MJJ & Jamie Braddock VS Omega Mutants

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is a debate forum, and when things are open to interpretation we all debate,
but when something is clear cut, and then it's presented,
and the person it's presented to continues to deny what we all know because we see it,
that's called intransigence.

You made false claims, I gave you the benefit of the ignorant doubt,
you presented the facts, you came back again with the same false claim,
that's a lie.

Besides the two other lies.

You're lying cause what else can you do?

You can't present anything that makes Phoenix consequential here vs these two.

You know Phoenix hasn't done shit that compares,
so you demean the feats of the Phoenix's opponents,
it's an old ploy that's been resinating since 2005,
you learned well from the king but you ain't near as good at it yet.

😆 😆
since i learned from the king, indeed. I have plenlty that makes Phoenix consequential, such as the holes in your logic about the wonders of teleportation, or the fact that you spout on and on about them making and becomeing universes when she amputates those and removes them from existence. so you pull that MJJ is more powerful than Merlin, but where is your proof that merlin is more powerful than the Phoenix, especially when his master was after the power he has until said master saw the Phoenix.

^

those scans show us that merlin/roma were manipulating the 'jaspers affair' - but certainly don't imply that they manipulate "everything" which happens to excalibur [like you said]. 😛

meh, i'm just nitpicking/busting your chops at this point, mr m. just board i guess lol.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Still lying.

I already addressed that, I even posted the scans of the feat.

Stop lying dude, you're making an ass of yourself.

More lies, I never said anyone needed to warp an entire reality to do anything.

I clearly conveyed what took place on panel,
[b]Jamie warped the WHR.

stoned

Yet another lie.

I never said what Psi-Lord did was meaningless,
I said it wouldn't help him one bit against these two (Jaspers and Jamie)

Nice try.

I guess I don't have to point out when you lied,
cause you're lying as we go long.

Pretty soon you'll warp into ... liar [/B]

Once again with word play on your part, when i mentioned the feat it was a joke anyway, and you answered by saying what would it do to Jaspers or something to that effect, the manner in which you responded seems as though said feat would be meaningless not a lie or even a bit untrue what is a lie is what you said happened in issue 125 though 😱 anymore attempts at dissecting my post and then brandishing them as lies or are you done resorting to your usual tactics involving word play and misdirection? like me making a sarcastic comment based on how you say reality warping works, you try to make it seem as if I made a claim about Franklin when I was just regurgitating the same nonsense you said to qualify a teleportation as the warping of an entire realm using a different character to show you how utterly ridiculous your claim about warping the entire WHR is.

Originally posted by LordKaos

A universal power performing an omniversal feat

Unbelievable, still lying?

Omniversal feat my ass.

Phoenix was only able to project that Tower VIA the interface alignment.

nice try ...

Originally posted by LordKaos

The only thing that increased about Jamies power was the range, show me where it says now he can manipulate intangible reality due to this power increase, it was a weakness of his so it should be note worthy if he overcame it.

I've been showing everything, and it's made no difference to your intransigence,
why should I'll be wasting my time
while all you do is yap, yap, yap.

Originally posted by LordKaos

You have nothing but a laugh for the betsy being manipulated issue (not a surprised)

Originally posted by LordKaos

Rachel seeing through the false reality is relevant simply because it was apparently beyond Jamies power to keep Betsy just as perceptive, if he had truly been so powerful as to make her immune to such tampering then she would have not needed Rachel to show her.

Xorn. 😂

Again, I can pop up low showings, actually, the Xorn case is canon.
Confirmed in 3 bios.

Originally posted by LordKaos

That's you using hyperbole to make a single warp in some undisclosed location look like it's an entire universe, when it was a city as shown when it vanished. when he created this universe, where did he put it. All space in the omiverse has something in it already, so he must have gone outside the omniverse to do that, since that's the only way to create a universe where there is already a universe without overwriting or destroying the previous one, sounds more like a pocket of reality to me.

On Panel the alternate Reality Excalibur was in disappeared.

Jamie's bio clearly tells us he created MOST of that Universe.

Originally posted by LordKaos

no i did not see jamie warping the white hot room and not in context that you are claiming he did, i saw him use his power to warp reality to perform a teleportation, you have once again exaggerated a scan to make your man look bigger than ever, but if the Phoenix ain't
that big to begin with why go through all the trouble to prove it, shouldn't it be obvious?

jamie warped the WHR, and everyone unbiased eye knows it.

