Pyron Vs God kratos, kain , Sparda

Originally posted by Terryc250
If the player can go through the story without getting the spell so can Kain, it has NOTHING to do with gameplay, its the story, nothing in the story suggests that the spell is needed, its like a bonus spell.

The story suggests he doesn't get it, think about it, why hasn't Kain soul ripped anyone? Why hasn't he ever spoke of it ever in milleniums? Why isn't he able to use it in any game after BO1?

All those are facts that you cannot deny.

Show me Kain lifting 40 tons please.

Thats if they stand there and let him stick it into them, if Kain could really defeat 1000, why didn't the developers make it like Dynasty Warriors where they maul through hundreds in seconds. I don't buy it BT, unless you actually show me some evidence.

Sephiroth was toying around, and didn't have his guard up, wasn't the same scenario with Kain who was cautious the whole time.

Did I say he was going to kill Moebius? No.

Materia's naturally glow, they're just hardened Mako.
watch at 5:00
YouTube video

They were showing because Loz' and Yazoo's bodies were fading like Kadaj's did.

We don't know what materia's Cloud had in that chest.

It would be a bonus spell until kain adds it with his Dialogue, if it simply said "spell gained" while playing "da da da darrr" with little stars floating around kain, then it would be a comepltly gameplay spell, all optional, but it doesnt, the option is player related, lets check on what we agree to:

PLayers do not determine canon correct?

Gameplay is not canon correct?

so surely an option that is purely seen only in gameplay and is completly controlled bvy the player within by logic cannot help your argument at all.

Kain does it in Defiance, but here ive proven strength levels by this before now:

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thing is Raziel is indeed incredibly strong, most people dont appreciate it either, see this:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.razorapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/vanderbilt-rock-costume-raphael.jpg&imgrefurl=http://razorapple.com/2006/10/30/costuming-a-10-ton-rock-for-halloween/&h=333&w=500&sz=28&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=SJpY6XgyYN0JnM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwhat%2Bcan%2Brock%2Bdress%2Bup%2Bas%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den

now this Rock weighs 10 tons, now look at this:

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Raziel moves this large slab which is the same size in comparison to that 10 ton rock, furthermore its actually taller, considering the fact that Raziel has to be around 6 ft and that women is likely not that tall, this rock is still above raziels head by far more than the 10 ton rock in that image is above the women, furthermore the rock is chissled square, its not just a lump of shapepless rock, its got more on it because its got edges and is square, instead of a lump, which makes it heavier. Not only does he push it around but he throws it up a height about a foot taller than him perhaps more several times.

but thats only about perhaps 15-20 tones ive just shown you, later on he lifts around 30/40 tons when he puts one on top of the other! and lifts it with similiar ease around.

now:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b95x0FwP8Lw&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b95x0FwP8Lw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Raziel hits Kain with many hits, hes not holding back at all from long range, meaing his impact will be heavier than when he hits the rock, then you have to take into consideration his claws are razor sharp, enough so to slash into stone with fair ease thats for sure, all vampire claws in Nosgoth are blade sharp, they can use their claws instead of swords if they wish so. Kain ofc takes it with ease, is not even scratched and then throws down raziels arm and TK blasts him across the area, it may even be more than 40 tons, since those blocks are of more chissled shape, then youve got the fact kain also gets kicked, kicks have even more strength than arms usually. Thats a 35-50 tonner laying into Kain with claws that can pierce solid smooth stone and doesnt even make a scratch, Kain is barely phased, just moved back by the force.

Just let him? what choice do they have, hes far faster than any of them by far, and regarldess of all the strength stuff abive he has shown his sword can slice into rock point first with ease, his strength is not in question here since if he did that, he would slasughter a sarafan in one stroke like in real life , ithink your just thinking on gameplay again, Sarafan take about 5-10 hits? yeh, thats not canon though....

you dont buy kain defeating more than 10 Sarafan lmao.....thats like me not buying Sephiroth couldnt defeat 5 shinra soldiers....petty, their weak as hell.

Then what are you saying he could do to Moebius? as i said, nearly all his powers kill with a shot, those that dont would not benefit Kain, all he wanted was information, in the end I can still claim PIS since technically it was PIS since earlier Kain quckly and easily disarms and defeats moebius.

I know what they look like but they dont look like that inside the body until they start glowing when in use...thus the "charge up" effect.

no we dont, but the chances 10 of them are all Firaga spells is near impossible if not completly impossible and illogical.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It would be a bonus spell until kain adds it with his Dialogue, if it simply said "spell gained" while playing "da da da darrr" with little stars floating around kain, then it would be a comepltly gameplay spell, all optional, but it doesnt, the option is player related, lets check on what we agree to:

PLayers do not determine canon correct?

Gameplay is not canon correct?

so surely an option that is purely seen only in [b]gameplay and is completly controlled bvy the player within by logic cannot help your argument at all.

But you keep avoiding this fact here, its OPTIONAL dialogue, its not the storyline dialogue, its just dialogue you get IF the spell is obtained.

The story determines canon, the players play through the story.

Playing through the STORY, a spell is possibly obtained or possibly not obtained, we'll never know if it was obtained in the actual story or not.

But again everything suggests that it wasn't obtained in the actual story.

