Originally posted by Enyalus
Crimzon, I'm beginning to seriously doubt your command and comprehension of the English language. 😛Sith [b]Force
TournamentWhat's the bolded word imply? Saber skill is a non-factor. [/B]
is that correct u? i meam im right im sure. so shutup troll.
Oh, and my command of the English language is perfection.
Holy shit, though. I didn't notice all that. Silly me. I'm too lazy to repost my analysis of the fight, though.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nah its a myth. If somone actually provides proof of this then I stand corrected, but Ive never seen anyone prove it. And LS or Gideon would be flaunting this quote like it was the second coming if it actually existed.
Narrator from Death Star: "The Emperor was completely in concert with the Dark Side of the Force. He was the most powerful sith who had ever lived."
There's plenty more establishing superiority. The only one with power enough to achieve the long awaited Sith goal-paraphrasing, only one powerful enough to tame the Dark Side...
Palpatine as the time is about as close to face as you get now.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
is that correct u? i meam im right im sure. so shutup troll.Oh, and my command of the English language is perfection.
Holy shit, though. I didn't notice all that. Silly me. I'm too lazy to repost my analysis of the fight, though.
I forgive you since you're foreign scum. 😉 😛
@ LS: There's nothing to suggest that she needs an opponent to be distracted. She just needed time enough to move her fingers without having Sarro chop her in half.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
If she could rip through a Force shield, one would assume she'd do so when Johun was giving her a chance to leisurely block them and Sarro decided to showboat by rearing up, twirling his saber around himself and then leaping forward.Available evidence is against Zannah
I don't know what possible evidence you're using. Your very explanation of events contradicts your conclusion. She explicitly says that Sarro was open to other forms of attack (either the Horror spell or some other Sith sorcery) if she had the time to use it. She doesn't. Just because she knew where Johun was going to be attacking, allowing her to easily block, does not mean that she had the time to get the spell off inbetween parries. She does not have that kind of superspeed. So it's irrelevant if it was obvious where the strikes were coming from, since she can't block them and summon the spell at the same time.
Furthermore, she's fighting two opponents at that time. So, what, she uses the spell against Sarro and allows herself to be cut down by Johun in the time it takes to do it? Right.
You gotta let this whole Bane and Ancient Sith hatred go. I'm not Nebaris or Illustrious. Because I occasionally pick them to win, does not mean I'm a fanboy blind to obvious details.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Narrator from Death Star: "The Emperor was completely in concert with the Dark Side of the Force. He was the most powerful sith who had ever lived."
Nope, the knowledge of the narrator is limited to the characters involved. There were not any ancient Sith in Death Star, and Palpatines knowledge of them is not complete. Besides that, it would not be reasonable to think that Palpatine had an honest opinion of himself.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope, the knowledge of the narrator is limited to the characters involved. There were not any ancient Sith in Death Star, and Palpatines knowledge of them is not complete. Besides that, it would not be reasonable to think that Palpatine had an honest opinion of himself.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't know what possible evidence you're using. Your very explanation of events contradicts your conclusion. She explicitly says that Sarro was open to other forms of attack (either the Horror spell or some other Sith sorcery) if she had the time to use it. She doesn't. Just because she knew where Johun was going to be attacking, allowing her to easily block, does not mean that she had the time to get the spell off inbetween parries. She does not have that kind of superspeed. So it's irrelevant if it was obvious where the strikes were coming from, since she can't block them and summon the spell at the same time.
Moreover, there's a point where Sarro is not attacking or doing anything but showboating. He rears up, grins and twirls his saber before leaping leaping forward after Johun leaves. Zannah just readies herself.
That's what we call 'time to use it.' This'd take more time than quickly looking behind you. And quite frankly, I doubt Zannah's assertion that Sarro's training leaves him vulnerable to her other forms of attack. She knows precisely nothing of Sarro's training or ability beyond sabers
Furthermore, she's fighting two opponents at that time. So, what, she uses the spell against Sarro and allows herself to be cut down by Johun in the time it takes to do it? Right.
You gotta let this whole Bane and Ancient Sith hatred go. I'm not Nebaris or Illustrious. Because I occasionally pick them to win, does not mean I'm a fanboy blind to obvious details.
And frankly, I'll hold a special little grudge against Bane because he bordered on actually interesting in Jedi vs. Sith, as did the entire setting and scenario. With the exception of Kopecz, Karpyshyn managed to screw up the entire era, situation and characters to the point where they ceased to be even SLIGHTLY interesting with his "Screw continuity, I'm an ARTISTE!" attitude.
