like Kains, all he does is mention it

Kain is the main character and is a real part of the plot overall, this guy is not not to mention he is basically just an NPC as well

now if the guy said somethig like "master materia, forged with the lifestream by great wizards etc etc", he is not just a shopkeeper NPC, he is a being who is telling a story, part of the in-universe story...now hes just mentioning a name, hardly anything like Kains spells from the main character.

er wtf? where are we now? first ime talking about when he first meets raziel like i thought you asked before, now apprently this is after Kain was slashed and attacked by Raziel which ive also covered?

As ive already covered the effects the spells would have, he has no reqirement to either destroy or anger razel by freezing him in time, and no, ill correct your words, "but he did not do anything", you said couldnt, which is obviously not true since even you know kain has TK as well which could do a simliar effect...he didnt do that either.

yh you still confused, current Kain doesnt really live through BO2 and lose his spells, he lives through the memories and such as a seperate timeline, but hes dont everything diffrently in the others, so technically hes lived through the timeline where he doesnt even have BO 2, and keeps his spells as well as the one where he loses them, thus giving us current Kain with his BO1 spells AND Bo2 powers.

We do know because he has the dialogue that tells you he gains them, Kain tells us, the fact a player is too lazy to go and get a spell so he doesnt hear it is irrelvent, Kain isnt controlled by humans in the canon either....wally lol. However has controlled souls in the storylie by ripping them out from the underworld and resurrecting bodies.

How else? maybe he didnt, maybe he just turned to mist and floated under the gate, maybe he just punched a hole through it, maybe he just teleported or just jumped over the wall. Your talking gameplay again, everything the player does is gameplay, pushing switches, hitting buttons etc etc, the fact theres a 2 ft high ledge next to a player but they cannot get over it because theres not a "jump" button in the game doesnt mean Kain cannot jump..your talking nonsense.

No it mans every single item in FF that DOES NOT have a canon dialogue with it is uncanon, not everything. But all materia types like Kights of the round and such are uncanon yes.

No ime trying to make you realise that an NPC who simply mentions something doesnt make it canon.

ofc theres a damage factor, you just cannot see it, its behind the gameplay, when things hit a players character, balance is included so he doesnt die to quickly or otherwise it would be bothersome, balance is in all gameplay and it imediatley comes into effect when something is applied ti a players character when he is hit, thus why Raziels enemies are not cut in half when he slashes them with a sword and it takes about 5 slices...balance..

Does anything actually call them "weak" remnants...and btw read my post again, i mentioned their sad shadow dogs...

Show me this "instant", kains is just as fast most likely

yh Kain can TK small objects, like blood cells, he could prob just dump all the Jenova cells out of faggotry sephiroth for an easy win but Kain has shown better control over TK, Sephiroth has never touched small objects or held a person solid.

he held up 8 people the same way Kain would hold up one, with their arms flaling about....Holy is still a zero feat, the thing has no base behind its weight, frictional movement or how hard it is overall to stop. Can you actually prove he broke the top off Shinra tower?

yh so you agree, he moved about 4/5 meters actually, the fact is, he was a combo of fast and strong the likes of which a Sarafan couldnt deal with.

No my question was not ridiculous, I was asking what Sephiroth has done thats really so impressive? ....lol

Originally posted by Terryc250
But its not gameplay genius, I've stated so many times now, optional items/magic/equipment are basically just bonus things apart the mainstream storyline items/magic, they may, or may not have been acquired by the actual character in the story.

But in this case, Kain most likely did not gain that optional spell because of the fact that he's never done it in the storyline/sequals ever.

What points to Kain being able to rip peoples souls out? Some optional spell from 4 sequals ago which was milleniums ago, in which hes never done it before or even mentioned it before, exactly.

My point still stands, even after BO2 Kain regains his memories he doesn't have the spells, or mentions anything about them or does it to anyone, that aside, his appearance in SR,SR2 he's never done it, in defiance hes never done it or mentioned it.

He simply just doesn't have it.