Kain does it in Defiance, but here ive proven strength levels by this before now:

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thing is Raziel is indeed incredibly strong, most people dont appreciate it either, see this:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.razorapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/vanderbilt-rock-costume-raphael.jpg&imgrefurl=http://razorapple.com/2006/10/30/costuming-a-10-ton-rock-for-halloween/&h=333&w=500&sz=28&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=SJpY6XgyYN0JnM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwhat%2Bcan%2Brock%2Bdress%2Bup%2Bas%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den

now this Rock weighs 10 tons, now look at this:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VWFp_M6BHpc&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VWFp_M6BHpc&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Raziel moves this large slab which is the same size in comparison to that 10 ton rock, furthermore its actually taller, considering the fact that Raziel has to be around 6 ft and that women is likely not that tall, this rock is still above raziels head by far more than the 10 ton rock in that image is above the women, furthermore the rock is chissled square, its not just a lump of shapepless rock, its got more on it because its got edges and is square, instead of a lump, which makes it heavier. Not only does he push it around but he throws it up a height about a foot taller than him perhaps more several times.

but thats only about perhaps 15-20 tones ive just shown you, later on he lifts around 30/40 tons when he puts one on top of the other! and lifts it with similiar ease around.

now:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b95x0FwP8Lw&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b95x0FwP8Lw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Raziel hits Kain with many hits, hes not holding back at all from long range, meaing his impact will be heavier than when he hits the rock, then you have to take into consideration his claws are razor sharp, enough so to slash into stone with fair ease thats for sure, all vampire claws in Nosgoth are blade sharp, they can use their claws instead of swords if they wish so. Kain ofc takes it with ease, is not even scratched and then throws down raziels arm and TK blasts him across the area, it may even be more than 40 tons, since those blocks are of more chissled shape, then youve got the fact kain also gets kicked, kicks have even more strength than arms usually. Thats a 35-50 tonner laying into Kain with claws that can pierce solid smooth stone and doesnt even make a scratch, Kain is barely phased, just moved back by the force.

And i've shown you how much of a failure that is, its no different from Cloud getting ran over by a 100ton boulder in game.

Either Kain you show me Kain lifting 40 tons+ or not, don't give me all that nonsense.

[quote]
Just let him? what choice do they have, hes far faster than any of them by far, and regarldess of all the strength stuff abive he has shown his sword can slice into rock point first with ease, his strength is not in question here since if he did that, he would slasughter a sarafan in one stroke like in real life , ithink your just thinking on gameplay again, Sarafan take about 5-10 hits? yeh, thats not canon though....

you dont buy kain defeating more than 10 Sarafan lmao.....thats like me not buying Sephiroth couldnt defeat 5 shinra soldiers....petty, their weak as hell.

Then what are you saying he could do to Moebius? as i said, nearly all his powers kill with a shot, those that dont would not benefit Kain, all he wanted was information, in the end I can still claim PIS since technically it was PIS since earlier Kain quckly and easily disarms and defeats moebius.

I know what they look like but they dont look like that inside the body until they start glowing when in use...thus the "charge up" effect.

no we dont, but the chances 10 of them are all Firaga spells is near impossible if not completly impossible and illogical.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But you keep avoiding this fact here, its OPTIONAL dialogue, its not the storyline dialogue, its just dialogue you get IF the spell is obtained.

The story determines canon, the players play through the story.

Playing through the STORY, a spell is possibly obtained or possibly not obtained, we'll never know if it was obtained in the actual story or not.

But again everything suggests that it wasn't obtained in the actual story.

And i've shown you how much of a failure that is, its no different from Cloud getting ran over by a 100ton boulder in game.

Either Kain you show me Kain lifting 40 tons+ or not, don't give me all that nonsense.

Far faster then one of them maybe, but altogether they'd probably give him trouble, lol Sephiroth annihilated the entire Shinra building in about 10 minutes, Kain has zero feats to prove he can take on 10 sarafan soldiers with ease.

Not all of his spells kill, what about.. stun? Wouldn't that benefit him?

The chargeup effect is the smoke around their arm, it doesn't neccesarily mean they're using all 10 of them, by "firaga" do you mean "fire"? Why can't they be fire spells? How is that "near impossible"? Fire element materias are quite common.

ime not avoiding it, the fact is that the optional part is gameplay, nothing to do with storyline, kains voice is to do with the universe, the optional part is player controlled.

playing is the key term, their players, thats not canon.

getting hit is diffrent completly because imediatle that happens the gameplay maths logic comes into play which determines health of Cloud and life lost.

How would they give him trouble? he instantly restores his energy from draining ones blood abnd his regen factor is insane and the guy can survive without vital organs too, they would have to literally rip him to pieces which is impossible since Raziel who can slice into rock with ease and with all the strength ive shown above cannot even penetrate those fools will not. Kain is far too fast.

Blow up the shinra building but not fight shinra soldiers?

Stun turns the target catonic with a brain jolt, thus, retarded, if he needs answers he wouldnt be able to talk to a retarded moebius would he.

Because the chances of them taking 10 fire spells, likely not even 10 excist in knowledge, and it would not be logical for them to take only fire powers, since CLoud would have more than just fire spells in his box.

Originally posted by Burning thought
ime not avoiding it, the fact is that the optional part is gameplay, nothing to do with storyline, kains voice is to do with the universe, the optional part is player controlled.

[b]playing is the key term, their players, thats not canon.

