Sith Force Tournament

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not fond of double standards. I'm a Sidious fanboy and Sidious is a 'god of SW!!1!' because I correctly proclaim him to be the pinnacle of Sithdom... yet you, who has absolutely no evidence that Revan is anything approaching uber will state that you believe him to be stronger?

Let's be honest here. At least I have evidence. Which makes my arguments... many, many, many times better than yours. 😉

Edit: Yeah, forgot about Ragnos, too. Gotta love Ancient Sith fanboys... they provide great entertainment. For the record, there is a timeframe that attaches to Palpatine "...most powerful Sith ever" or "most powerful Sith in history" > a statement that applies for Ragnos.

Revan has many feats which are impressive, and there are many characters who imply he has great power. Ragnos is considered godlike by all of his era in a time when the Sith were prospering and the principals of natural selection were in full effect. Is this conclusive? No, but Im not fond of double standards either and your arguments are no more conclusive.

And I already addressed the timeframe issue to LS.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Revan has many feats which are impressive, and there are many characters who imply he has great power. Ragnos is considered godlike by all of his era in a time when the Sith were prospering and the principals of natural selection were in full effect. Is this conclusive? No, but Im not fond of double standards either and your arguments are no more conclusive.

And I already addressed the timeframe issue to LS.

Moreover, quantify Revan's feats. Impressive? Yes. Any direct and actual canon on them? And when was Ragnos considered even REMOTELY 'Godlike?' He kept guard by having a loyal cadre and playing factions against one another

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B]Oh, right, because you say so, of course? The omniscient narrator has NO right to state a fact when the fact ISN'T from Palpatine's POV-killing your point. Moreover, YEAH his knowledge is complete. He kind of has access to all their spirits and knowledge. Canon, sorry.

It doesnt matter if it isnt from Palpatines POV. Once again, the 'omniscient narrator' is limited to the knowledge of the characters. This is how fiction novels operate, I already supplied a link to you that explains it all very clearly and you still miss the point. And discovering the knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt going to tell him anything about the power levels of the ancient Sith, which is the most relevent point.

Except the whole 'And now he is dead' and the most powerful quote is in PTAST TENSE

Use the whole quote or not at all. This is dishonesty by omission.

I dont remember the entire quote off hand but it hardly matters whether it is in past tense or not, for reasons I explained above.

Do explain the whole 'now he's dead and two travellers' arrive thing

What is there to explain?

Except the quote you use only covers up to Ragnos's time.

Nope, not when its told by the narrator. He is not part of the universe and so not part of the timeline. And if he isnt limited to knowledge of his characters like your faulty reasoning suggests, than he is capable of making objective observations on the whole mythos.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
It doesnt matter if it isnt from Palpatines POV. Once again, the 'omniscient narrator' is limited to the knowledge of the characters. This is how fiction novels operate, I already supplied a link to you that explains it all very clearly and you still miss the point. And discovering the knowledge of the ancient Sith isnt going to tell him anything about the power levels of the ancient Sith, which is the most relevent point.

A statement being in past tense is irrelevent when told by an omniscient narrator, as the narrator(according to your logic) has knowledge of the entire mythos and timeline and the narrator himself is outside the actual timeline.

I dont remember the entire quote off hand but it hardly matters whether it is in past tense or not, for reasons I explained above.

What is there to explain?

Nope, not when its told by the narrator.

He is not part of the universe and so not part of the timeline. And if he isnt limited to knowledge of his characters like your faulty reasoning suggests, than he is capable of making objective observations on the whole mythos. [/B]

Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Superspeed?' She uses it in a heartbeat when Sarro takes a quick look behind him.

Yes. It was one-on-one and she was given that extra instant.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, there's a point where Sarro is not attacking or doing anything but showboating. He rears up, grins and twirls his saber before leaping leaping forward after Johun leaves. Zannah just readies herself.
That's what we call 'time to use it.' This'd take more time than quickly looking behind you. And quite frankly, I doubt Zannah's assertion that Sarro's training leaves him vulnerable to her other forms of attack. She knows precisely nothing of Sarro's training or ability beyond sabers

Right. Because Sarro is incapable of stop showing off and hacking her into pieces once he sees her going something else besides being ready for the duel?

Look, this is how a Zannah vs. Vader fight would go:

Zannah opens with making herself invisible and hiding her Force signature, rendering Vader's massive raw Force power useless. Now, let's assume that Vader can resist an attack that he's never even faced before. Zannah uses her fear ability. Vader takes a split second, or several seconds, attempting to combat it. During which time his Force shielding is reduced to crap - Zannah Force Crushes his life support box, the end.

Perfectly plausible.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Frankly? No. No, I won't let my irritation of them go so long as they remain the awful, 1-D characters they are with nothing more than talentless hacks who wouldn't know subtlety unless it hit them in the face writing about them substituting power ups and action scenes for 'character' and having a legion of people clamoring on about them like they're the best thing ever.