Optional items may be but Optional items that are linked in with the in-canon game make them canon, simple...Kain himself tells us he has them,little bonus powerups like Materia on the other hand are as you said, uncanon.

Ive told you about how BO2 is a alternate timeline, Kain has already lived through both so what happened in BO2 doesnt affect his spells.

In SR1 he does cast a spell that looks like Sprit death against Raziel however as we see, Kain is hardly in the game, hes in the beginning then at the end, same as in SR2, hes hardly in it like you Sephiroth fans go on about "he woz only ins AC for like 5 mins he couldnt hav shown all his uberer powerz!", really all you can say is "he never used the spells in Defiance" since the rest he didnt get a chance nor would it make sense to have Kain letting loose 100 spells or more in gameplay to destroy raziel.

Originally posted by Burning thought
wtf now? now your saying that its not part of the gameplay that the player has an option? the option is only in the gameplay, not the storyline....

Yes it could differ, since Kain obviously chooses to gain the spells because he has dialogue for them, the player on the other hand is not taken into the equation, their irrelvent and so is their choice.

it is completly diffrent, here is the diffrences:

Master materia is mentioned off the hand, its basically as canon dialogue as a shopkeeper telling you what goods hes selling, the guy doesnt go into detail to make the Master materia part of the world like Kains, all he does is mention it

Kain is the main character and is a real part of the plot overall, this guy is not not to mention he is basically just an NPC as well

now if the guy said somethig like "master materia, forged with the lifestream by great wizards etc etc", he is not just a shopkeeper NPC, he is a being who is telling a story, part of the in-universe story...now hes just mentioning a name, hardly anything like Kains spells from the main character.

Your basically trying to argue "If its not like LOK, its not canon".

And he is not a "shopkeeper" he is the elder of Kalm Village.

Spirit Death doesn't go into detail about how it was created either.. he just gives a quick description, like he does with any other spell.

There wasn't a single materia in FF7 that when it was obtained, Cloud shouts out a description, thats not how the style of game is in FF7, does that make every materia uncanon? No.

The only ones that are possibly uncanon are the optional ones.

Thats the bottom line here.

er wtf? where are we now? first ime talking about when he first meets raziel like i thought you asked before, now apprently this is after Kain was slashed and attacked by Raziel which ive also covered?

As ive already covered the effects the spells would have, he has no reqirement to either destroy or anger razel by freezing him in time, and no, ill correct your words, "but he did not do anything", you said couldnt, which is obviously not true since even you know kain has TK as well which could do a simliar effect...he didnt do that either.

If Kain had his spells, he would've just froze him or used another one of his almighty spells while Raziel was slashing at Kain and Kain was trying to reason with him, then neutralize him so he can reason with him.

yh you still confused, current Kain doesnt really live through BO2 and lose his spells, he lives through the memories and such as a seperate timeline, but hes dont everything diffrently in the others, so technically hes lived through the timeline where he doesnt even have BO 2, and keeps his spells as well as the one where he loses them, thus giving us current Kain with his BO1 spells AND Bo2 powers.

He has memories of the events, but what says he acquires the spells as well? But anyway it doesn't matter since he probably didn't even get the optional spells in the first place.

When you play BO2, you regain the memories of BO1 back in the story. Yet the BO2 Kain still wasn't able to use any of the optional spells.

We do know because he has the dialogue that tells you he gains them, Kain tells us, the fact a player is too lazy to go and get a spell so he doesnt hear it is irrelvent, Kain isnt controlled by humans in the canon either....wally lol. However has controlled souls in the storylie by ripping them out from the underworld and resurrecting bodies.

Show me Kain ripping souls out from the underworld and ressurecting bodies please.

How else? maybe he didnt, maybe he just turned to mist and floated under the gate, maybe he just punched a hole through it, maybe he just teleported or just jumped over the wall. Your talking gameplay again, everything the player does is gameplay, pushing switches, hitting buttons etc etc, the fact theres a 2 ft high ledge next to a player but they cannot get over it because theres not a "jump" button in the game doesnt mean Kain cannot jump..your talking nonsense.