Its something Kain would say IF he obtained the spell, but nothing suggests that he did get it.

You're playing as Kain, you go through the same story Kain goes through, however the same choices the player had, Kain had as well, but what the player chose to do is NOT canon, but theres no definate answer to what Kain the character chose either, thats why we use the sequals to suggest what he did choose to do.

getting hit is diffrent completly because imediatle that happens the gameplay maths logic comes into play which determines health of Cloud and life lost.

How would they give him trouble? he instantly restores his energy from draining ones blood abnd his regen factor is insane and the guy can survive without vital organs too, they would have to literally rip him to pieces which is impossible since Raziel who can slice into rock with ease and with all the strength ive shown above cannot even penetrate those fools will not. Kain is far too fast.

Stun turns the target catonic with a brain jolt, thus, retarded, if he needs answers he wouldnt be able to talk to a retarded moebius would he.

Because the chances of them taking 10 fire spells, likely not even 10 excist in knowledge, and it would not be logical for them to take only fire powers, since CLoud would have more than just fire spells in his box.

And Cloud having 10 fire spells is totally possible, but its not relevent.

Originally posted by Terryc250
So you're saying every item/materia in FF7 is actually acquired by Cloud? And the fact that they're optional is just "gameplay" ? No thats wrong, not all of the optional item/spells are gained by the actual character, even if they have dialogue its just optional dialogue.

Its something Kain would say IF he obtained the spell, but nothing suggests that he did get it.

You're playing as Kain, you go through the same story Kain goes through, however the same choices the player had, Kain had as well, but what the player chose to do is NOT canon, but theres no definate answer to what Kain the character chose either, thats why we use the sequals to suggest what he did choose to do.

No, thats only if its in a gameplay battle, Cloud getting ran over by that huge bolder is outside of gameplay battle just as Raziel lifting that block is, if Raziel lifts it in a cinematic then you can use it as a feat, however, you can't use something that is like gameplay, for example you can't leave your game on while having Raziel holding the block and claim "Raziel lifted it for 10 hours straight" everything in player controlled gameplay is NOT accurate, like Cloud getting ran over by that huge bolder, or Kain slicing a wall with the reaver and the wall remaining undented.

He could survive, but he won't be fighting without his organs, when Raziel took out his heart he was KO'd for a long time, stabbing a rock isn't a feat, stop trying to make it into one.
[qute]
Blow up the shinra building but not fight shinra soldiers?

And Cloud having 10 fire spells is totally possible, but its not relevent. [/QUOTE]

no because CLoud has no canon Dialogue.

His voice pretty much telling us himself he gained it should be proof enough he did unless youve got proof kains a big liar.

The players option is uncanon, I cant belive your assuming that the Player is the same as if it was Kain going through it? so you think every being on the Earth has Kains personality as they play the game? what nonsense, its nothing of the sort.

Its all gameplay...Players doing what you described is playe controlled, however the size of the blocks, teh speed Raziel pushes and pulls them, moves them around is all preset by the game and thus not player controlled. What do you mean a long time? he was Kod for perhaps a few minutes if that, perhaps less so otherwise he would have been ripped to pieces by the demons if he was in there for any longer.

What will shooting him with a bolt do? nonsense.....that will likeyl kill moebius as well.

They were all glowing thus being used.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no because CLoud has no canon Dialogue.

His voice pretty much telling us himself he gained it should be proof enough he did unless youve got proof kains a big liar.

The players option is uncanon, I cant belive your assuming that the Player is the same as if it was Kain going through it? so you think every being on the Earth has Kains personality as they play the game? what nonsense, its nothing of the sort.

Its all gameplay...Players doing what you described is playe controlled, however the size of the blocks, teh speed Raziel pushes and pulls them, moves them around is all preset by the game and thus not player controlled. What do you mean a long time? he was Kod for perhaps a few minutes if that, perhaps less so otherwise he would have been ripped to pieces by the demons if he was in there for any longer.

What will shooting him with a bolt do? nonsense.....that will likeyl kill moebius as well.

They were all glowing thus being used.

It could be pitch black and materia will glow like a flashlight.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Cloud barely has any dialogue in the entire game, its mostly all just other people talking to him.

But you only hear the voice IF the spell is gained, nothing suggests that the spell is ever gained.

Did i say that? No, i said if the player has a decision whther to do something or not, SO DOES KAIN, kain is not FORCED to go and obtain the spell.

What do you mean its not player controlled? Pushing the blocks is player controlled, you can push the blocks by using the gamepad, but not everything is accurate in gameplay, unless you think walls are undented by getting slashed with the reaver 500 times Raziel can lift up big blocks, Cloud can get run over by 60 ton rocks and be unharmed, but i'm guessing you'll just cherry pick all the good things about the inaccurate gameplay and call them canon right? Then all the rest are just "gameplay".

It'll leave Moebius injured and unarmed, but of course to you energy bolt will probably killing everything, Kain is using it afterall.

Read closely, - Materia Naturally Glows -

It could be pitch black and materia will glow like a flashlight.

hm indeed.

I know I only hear it but what the player hears is irrelvent as long as it excists, since we know the canon speech excists and its Kain who says it its irrelvent whether a player decides to gain it or not since players dont make the canon.

Hes not forced, nobody in games are forced to do anything....they just do something, and Kain tells us he gains the spell simple.

