Agreed. I'm not impressed with the stances of the opposition thus far. Excuse the delay, my internet died. Fortunately, I saved my typed rebuttal on Microsoft Word.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
With respect, you should of thought of the difficulty in comparing intellects before you started the argument that Sidious > Bane because he could dominate the galaxy and Bane couldnt. That Bane didnt have the intellect of Sidious, one of the best if not the best politician in the mythos, is a clear and distinct possibility. Its your job to refute it if you want to prove your argument that Sidious taking over the galaxy is proof of him being more powerful.
Anything contrary to the straightforward interpretation bears the burden of proof. For example, "Mace Windu defeated Darth Sidious." If you disagree, it is your burden to prove. The statement is thus: "The Sith waited a millennium for the birth of one powerful enough to return the Sith from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one -- the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for nearly eradicating the practitioners of the dark side." What you're asking me to do is prove that it isn't referring to intellect; that's not my job. It says power; Palpatine wasn't born with political power, and Darth Bane is a genius who achieved many of the same feats that the Emperor did, including the acquisition of a powerful apprentice, a wealthy and influential alter ego, and the ability to operate through total secrecy. It is not my job to prove that Bane is smarter or dumber than Sidious. It is your job to disprove the statement, which you can't do.
Yes the dark side has existed but Palpatine is a manifestation of the dark side.
I'm aware. But you like to pick and choose. To you, he's the manifestation of the dark side when it suits your argument. If he's the dark side taken from, then he would naturally be the pinnacle of it; he's smarter, stronger, and better than any Sith who came before him.
It would seem reasonable to think that his existence would cause the clouding, and Yodas quote supports that. Do you have anything that attributes the power directly to Palpatines mastery?
You can call this a cop out if you wish, but I'm dreadfully close to terminating this argument. If your premise is that the shroud of the dark side that is blunting Jedi sensitivity is due to Palpatine's existence, then it should have been a major problem before the events of the prequel trilogy, but it wasn't. Windu specifically notes that it is a major block to Jedi sensitivity as of Attack of the Clones; Palpatine is sixty years old at that time. You're clearly not paying attention, Great Vengeance.
And also you should remember that Zannah was capable of the same cloaking ability that Palpatine had.
What does Palpatine's mastery of Quey'tek have to do with this? We're not discussing his ability to cloak himself in the Force, we're discussing his ability to blunt Jedi sensitivity on a galactic scale. That is to overpower the senses of ten thousand Jedi.
And likewise you cant come close at all to proving that they would defeat Ragnos in combat. I already granted though that power is a strong indicator of who would win in a fight, and if you can show that Palpatine is most powerful than I would concede. But I havent seen evidence of that so far.
I didn't throw a fit about it, though, Great Vengeance. We operate all on generosity, here. I'm losing my ability to be generous with you. Because much of Ragnos's status stems on our ability to infer. If you want to leave it to strict feats, I can play hardball and point out that you can't prove his superiority over any two bit Jedi.
Bane had some ability in this yes. To the same degree? Very questionable. Palpatine may have embraced the dark side more than Bane, but I dont see how this translates to power.
Because embracing the source of the Sith's power to a greater extent than Bane wouldn't give him more power than Bane...?
I'll agree to your logic here.
Good.
Your right that it is subjective. But lets not lose track of the real issue, its your point that Palpatine embracing the dark side more fully than Bane means he was more powerful, and that the quote refered to a moral issue is a distinct possiblity. Your right that I cannot prove Sidious was more evil than Bane, but you would be even more hard pressed to prove Bane was as evil as Sidious.
I don't have to do it. Hell, Darth Maul has been canonized as a "creature of pure evil."
Banes intellect has not been established to be as high as Sidious. He did nothing on the scale Sidious did.
I'm giving you one final directive: cease with the double standards. You wanted civilty, I've given it; I want single standards, and I demand it. If we apply that logic universally, Ragnos is both a fool and a failure and Palpatine is leagues superior to him.
As far as being in the right place at the right time, how would clone troopers have been available in Banes time when its very questionable whether the technology was even available back then?