No it mans every single item in FF that DOES NOT have a canon dialogue with it is uncanon, not everything. But all materia types like Kights of the round and such are uncanon yes.

KOTR, Master Materia are no different from Spirit Death.

No ime trying to make you realise that an NPC who simply mentions something doesnt make it canon.

Its all other characters talking to him.

Basically you might as well just say if its good for LOK its canon, if its good for FF7 its uncanon, because thats what your aiming at.

ofc theres a damage factor, you just cannot see it, its behind the gameplay, when things hit a players character, balance is included so he doesnt die to quickly or otherwise it would be bothersome, balance is in all gameplay and it imediatley comes into effect when something is applied ti a players character when he is hit, thus why Raziels enemies are not cut in half when he slashes them with a sword and it takes about 5 slices...balance..

in Marvel Ultimate Alliance, theres a part where you can have Wolverine push blocks that were well over 10 tons, Wolverine cannot do that in the actual comics but in-world gameplay he can, in FF7 you have Cloud walking around and hes about the size of towns, you can have the reaver slash at a wall without it being even scratched, Cloud gets ran over by 60 ton bolders without even getting hurt.

Not everything in the in-world gameplay is accurate.

Does anything actually call them "weak" remnants...and btw read my post again, i mentioned their sad shadow dogs...

They're magic summons, and they're tougher then those little knights Kain fights.

Show me this "instant", kains is just as fast most likely

yh Kain can TK small objects, like blood cells, he could prob just dump all the Jenova cells out of faggotry sephiroth for an easy win but Kain has shown better control over TK, Sephiroth has never touched small objects or held a person solid.

he held up 8 people the same way Kain would hold up one, with their arms flaling about....Holy is still a zero feat, the thing has no base behind its weight, frictional movement or how hard it is overall to stop. Can you actually prove he broke the top off Shinra tower?

Holy was stated to beable to destroy everything on the planet, it is the antithesis of Meteor, and it disintegrated Meteor, Holy has more feats then Kain rofl.

Neither does an explosion, going by that logic an explosion should be easy to TK (which it isn't)

Holy is destructive energy that can travel continents in seconds, it would rip through anything trying to contain it unless whatever contains it is that powerful.

yh so you agree, he moved about 4/5 meters actually, the fact is, he was a combo of fast and strong the likes of which a Sarafan couldnt deal with.

No my question was not ridiculous, I was asking what Sephiroth has done thats really so impressive? ....lol

Stop Holy with sheer willpower
Willed himself back to life a couple times
Took control over the source of power,energy,life,magic
Became the newest evolution of Jenova
Created a plague
Threatened to transform the entire planet into his vessel

What has Kain done?

-Cont.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]Optional items may be but Optional items that are linked in with the in-canon game make them canon, simple...Kain himself tells us he has them,little bonus powerups like Materia on the other hand are as you said, uncanon.

Kain only says he has them IF he gains it, but there sno proof that he does gain it, just like any of the optional materia/items.

Ive told you about how BO2 is a alternate timeline, Kain has already lived through both so what happened in BO2 doesnt affect his spells.

In SR1 he does cast a spell that looks like Sprit death against Raziel however as we see, Kain is hardly in the game, hes in the beginning then at the end, same as in SR2, hes hardly in it like you Sephiroth fans go on about "he woz only ins AC for like 5 mins he couldnt hav shown all his uberer powerz!", really all you can say is "he never used the spells in Defiance" since the rest he didnt get a chance nor would it make sense to have Kain letting loose 100 spells or more in gameplay to destroy raziel.

Sephiroth doesn't use his powers, thats fact, hes toying around, Kain isn't

Kain simply just isn't able to.

Originally posted by Terryc250
NOTHING in the storyline suggests he obtained that optional spell, has he ever soul ripped anyone in the storyline? No, has he even mentioned its name in the storyline? No. Its just as optional and storyline canoned as Master Materia or KOTR is.