No you can chosoe to push the blocks but the speed of the blocks of raziel pushing them is not player controlled, there are a lot of static things the playes cannot control. No because weve seen and can logically understand how a sword could cause marks, thats endgine/graphical limitations however the blocks are supposed ot be this way, the develpors have not shipped a bugged game where the blocks are too big for the character, they choose the level design, the size of the blocks etc etc.

Why to me? energy bolt is a simple and fairly weak spell but if youve played the game it can explode some beings like normal humans, as Kain says "its a messy spell" so it could cause more than just a disarm to moebius, dont forget he is old as well....a bolt into the chest or arm could greatly damage the guy, but as Kain says later, he needs moebius, he could not risk killing or harming him too badly and who are you to judge Kains motives?

yeh but it doesnt glow like that when inside somene unelss their using it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I know I only hear it but what the player hears is irrelvent as long as it excists, since we know the canon speech excists and its Kain who says it its irrelvent whether a player decides to gain it or not since players dont make the canon.

But we don't exactly know what paths he chooses going through the story.

Hes not forced, nobody in games are forced to do anything....they just do something, and Kain tells us he gains the spell simple.

No you can chosoe to push the blocks but the speed of the blocks of raziel pushing them is not player controlled, there are a lot of static things the playes cannot control. No because weve seen and can logically understand how a sword could cause marks, thats endgine/graphical limitations however the blocks are supposed ot be this way, the develpors have not shipped a bugged game where the blocks are too big for the character, they choose the level design, the size of the blocks etc etc.

Not everything in gameplay is accurate, if he did it in a cinematic it would actually mean something.

Why to me? energy bolt is a simple and fairly weak spell but if youve played the game it can explode some beings like normal humans, as Kain says "its a messy spell" so it could cause more than just a disarm to moebius, dont forget he is old as well....a bolt into the chest or arm could greatly damage the guy, but as Kain says later, he needs moebius, he could not risk killing or harming him too badly and who are you to judge Kains motives?

I'm just saying if he truely has all these spells, why doesn't he use them?

yeh but it doesnt glow like that when inside somene unelss their using it.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But it exists as an "if", if the spell is obtained it Kain WOULD say that description.

But we don't exactly know what paths he chooses going through the story.

He tells us he gains it IF he gains it, if he doesn't then he doesn't.

Its still gameplay, its like saying the developers put in that size of bolder because Cloud can survive being ran over by a 60 ton bolder.

Not everything in gameplay is accurate, if he did it in a cinematic it would actually mean something.

Alright then why doesn't he shoot an "incapacitate" at him so he can gain back his composure and then ask Moebius the questions he wants?

I'm just saying if he truely has all these spells, why doesn't he use them?

Its glowing because their bodies were fading away, just like Kadaj's body faded away.

no because you take away the "if" in this debate because the "if" is a player decision which is not canon, and so irrelvent.

We do because he says he gains the spell, as I said before if we take away the optonal player gameplay crap and leave just the in-universe things we get Kain claiming he has gianed the spell.

Show me cloud getting hit by the boulder, the very fact he is hit means the gmaeplay statistics would take into account his health bar.

Why would a cinematic change it? you see your argument earlier was that Cinematics always happen, well the blocks always happen, you canot get to another area, or continue with the story without moving those blocks...teir the same as a cinematic, and just as static in which the player cnnot determine their size/volume etc nor the speed Raziel manipulates them. Players use Kratos' gameplay items he picks up as gauges for his strength mostly, half of the cinematics dont show Kratos showing nearly half as many strength feats as his gameplay picking up does.

PIS, obviously the Developers want the player to see moebius' staff since its relevent later on, since as I said, later on Kain doesnt use or even need a spell, his TK can manipulate items and moebius with ease.

because half of them are killers, most of them are unessary as well, as I said before lets pretend the developers were out of this and it was just Kain if he was real and the developers couldnt just choose what he uses and how, Kain still wouldnt want to use his powers becuase theres no point ,he tosses Sarafan around like flies with ease, he doesnt need to use spells against perhaps anyone in the entire Defiance storyline.

But that was after he was killed at the end your talking about?

conclusion - not cannon. i cant beleive ur still at it terry, just leave the hopeless. kain dies a horrible death, now lets actually have sumthing on topic for a change.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no because you take away the "if" in this debate because the "if" is a player decision which is not canon, and so irrelvent.

That means KAIN the character also has the choice in the story, he is not forced to gain the spell, its a big "IF", if the character actually gained the spell or not.

Nothing suggests that Kain actually gained the spell in the canon story plot, just as nothing suggests Cloud gained KOTR or Master Materia, because Cloud or anyone else uses it in AC

And Kain never talks about it, or uses it in the next 4 sequals of LOK.

We do because he says he gains the spell, as I said before if we take away the optonal player gameplay crap and leave just the in-universe things we get Kain claiming he has gianed the spell.

If we used the entire dialogue in FF7 all the optional ones as well, that would mean Cloud and party gained every single item, materia, in the FF7 world, but did they in the canon plot? No.

Show me cloud getting hit by the boulder, the very fact he is hit means the gmaeplay statistics would take into account his health bar.