In the Force, Zannah's shown us little beyond using Sith sorcery on an exhausted, distracted opponent and a Chiss terrorist and a spell of concealment. As far as available power goes, Vader takes her without much trouble.
At least until the third Bane novel has her annihilating stars for disrupting her nap.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope, the knowledge of the narrator is limited to the characters involved. There were not any ancient Sith in Death Star, and Palpatines knowledge of them is not complete. Besides that, it would not be reasonable to think that Palpatine had an honest opinion of himself.
LOL. I love how quick you are to try to dodge the issue.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The omniscient narrator is an out of universe source. It is not subject to that sort of fallibility unless a retcon occurs. In other words: It's a godly voice stating a fact. End.
Nor is that from Palpatine's POV.
And Palpaitne's 'knowledge of them isn't completely?' Fun how indications are that his knowledge of them is totally complete and he had control of their spirits at points.
And I can play that game too. Look at the quote about Ragnos in which he is stated as the most powerful of the most powerful. If the narrator has knowledge beyond the characters in his work, than the narrator wouldnt be limited to a certain timeframe either. So when the narrator says Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful, that is conclusive evidence according to your reasoning, of Ragnos being more powerful than Sidious and indeed more powerful than anyone else in the SW universe. But all this is meaningless since your reasoning is flawed.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Im not dodging the issue. If you see a flaw in my reasoning than point it out, otherwise dont be upset because Im raining on your parade of Sidious being the god of SW.
I'm not fond of double standards. I'm a Sidious fanboy and Sidious is a 'god of SW!!1!' because I correctly proclaim him to be the pinnacle of Sithdom... yet you, who has absolutely no evidence that Revan is anything approaching uber will state that you believe him to be stronger?
Let's be honest here. At least I have evidence. Which makes my arguments... many, many, many times better than yours. 😉
Edit: Yeah, forgot about Ragnos, too. Gotta love Ancient Sith fanboys... they provide great entertainment. For the record, there is a timeframe that attaches to Palpatine "...most powerful Sith ever" or "most powerful Sith in history" > a statement that applies for Ragnos.
LOL at Lightsnake's inane ramblings. I'd really love for the claim that Bane is a "1-D character" to be substantiated, considering we see him in a variety of more roles than almost any character in the mythos (student to teacher, follower to leader, combatant to master manipulator), see the entire development of his character realistically and properly fleshed out (where unlike that of most Sith, his path to the darkside is almost a constant struggle, with him constantly questioning the evil actions he takes, and the person he's becoming), and witness him shift through numerous different states of mind as the plot expands (from outright pathetic at times, to the more assured character he later becomes). Hell, even his relationships with the other characters are better explored and fleshed out than almost any other character in the mythos with the time frame we're dealing with (his relationship with Githany, and Kas'im), especially in comparison to other Sith. I'm sorry Lightsnake but you can whine about how perfect he is and how much you hate that about him all the time, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many elements to his character and Drew K writes him with more creativity and brilliance than any other author has with their respective characters.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Look
The 'omniscient' narrator is limited to what can be known, seen, thought, or judged from a single character's perspective.
And I can play that game too. Look at the quote about Ragnos in which he is stated as the most powerful of the most powerful. If the narrator has knowledge beyond the characters in his work, than the narrator wouldnt be limited to a certain timeframe either.
So when the narrator says Ragnos is the most powerful of the most powerful, that is conclusive evidence according to your reasoning, of Ragnos being more powerful than Sidious and indeed more powerful than anyone else in the SW universe. But all this is meaningless since your reasoning is flawed.
That, and by all available evidence, Palpatine>Marka. By far
Originally posted by Taven
LOL at Lightsnake's inane ramblings. I'd really love for the claim that Bane is a "1-D character" to be substantiated, considering we see him in a variety of more roles than almost any character in the mythos (student to teacher, follower to leader, combatant to master manipulator), see the entire development of his character realistically and properly fleshed out (where unlike that of most Sith, his path to the darkside is almost a constant struggle, with him constantly questioning the evil actions he takes, and the person he's becoming), and witness him shift through numerous different states of mind as the plot expands (from outright pathetic at times, to the more assured character he later becomes). Hell, even his relationships with the other characters are better explored and fleshed out than almost any other character in the mythos with the time frame we're dealing with (his relationship with Githany, and Kas'im), especially in comparison to other Sith. I'm sorry Lightsnake but you can whine about how perfect he is and how much you hate that about him all the time, but that doesn't change the fact that there are many elements to his character and Drew K writes him with more creativity and brilliance than any other author has with their respective characters.
Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and clichéd mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
The term "canon-Sue" (also written as canon!Sue) or "Possession Sue" is used to describe canon characters who are changed significantly from their original canon characterization and sometimes even divorced from their original context completely. Such characters are seen as having been heavily idealized to the point of being more of a stand-in for the author's wish fulfillment than being the original canon character.
Characters most frequently labeled "canon-Sues" often develop the typical associated over-the-top traits of a "Mary Sue" with little precedent or explanation, a process sometimes called "sueification." Some examples are the discoveries of tragic pasts and abilities superior to other canon characters, the elimination or romanticization of flaws, and being antagonized by characters disliked by the fan-author while befriended by canon characters liked by the author - regardless of how friendly or unfriendly they were before.
If the "canon-Sue" deviates enough from the original, it may be referred to jocularly as an act of "canon rape" - a term often used when a significant (and disliked) change has been made to the canon world or characters, such as when a former hero is vilified without explanation, a character who is unpopular in the canon receives a make-over and becomes popular, or a usually-chaste canon character is easily seduced by a fan-created "Mary Sue" character. Even in alternate universe stories where the premise ostensibly might involve examining how the story might play out differently if characters behaved differently, many readers criticize such changes as being too extreme.
Canon Sue (in original source)
A "canon Sue" may also refer to a character whose canon portrayal itself is seen as a "Mary Sue", rather than a character who has been altered in fan fiction. Typically, this refers to a character accused of being overly idealized or having other traits traditionally associated with fan fiction "Mary Sues", such as being "special" by having a gratuitously tragic past, unrealistic skills, or a seeming inability for the character to do wrong
Nebaris, maybe you should put down PoD and start reading big boy books.
Oh, and after running Bane through the Mary Sue litmus test, his score was: 132.
This isn't just HIGH, it's off the ****ing chart and I skipped more than one section of the test!
0-16 Points
Most likely Not-Sue. Characters at this level could probably take a little spicing up without hurting them any.
17-21
Probably not a Mary-Sue, although a character can go either way at this point. Fanfiction writers should pay attention to ensure that their characters aren't getting too Sue-ish. For an RPG or original fiction character, however, you're probably perfectly fine.
22-29
Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. A little polishing might be in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should probably have some work done.
30+
Fanfiction authors beware - Mary's on the loose. There's still a chance you can save this character with some TLC, though. Role-players and original fiction characters, you should also strongly consider giving your character a workover.
36+
Fanfiction authors, you might just want to start over. Role-players and original fiction authors, at this point your characters are likely to provoke eye-rolling and exclaimations of "yeah, right!" from your readers. (Well, at least from me.) Immediate workover is probably in order.
50+
Kill it dead. Or make sure you read the instructions properly (some people don't do this, which causes freakishly high scores) and take the test again.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
If it's describing something happening from their point of view, yes. Unfortunately, it's stating a mythos fact. There's more to back it up and considering Palpatine's knowledge of the Ancient Sith is complete...
Nope the narrator has no authority to state a mythos fact about characters which arent involved in the story. And Sidious' knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt complete, dont be ridiculous. To have a complete knowledge it would be necessary for him to look back in time, and I rather doubt he has this ability.
Yeah, it's a funny thing that said quote happens to commenting on the time frame. The 'Now he is dead and two explorers' thing would kind of indicate that it's not applying to 'of all time'
Actually, it's not since you're taking a quote meaning to that specific time and applying it to the entire mythos whereas the Palpatine quotes are meant to apply to 'ever.'
Again there is nothing in the actual quote suggesting the narrator only meant the ancient Sith. The only way your argument would hold any water is if the narrator was limited to the knowledge of his characters. Oh damn there goes all your Sidious quotes.
Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Nope the narrator has no authority to state a mythos fact about characters which arent involved in the story. And Sidious' knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt complete, dont be ridiculous. To have a complete knowledge it would be necessary for him to look back in time, and I rather doubt he has this ability.
Your own interpretation. There is nothing in the actual quote which states that the narrator only meant the ancient Sith.
"Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith - the most powerful of the most powerful." Sorry, but its cut and dry.
Again there is nothing in the actual quote suggesting the narrator only meant the ancient Sith.
The only way your argument would hold any water is if the narrator was limited to the knowledge of his characters. Oh damn there goes all your Sidious quotes. [/B]
Sorry, dear