Right, so you're telling me that Bane couldn't have been in the right place at the right time because cloning may not have existed at this point?
I hope nothing of this sort makes its way into your next argument.
She had opinions, as I do also. I dont recall her putting her opinions into an official stance.
I do. She specifically stated she didn't find Sidious to be superior when compared to Bane and the Ancient Sith.
Anakin may have been more powerful than many of the masters in his own time period. However I think you will agree that to say Anakin was the most powerful Knight ever, then to take that quote and say Anakin was the most powerful Master ever, is fallible logic.
That's right.
But, I am deadly serious, Great Vengeance. Much of your subscribed logic defies reason entirely. You asked for an olive branch, and I have not insulted you. In return, you will drop all pretenses of double standards or this argument will not carry on.
Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I don't get it, why does GV hate a fictional character known as palpatine and need to feed the urge to argue?He just can't except the fact that sidious(OT to DE at least), IS the most powerful sith lord(but by all means, he is not infallible).
I'm not certain. Advent, Enyalus, and Great Vengeance are all keen to argue the point, really. That they argue is fine, but I remain singularly unimpressed with the majority of their rationale. For Great Vengeance, in particular, I'm not fond of double standards. He's going to learn that to debate with me is to debate one way or not at all.
I've acknowledged (I admit, begrudgingly) that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Although, I only due so because of the seemingly overwhelming textual evidence stating it. Feat-wise, excluding DE Sidious, I don't see it.
I think where many of you misunderstood me was with my DE Sidious argument and me noting that power does not always translate into combat ability. In PH, when I brought up the line of thought, I even mention something to the effect of, "I don't dispute he is the most powerful. Only that he is not able to effectively use that full power in combat."
No.Why must you three continue to pile on ridiculous excuse after ridiculous excuse to try to nullify the statement? First, Sidious wasn't born with the ability to cloak himself within the Force. Second, it is a Force technique -- that one must learn -- called Quey'tek. Third, Count Dooku, a brilliant speaker and strategist in his own right, has demonstrated mastery of Quey'tek as well.
'You three'???
I will admit that my point was poorly worded, so I'll do it again. Mabye Sidious could do what he did becuase he had the innate ability to use Sith sorcery, like the ability to shield his force presence, which Bane admits he cannot do. This would set his power up as being different to Banes own, not stronger, but different. Like how Caleb has a different, yet still formidible power to jedi.
So, like Zannah, Sidious has 'a power' that Bane doesn't have, but that alone doesn't make him more powerful. It just means that he can do different things. Bane, for instance, couldn't have done what Zannah or Sidious did in walking around the Jedi temple without getting caught, but that doesn't equate to him being less powerfull in other areas.
I hope that comes across as I intended.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Really, Enyalus? I can give you a list of feats to establish that Palpatine has the most power out of any Sith, at least by RotJ. Who would you consider stronger than him, in any case?
Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus and Darth Bane spring to mind initially. I might have more later on when I wake up (I'm not a morning person.)
If you can do show me featwise, that'd be great. Like I said, I don't dispute he's #1 overall, because of the textual evidence saying so.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Exar Kun, Darth Nihilus and Darth Bane spring to mind initially. I might have more later on when I wake up (I'm not a morning person.)If you can do show me featwise, that'd be great. Like I said, I don't dispute he's #1 overall, because of the textual evidence saying so.
Before I go on, there's no f*cking way Exar Kun is among the top three deadliest combatants. Yoda, Sidious, Luke- three who are more deadly than him. Saberwise? Dooku, Mace, RotS Anakin, potentially even Obi-Wan. There is no way he is among the three deadliest people in SW history.
AND, now to the more relevant topic; the only one you could make a half-decent case to is Nihilus, and even then, it's pretty much established that he is little more than a primal force of nature. In terms of raw power, it's plausible that he's second only to the Skywalker bloodline, but even so, Palpatine clearly possesses a stronger natural link to the dark side. This is evidenced by how the dark side itself built in preparation for his birth- he's the, well, agent of the dark side itself. No Sith before him had such an impact on the force, an impact that completely shifted the balance between the sides and destroyed the Jedi's foresight, enabling Sidious to gain control of the galaxy underneath their effin' noses.