Why would a cinematic change it? you see your argument earlier was that Cinematics always happen, well the blocks always happen, you canot get to another area, or continue with the story without moving those blocks...teir the same as a cinematic, and just as static in which the player cnnot determine their size/volume etc nor the speed Raziel manipulates them. Players use Kratos' gameplay items he picks up as gauges for his strength mostly, half of the cinematics dont show Kratos showing nearly half as many strength feats as his gameplay picking up does.

Does that mean Cloud is the size of towns? Because in the ingame world he is.

PIS, obviously the Developers want the player to see moebius' staff since its relevent later on, since as I said, later on Kain doesnt use or even need a spell, his TK can manipulate items and moebius with ease.

because half of them are killers, most of them are unessary as well, as I said before lets pretend the developers were out of this and it was just Kain if he was real and the developers couldnt just choose what he uses and how, Kain still wouldnt want to use his powers becuase theres no point ,he tosses Sarafan around like flies with ease, he doesnt need to use spells against perhaps anyone in the entire Defiance storyline.

But that was after he was killed at the end your talking about?

Originally posted by Terryc250
I've said this before over and over, if in the story, the player who plays as Kain gets a decision whether or not to obtain the spell or not (just as Cloud has the choice whether or not to obtain Knights of the round, Master Materia, or any other optional spell *yes they all have dialogue*)

That means KAIN the character also has the choice in the story, he is not forced to gain the spell, its a big "IF", if the character actually gained the spell or not.

Nothing suggests that Kain actually gained the spell in the canon story plot, just as nothing suggests Cloud gained KOTR or Master Materia, because Cloud or anyone else uses it in AC

And Kain never talks about it, or uses it in the next 4 sequals of LOK.

He only gives a description IF the spell is gained, thats right, the big "IF" nothing suggests he actually gained it, it doesn't matter if theres dialogue or not its the fact that its optional dialogue, just because theres optional dialogue does NOT mean it actually happened in the canon plot, think about it.

If we used the entire dialogue in FF7 all the optional ones as well, that would mean Cloud and party gained every single item, materia, in the FF7 world, but did they in the canon plot? No.

No it doesn't because it wasn't in a battle, it was in the ingame world, and since you think its the same as cinematic, that means he can survive that, since its no different then cinematic
at 9:20
YouTube video

Because everything in the ingame gameplay world isn't totally accurate, whereas in a cinematic the developers actually make the video so that it is accurate, like having two characters battle in a cinematic is actually how it would look if they battled instead of how it would be in gameplay, or if it showed Kain slashing at a wall in a cinematic you think the wall would remain undented? No.

Does that mean Cloud is the size of towns? Because in the ingame world he is.

Right.. Kain has every spell even the optional ones but he just chooses not to use it.

Show me Kain tossing around sarafan knights with ease, or any LOK character tossing sarafan knights with ease, Kain just "not using his spells" is just your excuse for Kain not having them, why didn't he use some spells against Raziel instead of let him get his heart ripped out? A nice old incapacitate or any other spell would've been helpful

No, DURING, the rain (aeris' limit break) was destroying all the Jenova cells, and their bodies were fading away, like Kadaj's, at that same time Yazoo and Loz' bodies were fading as well, thus the materia's were showing.

And as ive said countless times the Player does not determine canon of the game, the games in-universe content does, thus Kain speech is in-unvierse since its himself saying he gains the spell, thus he has the spell.

The next 4? 2 of them you barely even see Kain, and the second one, Blood omen 2 he had forgotten them.

No because your "if" comes from a players gameplay choice, all uncanon nonsense, but you usualyl use that "sigh". Kains speech is still there and what he says is more truthful than your gameplay usage. Your entire argument is based around a player apprently deciding whats canon lol

Youve not shown me a singel dialogue even comparable to Kains for FF materia. Their prob all gamepaly terms from my own FF10 experiance.

First thats as I said, a character getting hit which accumulates a mathmatical gameplay formulae, HP-100, boulder hits him, HP-70 kind of thing, only I didnt see a boulder hit him?

thats not the game world though, thats a players interface view so he can interact with the game, not to mention weve seen Clouds size in canon aynway.

Perhaps the weakest Kain holding a Sarafan knight with one hand by the throat, their nothing.

YouTube video

throughout that video youll also see him bashing Sarafan like their nothing

lol, if he doesnt use them, he doesnt use them, nothing states he doesnt have them so he cannot lose them since gaiing them in BO 1, the developers just chose not to put them in the game, simple.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And as ive said countless times the Player does not determine canon of the game, the games in-universe content does, thus Kain speech is in-unvierse since its himself saying he gains the spell, thus he has the spell.

In the STORY, Kain most likely does NOT obtain the optional spell, why else doesn't he "soul rip" anyone in the entire storyline? Why else doesn't he ever mention this "optional spell" ever, in the next 4 sequals?

The next 4? 2 of them you barely even see Kain, and the second one, Blood omen 2 he had forgotten them.

Well since he forgets them, whats to say he re-acquires them, let alone even got them in the first place? That basically proves he doesn't have them.

No because your "if" comes from a players gameplay choice, all uncanon nonsense, but you usualyl use that "sigh". Kains speech is still there and what he says is more truthful than your gameplay usage. Your entire argument is based around a player apprently deciding whats canon lol

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.

Youve not shown me a singel dialogue even comparable to Kains for FF materia. Their prob all gamepaly terms from my own FF10 experiance.

