Sith Force Tournament

Was it ever implied that Darth Bane attempted to take over the galaxy? From what we currently know (hopefully more info will reveal itself during DK's third book) Bane doesn't even attempt to get into politics. It looks like he is setting up his network and connections for future generations, such as Zannah.

I don't recall who said it in this thread, but somebody mentioned that had Bane wanted to, he could have probably wiped out all of the Jedi on Ruusan, too. And didn't. This doesn't seem like he was exactly giving it his all.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Was it ever implied that Darth Bane attempted to take over the galaxy? From what we currently know (hopefully more info will reveal itself during DK's third book) Bane doesn't even attempt to get into politics. It looks like he is setting up his network and connections for future generations, such as Zannah.

I don't recall who said it in this thread, but somebody mentioned that had Bane wanted to, he could have probably wiped out all of the Jedi on Ruusan, too. And didn't. This doesn't seem like he was exactly giving it his all.

I dunno. Gideon seems to believe that Bane not taking over the galaxy is proof Sidious was stronger. That claim in itself is questionable, though even more so because Sidious relied mostly on his political skills rather than leading the charge of his armies in a military conquest.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yes Bane no doubt had some intellect and manipulative abilities, though there is the matter of degree. Can you provide some evidence that would directly show that Banes intellectual prowess could match Sidious, who is most likely the best politician in the entire mythos?

A statement from Windu is fallible, especially when the statement concerns the entire history of the Jedi. Anakin may or may not have *deserved* master, but the quote you used as proof designates that he was the most powerful knight, not the most powerful of the masters. And since nearly all of the most powerful Jedi of the order were masters, this quote is inadequate proof.

Is everything 'inadequate' except when it helps your point?

he does a damn fine job of it throughout PoD with Kaan and the Brotherhood and Rule of Two in the whole network building.

source of which? Palpatine. Next point

Good tihng Palpatine is already confirmed to have that point just by the description of his Dark Side presence alone-nevermind the rest

??? Palpatine clouding the force is not proof he was more powerful, sorry.

One of them has personally butchered children in front of their father. One hasn't.
Permit me to scoff at any insinuation Bane is anything less than a monster

Yes he was certainly a bad guy, but Palpatine gave himself up to the dark side completely, as is stated in DE Im pretty sure. That is what the quote was refering to, not that Palpatine was stronger with the force. There is no real connection at all between 'embracing the dark side fully' and power.

Secondary material goes against you. Not only is Palpatine directly stated to be the most powerful of Bane's order several times, he's stated to be the most powerful Sith full stop

Yes Im aware of your quotes however the authority of your sources to make broad statements about the mythos is in question. Your going to have to show that those sources operate under a completely omniscient narrator.

It would've been even more vulnerable, actually

According to...?

Actually, it comes from you continuously trying to find rather weak loopholes in the quotes to make it seem like every single author and writer means something totally different

Yes I have rigorous standards, but you would likely apply the same standards if I was arguing Ragnos vs Sidious. My points arent weak loopholes, they are genuine contentions that you will have to address if you want to prove Sidious is the most powerful.

Ask Advent, she's practically got it saved. He says it precisely: "Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi.

Very well I will accept it. Though the 'prime of the Jedi' is a general concept, it cannot apply to individuals. I could take the same logic and say that since Ragnos was the most powerful of the Golden age of the Sith, he is without a doubt the most powerful Sith ever.

Is everything 'inadequate' except when it helps your point?

The quote in question is invalid proof by any standards. Saying that Anakin is the most powerful Knight ever does not in any way prove that he was the most powerful Jedi overall since the quote ignores all the members of Master rank.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Certainly your not suggesting Bane did anything political on the scale of Palpatine though?

The quote in question is invalid proof by any standards. Saying that Anakin is the most powerful Knight ever does not in any way prove that he was the most powerful Jedi overall since the quote ignores all the members of Master rank.