And frankly, I'll hold a special little grudge against Bane because he bordered on actually interesting in Jedi vs. Sith, as did the entire setting and scenario. With the exception of Kopecz, Karpyshyn managed to screw up the entire era, situation and characters to the point where they ceased to be even SLIGHTLY interesting with his "Screw continuity, I'm an ARTISTE!" attitude.

In the Force, Zannah's shown us little beyond using Sith sorcery on an exhausted, distracted opponent and a Chiss terrorist and a spell of concealment. As far as available power goes, Vader takes her without much trouble.

At least until the third Bane novel has her annihilating stars for disrupting her nap.

One dimensional? That would be Darth Sidious. He's completely boring, egotistical, and evil...all of which is extremely predictable. At least Bane was devastated when he learned that he unintentionally killed his own father - who deserved it, mind you. Gets cut off from the Dark Side from an entire month because he felt guilty over killing someone else, goes through a whole range of other emotions...His character is far more interesting in PoD than anything Sidious or Vader display. Now, in RoT - it seemed like he was trying too hard to be evil. But perhaps DK will correct that in his third novel.

@ LS
Palpatine once went to Korriban with Jeng Droga, he told him to stay on the ship or something, and went to to the Valley of the Dark Lords.
He almost instantly demanded knowledge of the darkside, and they(the spirits of the Dark Lords) cowed him and Jeng Droga, sensing his mater was in danger, saved his life from the specter of the Sith Lords.

Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, Palpatine, now Emperor of the Galactic Empire and the ruling Dark Lord of the Sith, visited the tombs of the ancient Sith Lords on Korriban that were still haunted by the ghosts of the long deceased Sith. He wanted to gain further knowledge of the dark side, but his demands only enraged the mummified Sith. Wounded and cowed, he was rescued by Jeng Droga and had to recover from the assault in a bacta tank on Imperial Center.

At no point were the Sith ghost under his control, heck, they damn near killed him. It was only because of(oddly enough it seems that his dark jedi assistants were extremely loyal) Droga that he survived at all. His arrogance nearly cost him his life.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
@ LS
Palpatine once went to Korriban with Jeng Droga, he told him to stay on the ship or something, and went to to the Valley of the Dark Lords.
He almost instantly demanded knowledge of the darkside, and they(the spirits of the Dark Lords) cowed him and Jeng Droga, sensing his mater was in danger, saved his life from the specter of the Sith Lords.

Shortly after the Battle of Yavin, Palpatine, now Emperor of the Galactic Empire and the ruling Dark Lord of the Sith, visited the tombs of the ancient Sith Lords on Korriban that were still haunted by the ghosts of the long deceased Sith. He wanted to gain further knowledge of the dark side, but his demands only enraged the mummified Sith. Wounded and cowed, he was rescued by Jeng Droga and had to recover from the assault in a bacta tank on Imperial Center.

At no point were the Sith ghost under his control, heck, they damn near killed him. It was only because of(oddly enough it seems that his dark jedi assistants were extremely loyal) Droga that he survived at all. His arrogance nearly cost him his life.

This is a good post. 👆

Originally posted by Enyalus

Yes. It was one-on-one and she was given that extra instant.

Right. Because Sarro is incapable of stop showing off and hacking her into pieces once he sees her going something else besides being ready for the duel?

Look, this is how a Zannah vs. Vader fight would go:

Zannah opens with making herself invisible and hiding her Force signature, rendering Vader's massive raw Force power useless.

This usually doesn't work if they're looking right at you...and can still sense you if they're looking

Now, let's assume that Vader can resist an attack that he's never even faced before. Zannah uses her fear ability.

Vader takes a split second, or several seconds, attempting to combat it. During which time his Force shielding is reduced to crap - Zannah Force Crushes his life support box, the end.

Perfectly plausible.

One dimensional? That would be Darth Sidious. He's completely boring, egotistical, and evil...all of which is extremely predictable. At least Bane was devastated when he learned that he unintentionally killed his own father - who deserved it, mind you.

Gets cut off from the Dark Side from an entire month because he felt guilty over killing someone else, goes through a whole range of other emotions...His character is far more interesting in PoD than anything Sidious or Vader display.

Now, in RoT - it seemed like he was trying too hard to be evil. But perhaps DK will correct that in his third novel. [/B]

I doubt it.

I'd prefer a character who is virtually perfect and shows off just about every range of emotion, etc, as opposed to someone like Palpatine who is a perfect stereotype of the bad "bad guy." At least Bane is a charming villian. Palpatine, you just want to smack.

There's nothing wrong with Drew's writing. His character development is done well, PoD had a great plot, his battle scenes are exceptional, his knowledge of the SW universe is good (except the one slip about Sirak using Vaapad).