Feats? Where do I begin? In Sithisis, he unleashed a ritual that now only caused devastating lightning storms to ravage Coruscan't surface, but also assaulted the minds of powerful Jedi- from Anakin, the person with the greatest raw power in galactic history, to Yoda, the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'. Later on, when the Lusankya was hidden, it was said- or at least implied- that Sidious' 'mind-fogging' powers wiped the minds of all witnesses to that event, which could number millions.
His lightning massacred a room full of Stormtroopers, a one-handed burst of lightning disintergrated three powerful Sith acolytes effortlessly, and nearly overpowered effin' Yoda. It also overcame not only Mace's incre-di-ble force-enhanced attributes, but also his Vaapad's energies. That > anything Bane's done with his lightning.
Saber ability? The only person on that list who would prove a challenge and a threat in saber combat is Bane, thanks only to the orbalisks. Sidious is still, however, faster and more technically skilled, being a 'master of every weapon and every form'- as identified by Nick Gillard. His speed-blitz feat, which is the murder of three of the greatest blade-users in the Jedi Order's history in seconds, while they were backed by Mace Windu, nontheless, is arguably one of the greatest within the mythos.
Yeah, even feat-wise, he's pretty much top-notch. Maybe not enough to confidently put him in the number spot, but easily enough to put him in the top 3.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
'You three'???I will admit that my point was poorly worded, so I'll do it again. Mabye Sidious could do what he did becuase he had the innate ability to use Sith sorcery, like the ability to shield his force presence, which Bane admits he cannot do. This would set his power up as being different to Banes own, not stronger, but different. Like how Caleb has a different, yet still formidible power to jedi.
powerful. It just means that he can do different things. Bane, for instance, couldn't have done what Zannah or Sidious did in walking around the Jedi temple without getting caught, but that doesn't equate to him being less powerfull in other areas.
So, like Zannah, Sidious has 'a power' that Bane doesn't have, but that alone doesn't make him [b]moreI hope that comes across as I intended. [/B]
If your intentions were to be completely wrong, it worked. Can you prove that the Quey'tek technique is a product of Sith sorcery? Even if it is, you have to deal with the fact that Zannah and Count Dooku have both demonstrated the ability to shield themselves within the Force, along with Sidious, but the statement from the Complete Visual Dictionary precludes any Sith but Sidious from being able to achieve the revenge of the Sith. Meaning that it isn't attributed because of his ability to shield himself, since Dooku and Zannah both shared the same ability.
For the final time: Sidious and only Sidious could accomplish the revenge of the Sith. Your logic would allow both Zannah and Dooku to meet the requirements as well.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Before I go on, there's no f*cking way Exar Kun is among the top three deadliest combatants. Yoda, Sidious, Luke- three who are more deadly than him. Saberwise? Dooku, Mace, RotS Anakin, potentially even Obi-Wan. There is no way he is among the three deadliest people in SW history.
When we get to my assessment of him, then, I'm sure you'll find it an interesting read. 🙂
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
AND, now to the more relevant topic; the only one you could make a half-decent case to is Nihilus, and even then, it's pretty much established that he is little more than a primal force of nature. In terms of raw power, it's plausible that he's second only to the Skywalker bloodline, but even so, Palpatine clearly possesses a stronger natural link to the dark side. This is evidenced by how the dark side itself built in preparation for his birth- he's the, well, agent of the dark side itself. No Sith before him had such an impact on the force, an impact that completely shifted the balance between the sides and destroyed the Jedi's foresight, enabling Sidious to gain control of the galaxy underneath their effin' noses.
The Dark Side was clouding Jedi perceptions for a hundred and twenty years prior to Sidious' birth, so let's not attribute that feat solely to him, eh? But yes, clearly Palpatine possesses a stronger link to the Dark Side, considering Nihilus is a wound in the Force (that entails both Light and Dark).