First thats as I said, a character getting hit which accumulates a mathmatical gameplay formulae, HP-100, boulder hits him, HP-70 kind of thing, only I didnt see a boulder hit him?

thats not the game world though, thats a players interface view so he can interact with the game, not to mention weve seen Clouds size in canon aynway.

Perhaps the weakest Kain holding a Sarafan knight with one hand by the throat, their nothing.

YouTube video

throughout that video youll also see him bashing Sarafan like their nothing

In the video you don't even see Kain fighting more then 4 at once, and even then it takes him awhile to defeat them unless he uses his reaver is charged and uses its powers, or unless he pushes them off a building.

I mean really, they're just regular humans wearing armor.. any higher tier character, DS, Sephiroth, Dante, would kill them in split seconds.

lol, if he doesnt use them, he doesnt use them, nothing states he doesnt have them so he cannot lose them since gaiing them in BO 1, the developers just chose not to put them in the game, simple. [/B]

He even lost his memory, and only regained memory of what happened, nothing suggests he re-acquired all his spells, there were times where he should've used his spells (if he actually had them) like when he was going to get owned by Raziel or against Raziel.

^BT knows quite well what your talking about and what ur argument is. no use ecplaining it repeatedly, he just CHOOSES to play with you and bring up fallacies to give hie character a win.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But listen, [b]Kain only says that description IF the optional spell is obtained <-- nothing suggests he obtains that spell in the actual canon story.

In the STORY, Kain most likely does NOT obtain the optional spell, why else doesn't he "soul rip" anyone in the entire storyline? Why else doesn't he ever mention this "optional spell" ever, in the next 4 sequals?

My point still stands, its never mentioned, or used.

Well since he forgets them, whats to say he re-acquires them, let alone even got them in the first place? That basically proves he doesn't have them.

God damn, are you having trouble reading? I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.

I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).

I couldn't find a video where the boulder hits Cloud, but its not gameplay its in-world, when you get hit by the boulder it just drags the character back, you don't lose HP or anything, the only time you lose HP is in a gameplay battle.

Which is proof that not everything in the gameplay in-world is accurate.

.. Is that supposed to be impressive? Because its not, its not even a feat. Captain America or Wolverine can do it, its not a feat for someone who supposedly can take out Planet Busters and crap rofl.

In the video you don't even see Kain fighting more then 4 at once, and even then it takes him awhile to defeat them unless he uses his reaver is charged and uses its powers, or unless he pushes them off a building.

I mean really, they're just regular humans wearing armor.. any higher tier character, DS, Sephiroth, Dante, would kill them in split seconds.

Uhh.. nothing states he even gained some of them in the actual canon story.

He even lost his memory, and only regained memory of what happened, nothing suggests he re-acquired all his spells, there were times where he should've used his spells (if he actually had them) like when he was going to get owned by Raziel or against Raziel. [/B]

He suggests it, he>you, that option is a player decision, which is not canon.

The same reason Sephiroth doesnt cast many powers in storyline, he hardly does anything but use his sword, then his fans say "zomg hez only toying with thems!!!" diffrence being Kain is fighting saps who couldnt do anything to him, Sephiroth fights people who defeat him outright.

No you see I thought you would fall in that pitfall, Blood omen 2 Kain is a off-shoot from a time mainpulation, the current and latest Kain has lived through both realities, gaining the spells in the BO 2 before BO 2 was made possible.

yeh youve said a lot of things, does that make them true? bs, your desperatley likening the Player to Kain? your saying the Player is now the embodiment of Kain in the real world when they play the game? 😆

But is there in-universe information on the materia itself?

Either way, its a object harming a character. Gameplay and balance involved.

No it proves he tosses around Sarafan knights with ease like their rubbish, he consistently destroys them. Where did i say it was a feat for taking out planet busters? Terry you are failing so badly...lol, I think your going to try and straw man at some point because you cannot keep up with this debate and whats worst youve prob realised your gameplay dellusion is not going to save Sephiroth or your other fave characters from Kain.

No, none of them would, Dante would prob slash them about 14 times getting combo ratings like "showtime" when he hits them about 5 times, Sephrioth will be standing there waiting his turn just like they do on the games in their GAMEPLAY lol..

He states he gains them, simple, you seem to having trouble determining gameplay from in-universe information.

He isnt trying to kill Raziel or even defeat him so it shows how much you know and on the memory thing look above, the current Kain has lived through various time lines (more accuratley he remembers memories from another timeline, the BO2 timeline)

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^BT knows quite well what your talking about and what ur argument is. no use ecplaining it repeatedly, he just CHOOSES to play with you and bring up fallacies to give hie character a win.

I just have to keep Sephiroth fanboys from overunning this place, and your wrong on all accounts, instead of trolling add something to this debate please, or ill report you again. There are no fallacies, the fact your siding with Terry whos argument is based around gameplay shows you dont understand canon yourself or what a debate is.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He suggests it, he>you, that option is a player decision, which is not canon.

I've already given you a reply to what you're saying "option is a player decision"

here is what i said:

"I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.

I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).
"

Now are you really going to reply more nonsense and resay "optional is a player decision"?

Come on BT, just read and comprehend it for longer then 1 minute.