Originally posted by LordKaos

For a limited time? and what time limit is that? the time limit was placed on the life span of the universe not the power of the Phoenix, it would have died if she did nothing. The universe is made up of atoms and such therefore your splitting hairs time space, death and all the others are like you said concepts and the white phoenix is beyond them, she cannot be claimed by death or oblivion as her role is to always be reborn after incubating in her own afterlife, she can reach back in time as she pleases, and exist outside of space your point being what exactly. And when mention of the other two and their universal creating powers have occurred there has been no mention of them having control over any of these concepts either only physical occurrences. you keep saying she has to be in the white room, but I'll say again you cannot amputate something without taking it away from the whole of what it is, more failed attempts by you to downplay an irrefutable feat.

Jean herself states this after the feat:

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds,

not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

............................................................................

And evidently it ain't even easy for the poor girl! 🙂

............................................................................

Confirmed by her own 2008 bio ... to be control on an atomic scale:

yawn

Phoenix has absolutely no power over Time/Space or any of the Concepts.

Time traveling is NOT controlling time dogs. 😂

And Time/Space and the other Concepts are NOT made of atoms either.

I only caught a glimpse I said she was beyond the concepts, who cares how hard it is she did it, and it was only confusing in the beginning once the consciousness showed her the way she was ok.
jamie warped reality to teleport people nothing more, if anybody with unbiased eyes could see it then why hadn't anybody on here mentioned it until you brought up certainly you aren't saying you're the only person who is not biased?
Ok so I lied because I said he didn't create a universe, but now you say he created most of it, so then I was right he didn't create a universe only most of one. Which is where your baby universe theory can come into play, I would also surmise that the parts he couldn't make are the ones you claim the Phoenix can't control, most of the universe being the physical as the other aspects are not quantifiable, and still I say pocket universe.
Now you have lied again obliterated and shattered not the same things actually nowhere near the same thing unless your a fan of hyperbole 😉 Obliterate would mean it was wiped from existence, or at the very least made into some unrecognizable form, neither happened to the Phoenix.
And I guess I could see how it is funny that it was xorn, the same way I can see how funny it was to see MJJ one shotted by Brian after being merged with the fury, or how the omnipotent Jamie was helpless, captured and bound by the other less powerful forsaken, of the fact that is meat for the being that calls itself the polar opposite of the Phoenix.
It would take omniversal power to project the lighthouse in every realm in the omniverse, so if I have a million dollars to build a million dollar house and am given the chance to build these houses everywhere all I need is a million dollars still?

Just a thread friends

IMO, Jaspers/Jaime win

Originally posted by LordKaos

since i learned from the king, indeed. I have plenlty that makes Phoenix consequential, such as the holes in your logic about the wonders of teleportation

Originally posted by LordKaos

or the fact that you spout on and on about them making and becomeing universes when she amputates those and removes them from existence.

It was Scott's decision that erased reality 15104 from existence, NOT Jean.

Jean forced Scott's decision, so she was indirectly involved,
but the power to create and nullify 15104, was always in Scott's mind/decision.

Originally posted by LordKaos

so you pull that MJJ is more powerful than Merlin

yawn

Originally posted by LordKaos

but where is your proof that merlin is more powerful than the Phoenix,

Let me know when Phoenix has power over the life-Force of the Omniverse.

.....................................................................................................

Let me know when Phoenix can create something like the Starlight Citedel,
which can obliterate entire UniverseS:

.....................................................................................................

And also, the Starlight Citedel is connected to every Universe in the Omniverse:

.....................................................................................................

Let me know when Phoenix creates from scratch a Reality like Otherworld,
which is a pan-dimensional Actuality.

.....................................................................................................

Respect the Supreme Omniversal Guardian dogs!

.....................................................................................................

As we know, Merlyn was the Marvel "Supreme Omniversal Guardian"

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these are not powers they are gadgets and machines you speak of, at that moment saturnyne is more powerful than merlin. it only mentions him creating the corps and apparently only through the multiverse. established has many definitions the first meaning to institute or make firm, it can mean to create but why use the word create and establish in the same dialog unless you wanted to make a distinction between the two, he could have easily said created otherplace but he didn't and why did he do any of it? to find Necrom, and what did he do when Necrom came back? pretend to be dead, yes he is indeed a god among gods if god used crystals and weapons instead of his own power which is what we are talking about I have yet to see his power be anywhere near what you claim, and I'm not talking about his power of influence over machines and corps.