I'll wait for you to worm your way through it, though. Should provide some amusement.

About time you got a better avatar GV, i always disliked that gman gay fella.

Originally posted by LS
We know Yoda was stronger. And one of the quotes is 'most powerful Jedi of his generation, perhaps of any.'
New Essential Chronology-which, dear me...does make mention of Marka and his reign, and displays quite the knowledge of the Ancient Empire- also says Anakin had the highest force potential ever.
Oh, and the Vader Ultimate Guide quote, in the whole details-and remember...it includes a handy Sith timeline, too.- says Vader needed to find an apprentice to defeat the most Powerful Sith ever.
Oh, and it only briefly details Vader's feelings first. It's not from his POV. Narrator through and through.

I'll wait for you to worm your way through it, though. Should provide some amusement.

You're the one bringing them up. So post the quotes. The full quotes. Or do not bother bringing them into this. His job is to refute the textual evidence that you provide, not your vague allusions to misinterpreted quotations. And since Gideon has provided the full quote to the 'Ultimate Guide' comment, don't attempt to edit out part of it in order to make it look infallible.

He was around Palpatine's age at this point. If he'd wanted to? Hello, Senator Eddels

So now your argument is that Bane didnt make the political gains Palpatine did because he didnt *want* to....? If Bane didnt want to take over the galaxy, than your argument is already dead because it assumes that Bane *did* want to take over the galaxy but could not.

One would think this is due to SOME power and ability on this behalf

One could think that. And? Unfounded speculation.

Yet he's the only one with power to do so

Yoda specifically states that the dark side clouds the force, it isnt some unique ability of Palpatine. Palpatine was simply the strongest dark side user of the time, and also only one of two at any given time. There is nothing to suggest Bane or the ancients couldnt do the same thing Palpatine did. Given the Yoda quote, it would not even be reasonable to think they could not.

Which is why Bane can't unlock his potential until he embraces the Dark Side completely.
Get off your insane bias and stop trying to make weak rationalizations for literally over a dozen quotes because you don't like the conclusion

Where does it say Bane cant unlock his potential until he completely embraces the dark side?

how about Vader, the Ultimate guide, which names Palpatine the most powerful Sith from a narrator...who has conveniently, in the same book, provided a timeline of the Sith.

Bring out the full quote, with full context or else dont bring it up at all. Also since your talking about an obscure source that I would have no access to, I'll have to ask for a scan as additional proof that your not making this up. To my knowledge you have never brought this quote up before, and I actually searched quite a bit, so the whole thing smells very fishy to me.

Logic? It'd nearly been toppled and in need of massive reform.

Actually that is a better description of the Republic that Palpatine overthrew.

Actually, I'd just spring out the available evidence, since all Ragnos has is vague quotes and his only showings are: "Ass kicked by Padawan on Korriban.

"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." How is that in any way vague?

And how did Ragnos get his ass kicked on Korriban? He had lost his body parts which effects force power greatly as confirmed in the case of Anakin, possessed Tavion who is a weakling on her own, and his ghost has been decaying for 5000 years. That argument isnt going to fly, sorry.

So please. Spare me this Antediluvian bull and bring something to the table. Who's logically more powerful: Guy with far greater, better feats, lots of canonical backing, both in and out of universe, or the guy with only vague quotes attached to him?

Force storm is impressive, though theres not much else of note as far as raw power is concerned. His canonical backing is questionable.

Ragnos support is in no way vague. It is canon that he is the dominant figure in his own time. Hence, the most powerful of the most powerful quote. His inferiors built machines that could blow up stars and create illusion armys. His staff could drain mass amounts of force energy, even when used by a novice. His death left trembling images in the force. He ruled the ancient sith society with an iron fist, and no one would try to usurp his rule even at his death bed.

This isnt conclusive proof that Ragnos > Sidious, but stop pretending like Ragnos has no backing.