So? Theres dialogue for just about every optional item for any game, it does not mean every optional item is gained by the character in the actual plot.

I've said it before, throughout FF7 Cloud barely has any dialogue, its all OTHER characters talking to him, does that make every single materia uncanon? No.

Your basically trying to argue "If its not like LOK, its not canon".

And he is not a "shopkeeper" he is the elder of Kalm Village.

Spirit Death doesn't go into detail about how it was created either.. he just gives a quick description, like he does with any other spell.

There wasn't a single materia in FF7 that when it was obtained, Cloud shouts out a description, thats not how the style of game is in FF7, does that make every materia uncanon? No.

The only ones that are possibly uncanon are the [b]optional ones.

Thats the bottom line here.

Maybe if you would reply properly, instead of just writing paragrah after paragraphs assuming that i would know what you're replying to.

Oh right, he was too busy holding onto his chest after being slashed, anyway all Kain can do is push him or pull him anyway with TK.

If Kain had his spells, he would've just froze him or used another one of his almighty spells while Raziel was slashing at Kain and Kain was trying to reason with him, then neutralize him so he can reason with him.

No i'm not, i understand.

He has memories of the events, but what says he acquires the spells as well? But anyway it doesn't matter since he probably didn't even get the optional spells in the first place.

When you play BO2, you regain the memories of BO1 back in the story. Yet the BO2 Kain still wasn't able to use any of the optional spells.

But thats optional dialogue, so the answer is still moot.

Show me Kain ripping souls out from the underworld and ressurecting bodies please.

Either that, or he did it just like he did in the game, by firing an energy bolt at it.

The only canon dialogue is the storyline dialogue, all the optional dialogue is a "maybe"

KOTR, Master Materia are no different from Spirit Death.

So what does? Cloud? Again like i've said Cloud never mentions anything in the game, its all OTHER people talking to him. The party has NEVER gained a materia then out of the blue started describing it to Cloud.

Its all other characters talking to him.

Basically you might as well just say if its good for LOK its canon, if its good for FF7 its uncanon, because thats what your aiming at.

There is no damage factor.. theres no damage at all.. this isn't a gameplay battle, its in-world play, but not everything is accurate.

in Marvel Ultimate Alliance, theres a part where you can have Wolverine push blocks that were well over 10 tons, Wolverine cannot do that in the actual comics but in-world gameplay he can, in FF7 you have Cloud walking around and hes about the size of towns, you can have the reaver slash at a wall without it being even scratched, Cloud gets ran over by 60 ton bolders without even getting hurt.

Not everything in the in-world gameplay is accurate.

They're weak because they're not even a quarter of Sephiroths power, all of the remnants couldn't even beat Cloud, yet Sephiroth toying around and not using any of his powers was still enough to kill Cloud.

They're magic summons, and they're tougher then those little knights Kain fights.

00:08 seconds, they're not "casted" the magic happens by them using their mind and connecting with the Negative Lifestream.
YouTube video

Rofl show me Kain TK'ing blood cells ahahahaha, you get more and more funny with each post.

But Kain can't hold up 8 people, if Kain were to TK someone they can flail around as much as they want, but atleast Sephiroth was torturing them.

Holy was stated to beable to destroy everything on the planet, it is the antithesis of Meteor, and it disintegrated Meteor, Holy has more feats then Kain rofl.

Neither does an explosion, going by that logic an explosion should be easy to TK (which it isn't)

Holy is destructive energy that can travel continents in seconds, it would rip through anything trying to contain it unless whatever contains it is that powerful.

No he moved 4 meters AT MOST, thats if we assume kain is 6 foot which i doubt he is, i can honestly leap 3 meters in a split second.

Stop Holy with sheer willpower
Willed himself back to life a couple times
Took control over the source of power,energy,life,magic
Became the newest evolution of Jenova
Created a plague
Threatened to transform the entire planet into his vessel

What has Kain done? [/B]

hes mentioend it when he gains it...thats the mention "sigh"

That depends on the dialogue, if the dialogue makes it relvent with the story then it is gained in canon.