Originally posted by LordKaos

I only caught a glimpse I said she was beyond the concepts

Originally posted by LordKaos

who cares how hard it is she did it,
and it was only confusing in the beginning
once the consciousness showed her the way she was ok.

Meh, then Jamie comes and makes his house.

Over.

Originally posted by LordKaos

jamie warped reality to teleport people nothing more, if anybody with unbiased eyes could see it then why hadn't anybody on here mentioned it until you brought up certainly you aren't saying you're the only person who is not biased?

Jamie warped the WHR.

Originally posted by LordKaos

Ok so I lied because I said he didn't create a universe, but now you say he created most of it, so then I was right he didn't create a universe only most of one. Which is where your baby universe theory can come into play, I would also surmise that the parts he couldn't make are the ones you claim the Phoenix can't control, most of the universe being the physical as the other aspects are not quantifiable, and still I say pocket universe.

No where is it stated that Jamie created any "baby" universe.

You summation concerning what part os that Universe he created
are also unsupported speculations.

Jamie controls Reality, (Time/Space and all in-between)
unlike Phoenix who only controls atoms.

Pocket Universe?

Two lies in one quote, I see you're trying to out do yourself in bull shit

Originally posted by LordKaos

Now you have lied again obliterated and shattered not the same things actually nowhere near the same thing unless your a fan of hyperbole Obliterate would mean it was wiped from existence, or at the very least made into some unrecognizable form, neither happened to the Phoenix.
And I guess I could see how it is funny that it was xorn

Planetary EMP,
which evidently is enough to shatter the almighty PF! 🙂

......................................................................................

Xorn, killing Jean Grey ... and exploding the actual Phoenix Force itself!

......................................................................................

On Panel:

......................................................................................

Beast remembers:

......................................................................................

Bio:

......................................................................................

(From the Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005)

"Jean Grey was Killed by an Electromagnetic Pulse,

this shattered the Force into Billions of PIECES"

......................................................................................

(from WC Phoenix - Jean Grey's official 2008 bio)

"Jean opposed faux Magneto but was killed by a lethal EMP
that shattered the Phoenix Force into Billions of pieces"

......................................................................................

This incident involving Xorn & the Phoenix Force
was actually recalled by the embodiment of the Phoenix Force itself in "Endsong"

"I thought I was Dead, in a Billion Billion pieces"

Originally posted by guy222
Just a thread friends

IMO, Jaspers/Jaime win

I know it's just a thread, but pitting several (Jean, Vulcan, Mr. M and Franklin) omega level mutants and then giving them full potential (meaning they are all on or near the level of WP) against two crazys who warp reality is not a cut and dry battle especially for the two, one who can create most of a universe but at the same time has trouble warping intangibles and another who was called an omniversal threat only by extrapolation as he has never done anything on or close to that scale.

Originally posted by LordKaos

the same way I can see how funny
it was to see MJJ one shotted by Brian after being merged with the fury

Jaspers had just come back from the dead,
they were re-introducing him in that issue,
the writer got em out of the way quickly, that was to be a Jaspers centered story.

Love how you leave out Jaspers returning in "Die by the Sword"
where he erased a near-Omniversal infinite amount of Captain Britains
with a wave of his hand.

Jaspers was in another realm,
he took off to assimilate what had just happened to him,
that's how "Die by the Sword" begins,
bet ya didn't know that, did ya.

Originally posted by LordKaos

or how the omnipotent Jamie was helpless,
captured and bound by the other less powerful forsaken,
of the fact that is meat for the being that calls itself the polar opposite of the Phoenix.

Jamie manipulated that event silly boy, in order to get Betsy to be the hero.

Good lord do you even read these issue, or is it all Wiki-pedia regurgitation here?

Originally posted by LordKaos

It would take omniversal power to project the lighthouse in every realm in the omniverse, so if I have a million dollars to build a million dollar house and am given the chance to build these houses everywhere all I need is a million dollars still?

The interface alignment allows simultaneous existence across the realities.

Any average matter manipulator could've done the same crap VIA the alignment.

her amputating universes was used only to counter you using the creation of a universe to prove superiority
wrong jamie teleported via reality warping
the fact of the Phoenix being shattered was not refuted it was the use of the word obliterated, proving that you have a flare for exaggeration.
yeah he manipulated it the same way Merlin manipulated Excalibur, poorly. more accusations on lies when it was your lie that he created a universe that stared that part of the debate in the first place. what parts of the univeres did he create and what parts did he not create? you don't know so then what you call lies becomes supposition as there is no answer, it's your theory versus mine, we know that as a reality manipulator he can control matter and energy never once saw him bend time or even utilize it artfully we can assume he can't grab hold of it since back then intangible things were beyond his grasp
all else is more rhetoric, conjecture and above all crap.