Yawn. Golden Age of the Sith EMPIRE. Not Golden Age of the Sith as a whole.
And y'know, in the 'Prime' of the Jedi, it usually means the top people are the best ever. Most powerful foe the Darkness had ever known?
*Waits for you to cry fallible*
No doubt, you'll try that, rather than actually consider why so many materials of all that fallible info continues to be published despite NO similar backing for your favorites.
Mountain of evidence on one side. Your bias and supposition. Whichever do I choose?

The comic is just named the Golden age of the Sith, nothing more than that is specified.

And again 'the prime of the Jedi' is too general a statement to say that the best among them is the best ever. The ROTS quote has already been shown to be from Yodas POV. The argument is fallible. 😉

We know Yoda was stronger. And one of the quotes is 'most powerful Jedi of his generation, perhaps of any.'
New Essential Chronology-which, dear me...does make mention of Marka and his reign, and displays quite the knowledge of the Ancient Empire- also says Anakin had the highest force potential ever.
Oh, and the Vader Ultimate Guide quote, in the whole details-and remember...it includes a handy Sith timeline, too.- says Vader needed to find an apprentice to defeat the most Powerful Sith ever.
Oh, and it only briefly details Vader's feelings first. It's not from his POV. Narrator through and through.

First of all, i want to apologise to you for how much of an ass i had been towards you.

Second of all, please allow me to voice my opinion on the debate.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." How is that in any way vague?

Originally posted by Great Vengeance

Ragnos support is in no way vague. It is canon that he is the dominant figure in his own time. Hence, the most powerful of the most powerful quote. His inferiors built machines that could blow up stars and create illusion armys. His staff could drain mass amounts of force energy, even when used by a novice. His death left trembling images in the force. He ruled the ancient sith society with an iron fist, and no one would try to usurp his rule even at his death bed.

I am not denying he is powerful, but there is absolutely no feats to substantiate just how powerful he truly is, we do understand he > all the ancient sith but what did the ancient sith really do with the force, with their own power, without the aid of sith technology? I recall naga, one of the more infamous sith lords hurling a brick, with the aid of the amulets(they were glowing, give me a link to the comics and ill check to verify once more) while being empowered by korribans dark side energy.

But he is definately very powerful, just how powerful has yet to be known(kreia mentions him as tremendously strong in the force).

EDIT.

Voice your opinion, if you don't believe sidious is number 1, then who to you is?

Or who is number 2, personally i believe its nihilus for sheer power and bane for his force knowledge.

Jesus Christ I used to argue this point with LS all the time and he was right. The most powerful of the most powerful of the ancient sith. How the hell could the comic detailing 5000 BBY, have anything to do with the entire star wars mythos? That's just a retarded line of thought.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
So now your argument is that Bane didnt make the political gains Palpatine did because he didnt *want* to....? If Bane didnt want to take over the galaxy, than your argument is already dead because it assumes that Bane *did* want to take over the galaxy but could not.

Force storm is impressive, though theres not much else of note as far as raw power is concerned. His canonical backing is questionable.

Ragnos support is in no way vague. It is canon that he is the dominant figure in his own time. Hence, the most powerful of the most powerful quote. His inferiors built machines that could blow up stars and create illusion armys. His staff could drain mass amounts of force energy, even when used by a novice. His death left trembling images in the force. He ruled the ancient sith society with an iron fist, and no one would try to usurp his rule even at his death bed.

This isnt conclusive proof that Ragnos > Sidious, but stop pretending like Ragnos has no backing.

The comic is just named the Golden age of the Sith, nothing more than that is specified.

And again 'the prime of the Jedi' is too general a statement to say that the best among them is the best ever. The ROTS quote has already been shown to be from Yodas POV. The argument is fallible. 😉

The NEC is invalid because its told from a third party source. Im awaiting proof of your claims about the Vader Ultimate Guide. You have verified your claims by using scans before, and if what you say is true than it should be no problem. [/B]

I've given you the source and the page number. Don't have it? Not my problem.