Yes it does make them uncanon, because there is nothing making them canon....

it doesnt matter, he is a shopkeeper class NPC, the sort of "ive got this, do you want it!" text. nothing he says makes Master materia part of the story.

Maybe if you read my posts carefully you would have some idea, it was pretty darn obvious.

Push him and pull? their two things he can do, he can also keep him stuck in TK shackles or hold them in the air like he did moebius, face it, TK could have done everything Kain required that your saying he could have done with spells, he could have easily incapacitated Raziel with TK, the developers didnt want him to, just like they dont want Kain blasting raziel to bits with spells either.

He never loses the spells, your not listening, in BO 2 that kain in that timeline is the only kain that loses his ability to use the spells, simple, the current Kain is not the same since he has lvied several timelines, including the one where he doesnt lose the spells.

And FYI he could use Mist from the beginning of the game....

its optional for the player, the player is irrelvent thus so is the option, Kains dialogue being there is whats important.

here: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/sr1/story.php

A millennium has passed since Lord Kain set his capital in the ruins of the Pillars of Nosgoth and began his conquest of the world. His first act was to recruit a cadre. Dipping into the underworld, Kain snared six souls and thus birthed his lieutenants of which I, Raziel, was one. We, in turn prowled the twilight of purgatory building six legions of vampires to pillage Nosgoth.

Your using gameplay again, an energy bolt would disintegrate a litle wooden leaver on a wall, since it does the same to monsters in the game, but as i said, your using gameplay, he could have done a number of things to get to the storyline bits we know happened, what the player does is irrelvent, saying "the player needed to use spell A to complete puzzle B" is nonsense.

Not really, ime aiming at you not constantly using gameplay and player notions to convey whats canon...

Theres balance for the game, thats all I need to say, theres balance, as soon as Cloud gets hit, balance is in effect, same with any character getting hit, Raziel however is not getting hit, the blocks he moves are all his own strength, no balance.

Show me Wolverine doing this please....also is Marvel ultimate alliance a canon game? Comics would overule the game...not to mention there are not showings of Raziel not being able to do these things in other fiction, the game is all we have to gauge raziels strength.

Kill cloud? you mean for Cloud to kill him, infact the Remnants overall survived until the end long after Sephiroth was defeated.

How do yuo know their tougher? what have those shadow things done? I thot even Tifa was able to punch one over while protecting someone.

Can you show me what offically states the magic is done through their minds connecting with the Neg lifestream?

You couldnt get more funny, as soon as you say that its obvious youve not played a single LOK game, since he does it as a way of feeding in every game.....EVERY, game....as anyone who has played it in this forum can tell you..

YouTube video

Throughout this video you can see it, especially at the beginning.

"hahahaha" your so funny Terry you dont know jack about LOK amongst your sad bias...

At least? as i said, Sephrioths targets have their arms all over the place as well, only diffrence is Kain has shown he can TK small objects as well like weapons.

What Holy can do once it explodes on its target is irrelvent.

But Holy is not an explosion, its a ball then it explodes when it hits the target.

Half of those are not even fears, threaten the planet lmao? thats a feat is it...like most of your arguments, this all falls short..

Ive already listed what Kain has done and its a bigger and more impressive list even if we do include the laughalbe statements like the one above which isnt a feat.

Originally posted by Terryc250
-Cont.

Its not linked in the storyline BT, thats why he hasn't ever done it in the story.

Kain only says he has them IF he gains it, but there sno proof that he does gain it, just like any of the optional materia/items.

But still in the BO2 "alternate timeline" when Kain gains back his memories in the "alternate timeline" he still isn't able to use any of the optional spells.

So then show me.

Sephiroth doesn't use his powers, thats fact, hes toying around, Kain isn't

Kain simply just isn't able to.