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Feats? Where do I begin? In Sithisis, he unleashed a ritual that now only caused devastating lightning storms to ravage Coruscan't surface, but also assaulted the minds of powerful Jedi- from Anakin, the person with the greatest raw power in galactic history, to Yoda, the 'most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known'. Later on, when the Lusankya was hidden, it was said- or at least implied- that Sidious' 'mind-fogging' powers wiped the minds of all witnesses to that event, which could number millions.
Force Storms have been unleashed before. Revan knew it. Bane knew it. I'm sure others knew it. Ontop of that, it's a ritual. You can't use such a thing in combat, and that's not a great gauge of someone's power (unless you want to say Revan = Bane = Sidious). Take the Thought Bomb, for instance. Kaan killed over 200 Jedi and Sith with it. Does Kaan have first-tier power? 'Course not.
Mind wiping that many people, I suppose, is impressive. But it has no relation to Force sensitive users or combat applications. Revan does a very similar thing with the Rataka.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
His lightning massacred a room full of Stormtroopers, a one-handed burst of lightning disintergrated three powerful Sith acolytes effortlessly, and nearly overpowered effin' Yoda. It also overcame not only Mace's incre-di-ble force-enhanced attributes, but also his Vaapad's energies. That > anything Bane's done with his lightning.
Dooku and Starkiller's lightning have done the same with regard to the stormtroopers. Sith acolytes are Sith acolytes. You know the definition of an 'acolyte'? Were they in a combat stance with lightsabers raised, defenses up? And last I remember about the Mace/Sidious thing, Sidious was getting his own Force Ligihtning thrown back in his face. *nod*
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Saber ability? The only person on that list who would prove a challenge and a threat in saber combat is Bane, thanks only to the orbalisks. Sidious is still, however, faster and more technically skilled, being a 'master of every weapon and every form'- as identified by Nick Gillard. His speed-blitz feat, which is the murder of three of the greatest blade-users in the Jedi Order's history in seconds, while they were backed by Mace Windu, nontheless, is arguably one of the greatest within the mythos.
Saber ability doesn't really translate directly into power, so I wasn't going to bring it up. Exar Kun was an amazing duelist. And Bane was said to have been a 'blur of motion' to the eyes of Sith apprentices - striking three times before they even knew what happened. I know Sidious is fast. My point isn't that Bane's speed > Sidious' speed. I'm just saying, they're comparable.
Also, about the 'master of every form' part...Don't you think, by inference, Bane was also a master of every form? I don't know of anything that explicitly says so, but he was a master of Djem So (and probably Shien), as well as Soresu. Going by the way Bane's Order operates, how would other later generations learn different saber forms? Palpatine, for instance, knew all seven. Who taught him? Ah yes, Plagueis. Where did Plagueis get that knowledge from? It's clear Bane's Order weren't former Jedi. That knowledge has to be passed down....from where?
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah, even feat-wise, he's pretty much top-notch. Maybe not enough to confidently put him in the number spot, but easily enough to put him in the top 3.
I'd put Sidious' saber ability at top tier prior to DE. Feats, nah. But like I already offered, I don't dispute the power.
"The dark side had been growing" =/= Jedi sensitivity being blunted on a galactic scale, Enyalus. There is a profound difference; do not refer to or imply that they are the same. Likewise, despite prodigious physical ability and the benefit of a superconducting loop, Windu was nearly killed by Palpatine's lightning and the Dark Lord surrendered; and was feigning weakness.
Originally posted by Gideon
"The dark side had been growing" =/= Jedi sensitivity being blunted on a galactic scale, Enyalus.
So, the Jedi were still able to see the future clearly without the Dark Side clouding it, prior to Sidious' birth? That wasn't my impression, but if you've got proof I'll drop that.
Originally posted by Gideon
Likewise, despite prodigious physical ability and the benefit of a superconducting loop, Windu was nearly killed by Palpatine's lightning and the Dark Lord surrendered; and was feigning weakness.
👆 I know.
Originally posted by Enyalus
So, the Jedi were still able to see the future clearly without the Dark Side clouding it, prior to Sidious' birth? That wasn't my impression, but if you've got proof I'll drop that.
This is your original post on the subject:
The Dark Side was clouding Jedi perceptions for a hundred and twenty years prior to Sidious' birth, so let's not attribute that feat solely to him, eh?