Here is the quote, GV:

Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19:

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."

Argumentation can be found here.

Sidious rise to power was circumstantial.

Sidious dealt with Jedi who had not dealt with a Sith or any powerful dark user in perhaps hundreds of years. The lack of experience from the Jedi, Republic and the element of surprise was to Sidious’s advantage.

One could easily say that if Anakin had not turn to the dark side Sidious reign would have ended with his defeat at Anakin and Windu hands. If the circumstances were different in the fight between Yoda and Sidious which Sidious initial ran from, Sidious reign would have ended.

The same could be said of Revan who was betrayed by Malak and who also decided after the defeat of Malak to leave instead of restoring the, sith or Republic. Also Exar Kun if he was not betrayed by Ulic. The difference is, when it came for the pivotal point of Sidious reign, Anakin did turn to dark side and things workout in Sidious favor.

The time periods were different and to Sidious advantage. One could easily say since Sidious was one who avoided direct confrontations with the Jedi could he have survive and rule the Sith during the Kotor era?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Sidious rise to power was circumstantial.

Sidious dealt with Jedi who had not dealt with a Sith or any powerful dark user in perhaps hundreds of years. The lack of experience from the Jedi, Republic and the element of surprise was to Sidious’s advantage.

The time periods were different and to Sidious advantage. One could easily say since Sidious was one who avoided direct confrontations with the Jedi could he have survive and rule the Sith during the Kotor era? [/B]

Originally posted by Kotor3
Sidious rise to power was circumstantial.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Circumstantial? He helped CREATE the circumstance. And no powerful Dark Siders? Just Kibh Jeen, the Jensaari, Volfe Karkko...

Not like Palpatine spent ten years grooming Anakin and increasing his anxiety and rage, right?
and Yoda felt if the fight continued, he would lose

Yeah...just as Palpatine [B]KNEW HE WOULD
In the novelization, what was Palpatine's shatterpoint?
Windu: "Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker."

Manipulating a war and a perfect Apprentice strikes me as a good plan. [/B]

You are missing the point Lightsnake that is why I mention Revan and Kun. Did not Revan create the circumstances for his empire? Didn't Revan groom not one Jedi or Sith but many for his purposes? Still with all the grooming, manipulating that Revan did he was still betrayed. There was nothing wrong with his plan except that a circumstance arose in which Malak was able to betray him.

The same with Anakin, yes I agree with your points concerning Sidious plan his manipulating and grooming of Anakin, however at that moment with his defeat to Windu his chance to rule was depended on Anakin accepting the dark side if he didn't it is most likely that Sidious would have never defeated the Jedi.

That does not make Sidious more special than Revan or Kun when it comes to power or strategy. What is does do is make Sidious special when it comes to being successful to the fullest extent.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You are missing the point Lightsnake that is why I mention Revan and Kun. Did not Revan create the circumstances for his empire? Didn't Revan groom not one Jedi or Sith but many for his purposes? Still with all the grooming, manipulating that Revan did he was still betrayed. There was nothing wrong with his plan except that a circumstance arose in which Malak was able to betray him.

The same with Anakin, yes I agree with your points concerning Sidious plan his manipulating and grooming of Anakin, however at that moment with his defeat to Windu his chance to rule was depended on Anakin accepting the dark side if he didn't it is most likely that Sidious would have never defeated the Jedi.

That does not make Sidious more special than Revan or Kun when it comes to power or strategy. What is does do is make Sidious special when it comes to being successful to the fullest extent.

I think the best part of KOTOR3's argument was this:

The same could be said of Revan who was betrayed by Malak and who also decided after the defeat of Malak to leave instead of restoring the, sith or Republic. Also Exar Kun if he was not betrayed by Ulic. The difference is, when it came for the pivotal point of Sidious reign, Anakin did turn to dark side and things workout in Sidious favor.