The same reason Sephiroth doesnt cast many powers in storyline, he hardly does anything but use his sword, then his fans say "zomg hez only toying with thems!!!" diffrence being Kain is fighting saps who couldnt do anything to him, Sephiroth fights people who defeat him outright.

If Sephiroth was fighting anyone else he'd kill them instantly, but since it was Cloud he wanted to drag it on tormenting him for as long as he could, and let him know he was going to take away everything he ever cared about.

Kain on the other hand goes around sword fighting people, gets embarassed by Moebius, gets owned by Raziel, and just simply refuses to use his so called "spells" that he has.

No you see I thought you would fall in that pitfall, Blood omen 2 Kain is a off-shoot from a time mainpulation, the current and latest Kain has lived through both realities, gaining the spells in the BO 2 before BO 2 was made possible.

yeh youve said a lot of things, does that make them true? bs, your desperatley likening the Player to Kain? your saying the Player is now the embodiment of Kain in the real world when they play the game? 😆

But is there in-universe information on the materia itself?

The world's changed a lot in the past few days......

That huge monster Meteor was covering up the sky and acting like he owned it or something...

A lot of my friends have died......

I'm goin' on a journey to pray for their souls.

OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?

I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em!

How about it?

Either way, its a object harming a character. Gameplay and balance involved.

No it proves he tosses around Sarafan knights with ease like their rubbish, he consistently destroys them. Where did i say it was a feat for taking out planet busters? Terry you are failing so badly...lol, I think your going to try and straw man at some point because you cannot keep up with this debate and whats worst youve prob realised your gameplay dellusion is not going to save Sephiroth or your other fave characters from Kain.

No, none of them would, Dante would prob slash them about 14 times getting combo ratings like "showtime" when he hits them about 5 times, Sephrioth will be standing there waiting his turn just like they do on the games in their GAMEPLAY lol..

He states he gains them, simple, you seem to having trouble determining gameplay from in-universe information.

Has Kain ever soul ripped anyone? No.

He isnt trying to kill Raziel or even defeat him so it shows how much you know and on the memory thing look above, the current Kain has lived through various time lines (more accuratley he remembers memories from another timeline, the BO2 timeline)

Show me proof he actually re-acquires his spells, and that he just doesn't remember the Events that took place.

Originally posted by Terryc250
He doesn't suggest anything wtf? Seriously you're just speaking nonsense now to try to excuse yourself here. Sorry BT but you fail.

I've already given you a reply to what you're saying "option is a player decision"

here is what i said:

"I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.

I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).
"

Now are you really going to reply more nonsense and resay "optional is a player decision"?

Come on BT, just read and comprehend it for longer then 1 minute.

Are you talking about the fight in AC? It was even stated that Sephiroth was toying around with him, its fact.
Sephiroth is leagues above Cloud and just wanted to torment him for along time, because of their history.

If Sephiroth was fighting anyone else he'd kill them instantly, but since it was Cloud he wanted to drag it on tormenting him for as long as he could, and let him know he was going to take away everything he ever cared about.

Kain on the other hand goes around sword fighting people, gets embarassed by Moebius, gets owned by Raziel, and just simply refuses to use his so called "spells" that he has.

Then wtf was the point in mentioning he loses his memory if its not even relevent?

Did I say that? I said the player plays as Kain, this is FACT. If the player has a decision to make, so does Kain. I've given you plenty of examples yet you're desperately just trying to put words in my mouth, purposely acting dull-witted and slow-minded to excuse yourself from giving an argument.

Yes, heres the master materia dialogue

The world's changed a lot in the past few days......

That huge monster [b]Meteor was covering up the sky and acting like he owned it or something...

A lot of my friends have died......

I'm goin' on a journey to pray for their souls.

OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?

I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em!

How about it?

So, you went on about how in-world is the same as cinematic, and now your saying that its gameplay? Rofl its hilarious how you cherry pick everything to make a LOK character stronger and downplay a character you don't like. Sorry BT but you fail, everything in the in-world gameplay is not accurate.

Lifting one sarafan knight doesn't mean he tosses them around like flies rofl, haha Sephiroth is above Kain BT, Kain is a featless character, seriously he's weak, higher characters like even Ryu Hayabusa would blitz Kain.

So show me Kain fighting outside of gameplay? Guaranteed its nothing impressive.

Not in the canon story he doesnt.

Has Kain ever soul ripped anyone? No.

So he's just going to let Raziel rip out his heart right? Lol, if he apprantly has all his spells he'd just incapicitate him or something.

Show me proof he actually re-acquires his spells, and that he just doesn't remember the Events that took place. [/B]

Yes he does, Kain says he has the spell himself so I guess hes not just suggesting your right, hes telling us hes got it. no your the one who needs to read and comprehend, it is all a player decision regardless of the fact the player is playing as Kain, the player doesnt excist in the canon of the game, the player is nothing, with the optional gameplay BS removed, your left with Kain saying he has the spell, the option doesnt excist because Kain alreayd has the speech for it. The option is simply the players option.

yeh right, I always hear he is leagues above him, obviously being beaten several times doesnt count however...he even gets impaled at some point but i cannot remebmer exactley when.

Moebius has something that affects all vampires unfortatley what Kain are we talking about because since i recall this is the latest Kain in this debate who is not affected. he doesnt get owned at all, infact Kain beats him first, so watch the videos again. Infact if you watch carefully you see both of them are in pain and Kain isnt even trying to kill Raziel.