The statement from Labyrinth of Evil:
For two hundred years before the coming of Darth Sidious, the power of the dark side had been gaining strength, and yet the Jedi had made only minimal efforts to thwart it.
The power of the dark side was growing, yes, but there's no justification for your theory that it was clouding Jedi foresight until just before The Phantom Menace. Only in Attack of the Clones do the Jedi Masters actually state the issue.
👆 I know.
Didn't seem to be the case.
Forgive me if my argument seems sloppy- I'm dead tired and I'm about to go to sleep, but I'm too nice to keep you waiting.
Originally posted by EnyalusWhen we get to my assessment of him, then, I'm sure you'll find it an interesting read. 🙂
It'll be interesting.
Originally posted by Enyalus
The Dark Side was clouding Jedi perceptions for a hundred and twenty years prior to Sidious' birth, so let's not attribute that feat solely to him, eh? But yes, clearly Palpatine possesses a stronger link to the Dark Side, considering Nihilus is a wound in the Force (that entails both Light and Dark).
Nihilus is much more a primal force of nature than he is a man- he, quite simply, doesn't have a 'connection' to the force in the way we're used to seeing it. Therefore, it's difficult to look at him as a normal force user.
Sidious, meanwhile, is the embodiment of the dark side- a nexus of dark side energies embodied into a single, living being. The Dark Side rose in power in preparation for his birth- as I noted on Project Holocron, I believe that he is a sort of living vessel for the dark side to execute its revenge upon the Jedi. No one, and I repeat, no one, had such an impact on the dark side of the force than Sidious. He's also a 'black hole in the force'.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Force Storms have been unleashed before. Revan knew it. Bane knew it. I'm sure others knew it. Ontop of that, it's a ritual. You can't use such a thing in combat, and that's not a great gauge of someone's power (unless you want to say Revan = Bane = Sidious). Take the Thought Bomb, for instance. Kaan killed over 200 Jedi and Sith with it. Does Kaan have first-tier power? 'Course not.
Of course it's a ritual, but a ritual is some sort of testament to power. I'm merely using it as an indication for his power- never did I once say that it's a testament to his combat ability.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Mind wiping that many people, I suppose, is impressive. But it has no relation to Force sensitive users or combat applications. Revan does a very similar thing with the Rataka.
Correct. Only that the Rakata were FAR fewer in number (can you prove that there were potentially millions- even billions- of Rakata?).
Combat applications? No. It's relative to power and mastery of the dark side- in which Palpatine is numero uno.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Dooku and Starkiller's lightning have done the same with regard to the stormtroopers.
Same number of storm troopers? Like, dozens of them?
Originally posted by Enyalus
Sith acolytes are Sith acolytes. You know the definition of an 'acolyte'? Were they in a combat stance with lightsabers raised, defenses up?
Now, they didn't. But Sidious didn't sneak attack-own them; anyways, the very damage the lightning had upon them is impressive. One-handed lightning, too, so I doubt it would be full power.
Originally posted by Enyalus
And last I remember about the Mace/Sidious thing, Sidious was getting his own Force Ligihtning thrown back in his face. *nod*
He wasn't trying to overpower Mace- if he would have, he could have. The novel maintains that Mace was 'choking on ozone', and according to George Lucas, Sidious was feigning his weakness. The plausible result of that struggle if it ever ensued in a Sidious-bloodlusted setting? Mace being owned.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Saber ability doesn't really translate directly into power, so I wasn't going to bring it up. Exar Kun was an amazing duelist. And Bane was said to have been a 'blur of motion' to the eyes of Sith apprentices - striking three times before they even knew what happened. I know Sidious is fast. My point isn't that Bane's speed > Sidious' speed. I'm just saying, they're comparable.
Saber ability = combat prowess. Feats I listed previously = power.