Originally posted by LS
Yeah...just as Palpatine KNEW HE WOULD
In the novelization, what was Palpatine's shatterpoint?
Windu: "Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker."

That's not refuting KOTOR's claim that Palpatine becoming emperor was due to favorable circumstance. No matter what anyone says (unless they're omniscient), no one knows what someone else will do. They might have a good feeling or be well informed about it. But they do not know for certain. It was a gamble. A well reasoned gamble. But it was hardly a sure thing. For instance:

Man1: Guess how many jellybeans are in this jar and win a prize!
Man2: Umm...453!
Man1: Let's count 'em up...*counts* Wow, you're right!
Man2: I knew it!

Now, did he really know it? Not at all. Justified true belief, and all that jazz. For more info, look up Edmund L. Gettier's essay on the topic. It's only 3 pages long, and although I have a hard copy I'm sure you can find it online.

Anywho - yeah, Sidious' rise to power was due to a lot of favorable circumstance. However, he created a lot of his own luck through his brilliant machinations. Props to him.

And um, LS or someone...can you explain to me more clearly how Shatterpoint works? Does it only work when in combat, or whenever the person wants it to? Because note that earler in ROTS Mace mentions, "The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor." And this is before he reveals himself. I don't know why they weren't doing more to prevent his actions then. PIS?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Revan did not orchestrate the Mandalorian Wars, which were absolutely pivotal in the rise of Revan's Sith. So no, he did not create the circumstances.

Tangible before you make a comment how about you read what was stated and know what you are taking about.

The Mandalorian Wars was before Revan even came up the idea of creating his own Sith empire. It was the cause and start of Revan's Legacy.

Revan did create the circumstances for the his new Sith empire and a stronger Republic. He did create the circumstances for Jedi turning over to the dark side and becoming Sith. He did create the circumstances to start a war with the Republic. It was Revan who cause all of those things to happen.

Revan became the hero of the Mandalorian Wars. Took his loyal followers to the unkwown regions and conveted them to the dark side. Found and used the Star Forge to his advantage. Left the Republic stable enough to become stronger.

Play the game again or read up on Revan. What you said is ridiculous.

And um, LS or someone...can you explain to me more clearly how Shatterpoint works? Does it only work when in combat, or whenever the person wants it to? Because note that earler in ROTS Mace mentions, "The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor." And this is before he reveals himself. I don't know why they weren't doing more to prevent his actions then.

From Shatterpoint:

That is my gift.
Imagine a Corusca gem: a mineral whose interlocking crystalline structure makes it harder han durasteel. You can strike one with a five kilo hammer and do no more than dent the hammer's face. Yet the same crystalline structure that gives the Corusca strength also gives it shatterpoints: spots where a precise application of carefully measured force- no more than a gentle tap- will break it into pieces. But to find these shatterpoints, to use them to shape the Corusca gem into beauty and utility, requires years of study, an intimate understanding of crystal structure, and rigorous practice to train the hand in the perfect combination of streangth and precision to produce the desired cut.
Unless you have a talent like mine.
I can see shatterpoints.
The sense is not sight, but see is the closest word Baic has for it: it is a perception, a feel of how what I look upon fits into the Force, and how the Force binds it to itself and to everything else. I was six or seven yyears old- well into my training- before I realized that other students, full-grown Jedi Knights, even wise Masters, could sense such connections only with difficulty, and only with concentration and practice. The Force shows me strengths and weaknesses, hidden flaws and unexpected uses. It shows me vectors of stress theat squeeze or stretch, torque or shear; it shows me how patterns of these vectors intersect to form the matrix of reality.
Put simply, when I look at you through the Force, I can see where you break.[...]
Situations have shatterpoints, like gems. But those of situations are fluid, ephemeral, appearing for a bare instant, vanishing again to leave no trace of their existence. They are always a function of timing.

Hope this helps.