It is linked, thats why he says "the Necromancer" which is mortanious, as soon as he says that hes linking it in with the main unvierse, not some gameplay.

The option as ive said 1001 times is a player decision which is uncanon, Players decisions are not the same as Kains and furthermore Kanis decision is obvious because he has dialogue for lal the spells, take away the gameplay and youll be taking away the option, player notion and behavior etc etc and be left with Kains dialogue.

As I said, technically the current Kain doesnt actually lose any spells, the onyl kain that does is BO 2 kain which is in an alternate timeline, Kain has lived through both timelines.

okie I will show you, like ive done 1000 times over.

YouTube video

The power he uses throughout and at the end of that video is similiar to both lightning or Spirit death, more like spirit death although Spirit death is long ranged, the main goal of this video is to show Kain does cast spells and in the areas where he does, his other spells would not be required since as you see, its more than enough for Raziel....why need anything else? he doesnt...

Just isnt able to what? he doesnt need to use any other spells, nothing states in canon he isnt able to either, just your sad assumption, there is not a single moment where one of his spells would be required.

Originally posted by Burning thought
[B]hes mentioend it when he gains it...thats the mention "sigh"

That depends on the dialogue, if the dialogue makes it relvent with the story then it is gained in canon.

Yes it does make them uncanon, because there is nothing making them canon....

it doesnt matter, he is a shopkeeper class NPC, the sort of "ive got this, do you want it!" text. nothing he says makes Master materia part of the story.

Maybe if you read my posts carefully you would have some idea, it was pretty darn obvious.

Push him and pull? their two things he can do, he can also keep him stuck in TK shackles or hold them in the air like he did moebius, face it, TK could have done everything Kain required that your saying he could have done with spells, he could have easily incapacitated Raziel with TK, the developers didnt want him to, just like they dont want Kain blasting raziel to bits with spells either.

He never loses the spells, your not listening, in BO 2 that kain in that timeline is the only kain that loses his ability to use the spells, simple, the current Kain is not the same since he has lvied several timelines, including the one where he doesnt lose the spells.

And FYI he could use Mist from the beginning of the game....

its optional for the player, the player is irrelvent thus so is the option, Kains dialogue being there is whats important.

here: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/sr1/story.php

Your using gameplay again, an energy bolt would disintegrate a litle wooden leaver on a wall, since it does the same to monsters in the game, but as i said, your using gameplay, he could have done a number of things to get to the storyline bits we know happened, what the player does is irrelvent, saying "the player needed to use spell A to complete puzzle B" is nonsense.

Not really, ime aiming at you not constantly using gameplay and player notions to convey whats canon...

Theres balance for the game, thats all I need to say, theres balance, as soon as Cloud gets hit, balance is in effect, same with any character getting hit, Raziel however is not getting hit, the blocks he moves are all his own strength, no balance.

Show me Wolverine doing this please....also is Marvel ultimate alliance a canon game? Comics would overule the game...not to mention there are not showings of Raziel not being able to do these things in other fiction, the game is all we have to gauge raziels strength.

Kill cloud? you mean for Cloud to kill him, infact the Remnants overall survived until the end long after Sephiroth was defeated.

How do yuo know their tougher? what have those shadow things done? I thot even Tifa was able to punch one over while protecting someone.

Can you show me what offically states the magic is done through their minds connecting with the Neg lifestream?

You couldnt get more funny, as soon as you say that its obvious youve not played a single LOK game, since he does it as a way of feeding in every game.....EVERY, game....as anyone who has played it in this forum can tell you..

YouTube video

Throughout this video you can see it, especially at the beginning.

"hahahaha" your so funny Terry you dont know jack about LOK amongst your sad bias...

At least? as i said, Sephrioths targets have their arms all over the place as well, only diffrence is Kain has shown he can TK small objects as well like weapons.

What Holy can do once it explodes on its target is irrelvent.

But Holy is not an explosion, its a ball then it explodes when it hits the target.

Half of those are not even fears, threaten the planet lmao? thats a feat is it...like most of your arguments, this all falls short..