Its relevent to BO2, so you cant use it as a "he didnt use hiz spelzor in that sequel" thus leaving you with only Defiance where he didnt use powers.
ONE sequel.

yet your constant useage of gameplay shows that, the player does indeed PLAY as Kain, in GAMEPLAY however the Players decisions do not infuleance the canon of the game.

He merely mentions the name of master materia....thats not dialogue much about the Master materia at all.

Thats not in-world wally lol...thats in-gameplay. No your right, the in-world gameplay apart form static events not touched by players or balance mechanics.

Well if youve played the games youll see he does it throughout, ime just showing you an example of how at his weakest he can easily toss Sarafan knights. Yeh in your bias sad little world Sephiroth is above kain, in the real world however, Kain could rip the fool apart as he tries to cast one of his one hour cast time spells.

he doesnt really fight outside of gameplay so far, he blitzes Raziel when he is possessin the body of moebis, flying instantly forwards and at the same time piercing a thick rock point first without momentum loss, that alone would scewer a couple of Sarafan. and show me Sephiroth being impressive lol, unless you think being sliced up by emos is impressive ofc.

kains voice is canon.....wtf are you talking about? your only argument is a gameplay one lol..

why should he have to?

He was held with his arms in the air, how is he going to cast? he doesnt fire incapaciate out of his eyes.

No your confused, he only remembers what happened in the BO2 timeline which did not excist beforehand, thus, he has lived BO2 in his memories but BO1 was his choice. he doesnt actually lose anything, he gains memories.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^BT knows quite well what your talking about and what ur argument is. no use ecplaining it repeatedly, he just CHOOSES to play with you and bring up fallacies to give hie character a win.

Weren't you just banned for this behaviour?

Oh, that's right, you were.

Knock it off or there's going to be another ban.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes he does, Kain says he has the spell himself so I guess hes not just suggesting your right, hes telling us hes got it. no your the one who needs to read and comprehend, it is [b]all a player decision regardless of the fact the player is playing as Kain, the player doesnt excist in the canon of the game, the player is nothing, with the optional gameplay BS removed, your left with Kain saying he has the spell, the option doesnt excist because Kain alreayd has the speech for it. The option is simply the players option.

No Kain does NOT say that in the storyline, he only says it IF the optional spell IS gained, which it most likely isn't. We've been over this about a hundred times now.

I've given you plently of examples you just refuse to believe it, and keep repeating yourself because you're to stubborn to concede when you have no argument left.

The bottom line is, the spell is optional, yes theres a description of it IF the spell is gained, but nothing suggests the optional spell is actually gained in the canon plot storyline, just as nothing suggests Cloud and party gained KOTR or Master Materia in the actual plot storyline.

yeh right, I always hear he is leagues above him, obviously being beaten several times doesnt count however...he even gets impaled at some point but i cannot remebmer exactley when.

Moebius has something that affects all vampires unfortatley what Kain are we talking about because since i recall this is the latest Kain in this debate who is not affected. he doesnt get owned at all, infact Kain beats him first, so watch the videos again. Infact if you watch carefully you see both of them are in pain and Kain isnt even trying to kill Raziel.

Its relevent to BO2, so you cant use it as a "he didnt use hiz spelzor in that sequel" thus leaving you with only Defiance where he didnt use powers.
ONE sequel.

yet your constant useage of gameplay shows that, the player does indeed PLAY as Kain, in GAMEPLAY however the Players decisions do not infuleance the canon of the game.

If something is optional for the player, it means its possible as well for Kain to not have gotten the spell.

For example, a mandatory materia in the storyline of FF7 is Fire, he needed it to ignite a mako reactor, that means in the story Cloud actually gets Fire materia, its a canon materia to the story, however optional materia like KOTR is a big "maybe" that he gets it in the story, yes its optional for the player, and its a "maybe" for Cloud.

Same thing with BO, Kain needed energy bolt to reach the switch in the story, but optional spells like spirit death is a "maybe" as well, its optional, and nothing suggests that he actually got it in the canon story.

He merely mentions the name of master materia....thats not dialogue much about the Master materia at all.

Thats not in-world wally lol...thats in-gameplay. No your right, the in-world gameplay apart form static events not touched by players or balance mechanics.

Well if youve played the games youll see he does it throughout, ime just showing you an example of how at his weakest he can easily toss Sarafan knights. Yeh in your bias sad little world Sephiroth is above kain, in the real world however, Kain could rip the fool apart as he tries to cast one of his one hour cast time spells.

he doesnt really fight outside of gameplay so far, he blitzes Raziel when he is possessin the body of moebis, flying instantly forwards and at the same time piercing a thick rock point first without momentum loss, that alone would scewer a couple of Sarafan. and show me Sephiroth being impressive lol, unless you think being sliced up by emos is impressive ofc.

Sephiroth just toying around is about 50x more impressive then featless Kain.

kains voice is canon.....wtf are you talking about? your only argument is a gameplay one lol..

why should he have to?

He was held with his arms in the air, how is he going to cast? he doesnt fire incapaciate out of his eyes.

No your confused, he only remembers what happened in the BO2 timeline which did not excist beforehand, thus, he has lived BO2 in his memories but BO1 was his choice. he doesnt actually lose anything, he gains memories.