Originally posted by Enyalus
This is a good post. 👆

The main reason I said that is that LS was getting a bit ridiculous, in no way can Ragnos' power be argued. Palpatine may have known a shitload more than most, but he

1.Can only used that which is of the darkside or neutral.

2.Doesn't use or show the usefulness of this knowledge base during battle, which means

a. Most of it isn't that useful anyways.

b. He can't use it or apply it to battle.

c. He's to arrogant to try, and so wouldn't do it anyways.

d. Using some of these (I.e The Fallanasi techniques) would detrimental in battle.

or e. He's not as ZOMGTEHUBURRPWNZAR as he's made out to be.

3. He, like Dooku who preferred sabers when he could force rape enemies, is too arrogant and sure of himself to use the best of these.

@ Enyalus
Thank you.

Marka Ragnos has more Force knowledge than Darth Sidious. This is a canon fact.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd prefer a character who is virtually perfect and shows off just about every range of emotion, etc, as opposed to someone like Palpatine who is a perfect stereotype of the bad "bad guy." At least Bane is a charming villian. Palpatine, you just want to smack.

There's nothing wrong with Drew's writing. His character development is done well, PoD had a great plot, his battle scenes are exceptional, his knowledge of the SW universe is good (except the one slip about Sirak using Vaapad).

And there's LOTS wrong with Drew's writing. And 'his knowledge of the SW universe is good?' Are you aware of how much continuity he wrecked and then essentially said 'Screw it's MY story!'
And most of the story isn't HIS. It was established well beforehand. His battle scenes...ok, he writes good action.

Drew's prose is laughably bad. He constantly contradicts stuff well established-want a LIST? Drew didn't even READ Jedi vs. Sith except for a brief summary.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Marka Ragnos has more Force knowledge than Darth Sidious. This is a canon fact.

....eh? Based on?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Marka Ragnos has more Force knowledge than Darth Sidious. This is a canon fact.

Originally posted by DarkSerpent
What?

The Dark Side Sourcebook...which, so a birdy tells me, is N-canon when they mention the knowledge stuff. So if that's true, meh.

I can read the comic Your quote is on the Dark Horse website. You're the one missing the point here. The narrator, with knowledge of all Sw history says Palpatine>Any other Sith. Ever. Case closed.

Sigh, the narrator does *not* have knowledge of all Sw history, he is limited to the knowledge of the characters. Im tired of repeating myself. HERE
Provide some evidence that your sources operate under different rules, otherwise this is the standard form that fiction novels operate under as notated by the article.

And 'discovering all the knowledge' of the Ancients and having control of their spirits means nothing to knowing their power? Please.

He didnt control their spirits. And to sense an individuals power level he would have to see them in the flesh. Ghosts dont cut it. Clearly that is impossible by Palpatines era.

Perhaps you don't get it. They're saying he used to be the most powerful of the Empire. Now he's dead and events are unfolding. That means it means nothing to the very second after he dies. the narrator is describing events that have already occurred and setting the stage. If the narrator said "The most powerful Sith who had ever lived" in a source that included a comprehensive history, you'd have a point

Okay here is the exact quote as requested. "Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith -- the most powerful of the most powerful. But now he is dead. And two innocent hyperspace explorers, Gav and Jori Daragon, may follow suit if they get caught between the factions fighting to fill the Dark Lord void."

Now what am I not getting? Ragnos is still stated as the most powerful of the most powerful. That he is dead is irrelevent, the quote can be in the past tense and still apply to the future because according to your reasoning the narrator is omniscient to the whole mythos, and he is outside the timeline. Your argument is rather confused.

When it specifies the unfolding events, it does matter. Take it in context.

See above.

That Ragnos is dead? That it only applies to what has already transpired and not what will?

See above.

The narrator could say "Darth Bane is the most powerful Sith" in Path of Destruction. That wouldn't apply to anything afterwards.

Nope, actually it would if the narrator(according to you) has omniscient knowledge of the entire mythos as opposed to just the characters. Stop treating the narrator like he is a part of the timeline.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sigh, the narrator does *not* have knowledge of all Sw history, he is limited to the knowledge of the characters. Im tired of repeating myself. HERE
Provide some evidence that your sources operate under different rules, otherwise this is the standard form that fiction novels operate under as notated by the article.

Nope, actually it would if the narrator(according to you) has omniscient knowledge of the entire mythos as opposed to just the characters. Stop treating the narrator like he is a part of the timeline.

Great Vengeance

Shut the hell up, palpatine IS the number one sith lord, live with it or simply die with it.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End(audio book i believe, i got this from nikkolas but hes banned now), one of the Ancient Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

Now, with so many sources and so much more to go, canon >>>>>>>> your ass.

Now shut up you kotor hardcore fanwanker.

That was an impressive list, and while I do not disagree, just for my own curiosity, where did you get the final quote?

From gideon who took it out from one of the sources. Remember, he is far more credible than almost anybody on KMC.