Bane is most decidedly slower than Sidious, but hey, of course they're comparable. Bane is far stronger physically, and has the insanely cheap orbalisks to boot.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, about the 'master of every form' part...Don't you think, by inference, Bane was also a master of every form? I don't know of anything that explicitly says so, but he was a master of Djem So (and probably Shien), as well as Soresu. Going by the way Bane's Order operates, how would other later generations learn different saber forms? Palpatine, for instance, knew all seven. Who taught him? Ah yes, Plagueis. Where did Plagueis get that knowledge from? It's clear Bane's Order weren't former Jedi. That knowledge has to be passed down....from where?
Really, that's absolutely ridiculous. You have no way of proving the fact that no Sith was a corrupted Jedi- just because we only have knowledge of four doesn't speak for the others.
And besides, Sidious studied a vast amount of holocrons, including the holocrons and knowledge of people before Mace's time- he also had access to Jedi knowledge, or so I believe. He could have easily learned the forms from that.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd put Sidious' saber ability at top tier prior to DE. Feats, nah. But like I already offered, I don't dispute the power.
Saber ability? Top notch. Force mastery? Top notch. Force power? Debatable. Dark Side affinity? Top notch.
That's my opinion on the matter, in any case.
Originally posted by Crimzon
Same number of storm troopers? Like, dozens of them?
Nope. Like hundreds.
Originally posted by Crimzon
He wasn't trying to overpower Mace- if he would have, he could have. The novel maintains that Mace was 'choking on ozone', and according to George Lucas, Sidious was feigning his weakness. The plausible result of that struggle if it ever ensued in a Sidious-bloodlusted setting? Mace being owned.
It's amazing the power gap between Yoda and Mace, isn't it? Even with Vaapad's backing.
Originally posted by Crimzon
Bane is most decidedly slower than Sidious, but hey, of course they're comparable.
There's nothing until DE that actually proves that, but you gave Bane the nod in strength so I'll let it drop. 😉
Originally posted by Crimzon
Really, that's absolutely ridiculous. You have no way of proving the fact that no Sith was a corrupted Jedi- just because we only have knowledge of four doesn't speak for the others.
*sigh* This is why debating on here seems depressing the majority of the time. Creativity seems stifled. I did say 'by inference.' Of course I cannot prove it conclusively. But those same dark acolytes which Sidious disintegrated railed against Vader, calling him 'tainted' by his time with the Jedi and thus not a true Sith Lord. That would imply that the Sith they knew of in Bane's Order were never Jedi in the first place.
Originally posted by Crimzon
And besides, Sidious studied a vast amount of holocrons, including the holocrons and knowledge of people before Mace's time- he also had access to Jedi knowledge, or so I believe. He could have easily learned the forms from that.
Sidious was a master of every form prior to TPM and his training of Darth Maul. He didn't have that much access to holocrons and Sith knowledge, besides what Darth Plagueis might have acquired and everything else that was passed down. Darth Bane trained Zannah in a different style. Darth Plagueis trained Darth Sidious in apparently several. Why is it unreasonable to think that every Dark Lord of the Sith in Bane's Order would have had to know every saber form? How else would their apprentices have known other forms?
Originally posted by Crimzon
Saber ability? Top notch. Force mastery? Top notch. Force power? Debatable. Dark Side affinity? Top notch.That's my opinion on the matter, in any case.
Top notch? Yeah. #1? Eh...
According to The Dark Side Sourcebook's entry for Darth Sidious circa The Phantom Menace, Sidious was in possession of an "extraordinary wealth of dark side knowledge and artifacts." And nowhere is stated by a true canon authority that the Emperor is a master of all forms; he's a high end master of multiple forms, but nowhere is it stated that he is a master of all of them.
Originally posted by Gideon
According to The Dark Side Sourcebook's entry for Darth Sidious circa The Phantom Menace, Sidious was in possession of an "extraordinary wealth of dark side knowledge and artifacts."
Yes, that doesn't contradict what I was saying.
Originally posted by Gideon
And nowhere is stated by a true canon authority that the Emperor is a master of all forms; he's a high end master of multiple forms, but nowhere is it stated that he is a master of all of them.
I see...Crimzon said that Nick Gillard said that he was.
However, if what you say is true, then my 'Bane mastered all seven forms' would be very incorrect due to the premise being wrong, and I'd concede.