Ive already listed what Kain has done and its a bigger and more impressive list even if we do include the laughalbe statements like the one above which isnt a feat.

It is linked, thats why he says "the Necromancer" which is mortanious, as soon as he says that hes linking it in with the main unvierse, not some gameplay.

The option as ive said 1001 times is a player decision which is uncanon, Players decisions are not the same as Kains and furthermore Kanis decision is obvious because he has dialogue for lal the spells, take away the gameplay and youll be taking away the option, player notion and behavior etc etc and be left with Kains dialogue.

As I said, technically the current Kain doesnt actually lose any spells, the onyl kain that does is BO 2 kain which is in an alternate timeline, Kain has lived through both timelines.

okie I will show you, like ive done 1000 times over.

YouTube video

The power he uses throughout and at the end of that video is similiar to both lightning or Spirit death, more like spirit death although Spirit death is long ranged, the main goal of this video is to show Kain does cast spells and in the areas where he does, his other spells would not be required since as you see, its more than enough for Raziel....why need anything else? he doesnt...

Just isnt able to what? he doesnt need to use any other spells, nothing states in canon he isnt able to either, just your sad assumption, there is not a single moment where one of his spells would be required.

Alright since its "obvious" i'll start replying like you as well.

But nothing suggests that he GAINS the optional spell, its a big "IF" if he gains it, that would be what he would say.

Just like if Cloud did get master materia, that would be what the Kalm elder says.

But in the actual story, he doesn't say that, because Cloud doesn't gain that optional spell.

What do you mean "making them in canon"? All materia is made the same way.

Kain can't blast Raziel to bits rofl, if he obviously can't TK Raziel for long, he would escape it. He was trying to reason with him, and if he actually had the spells he could've neutralized him.

Yes but that SAME KAIN gains back his memories in BO2 OF BO1, and still that SAME KAIN still couldn't use any of the BO1 optional spells.

No its optional spell period. Its not mandatory for Kain, and nothing suggests he actually gained it, its basically just a bonus spell.

No your amping up Kains power again, energy bolt won't disitegrate anything, if the character needed the item/spell to accomplish something, chances are its likely similar to what happened in the actual story.

So then Kain cannot cut through a wall? Kain cannot knock over a pole? I've given you examples, and evidence.

Not everything in-world gameplay is accurate.

You CANNOT use in-world gameplay to gauge a characters strength rofl, its just as ridiculous as saying Cloud is the size of towns.

He could've killed Cloud if he wanted to, use your brain, he had Cloud defenseless up against the wall and could've stabbed him anywhere, he accomplished that with little effort.

Tifa didn't punch through any one of them, they're tougher because theyre far faster, far more agile, and pick people up and maul through them like ragdolls

They don't even need to make a gesture and they summon them, how else would they use its magic? By wiggling their toes?

ROFL thats TK'ing BLOOD, like TK'ing liquid, he can't split jenova cells rofl, he wouldn't even beable to take Clouds J-cells out of his body, Sephiroth is a entirely different story since hes purely made up of jenova cells.

Kain has never held a person solid, hell he's never even held more then one object at once, sorry BT, but Sephroths TK is FAAAR superior then Kains, anyone can tell you that.

Wtf? Holy isn't a bomb that needs to hit something for a spark to ignite HAHA, its not a "ball" lol, its a WAVE of energy. You're failing miserably BT.

Kain has done jack, all he's done is kill some people lol.

And kalm elder talks about Meteor, and talks about Ultimate Weapon, thats linking with the "universe" does that make it any different? No.

And as i've said before, if its optional it means its possible the character doesn't obtain the OPTIONAL item/magic/equipment in the actual storyline, comprehend it.

I've given you examples and evidence, so just concede and stop repeating that same argument.

Rofl how is that "spirit death"? Its just lightning, its not ripping souls or doing anything of that sort.

So there you have it, zero proof of Kain obtaining Spirit Death in the actual canon storyline.