Originally posted by LordKaos

these are not powers they are gadgets and machines you speak of

Also, I didn't know the Starlight Citedel, which is an Omniversal Nexus,
is a machine.

I also didn't know that the pan-dimensional Actuality Otherworld, was a machine.

Originally posted by LordKaos

at that moment saturnyne is more powerful than merlin.

Originally posted by LordKaos

it only mentions him creating the corps and apparently only through the multiverse.

Again, that story take place a very long time ago,
it was a Multiverse back then, it has expanded.

Merlyn was the Supreme Omniversal Guardian, not Multiversal:

And the Corps are an Omniversal organization,
and Merlyn created Otherworld and the Starlight Citedel,
and everything else I mentioned.

Originally posted by LordKaos

established has many definitions the first meaning to institute or make firm,
it can mean to create but why use the word create and establish in the same dialog unless you wanted to make a distinction between the two, he could have easily said created otherplace but he didn't

Stick to the lies.

Originally posted by LordKaos

yes he is indeed a god among gods if god used crystals and weapons instead of his own power which is what we are talking about I have yet to see his power be anywhere near what you claim, and I'm not talking about his power of influence over machines and corps.

he created the Starlight Citadel ... an Omniversal Nexus that can obliterate Universes.

He created the Celestial Nullifier .. can erase any Universe in the Omniverse.

He's played/manipulated the Multiverse from one of his chess boards,
while he had numerous others boards floating around his realm.

"we are all pawns of the gods"

Originally posted by LordKaos

I know it's just a thread, but pitting several (Jean, Vulcan, Mr. M and Franklin) omega level mutants and then giving them full potential (meaning they are all on or near the level of WP)

against two crazys who warp reality is not a cut and dry battle especially for the two,
one who can create most of a universe but at the same time has trouble warping intangibles

Jamie's power increased and that is no longer a limitation.

Originally posted by LordKaos

and another who was called an omniversal threat
only by extrapolation as he has never done anything on or close to that scale.

How about becoming the 616 Reality.

How about his weaker counter-part (238)
warping an entire Universe more than any other Universe has ever been warped in history.
(props to Galan on this find)

How about collapsing the entire Omniverse in a possible alternate future.

How about nearly destroying the Omniverse just last year:

.....................................................................................................

Official Marvel Handbook clip - 2008 - Exiles BIO ...

"Exiles teamed with Excalibur,
to stop Jaspers & the Fury from destroying the Omniverse"

.....................................................................................................

swank ... This is getting boring.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Again, just like the Phoenix projected the Tower
VIA the interface alignment through the Multiverse,
not the Omniverse, yet I see you trying to give Phoenix credit for the more.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go deal with real people on this side of the omniverse.
Again, that story take place a very long time ago,
it was a Multiverse back then, it has expanded.

Originally posted by LordKaos

her amputating universes was used only to counter you using the creation of a universe to prove superiority

Phoenix and her team get curbstomped here in every way.

Originally posted by LordKaos

wrong jamie teleported via reality warping

jamie warped the WHR.

Originally posted by LordKaos

the fact of the Phoenix being shattered was not refuted it was the use of the word obliterated, proving that you have a flare for exaggeration.

So I'll use verbatim: (Phoenix Force's own words)

"I though I was dead, in a Billion Billion pieces

ooh .. big freakin difference, the Force was stomped ridiculously no matter the term.

Originally posted by LordKaos

yeah he manipulated it the same way Merlin manipulated Excalibur, poorly. more accusations on lies when it was your lie that he created a universe that stared that part of the debate in the first place.

I never said Jamie created an entire Universe, I said he has controlled entire Universes,
and I said he created MOST of one.

Originally posted by LordKaos

what parts of the univeres did he create and what parts did he not create? you don't know so then what you call lies becomes supposition as there is no answer, it's your theory versus mine

Jamie is a reality warper, not limited to atoms like the Phoenix chump.

So, it's for certain that he at-least was involved in the time/space aspects of that Universe.

Dude, the Universe didn't return to normal, or anything of the sort,
MOST of that Universe ... disappeared.

That means that a majority of it's Time-Space and Coceptuatlities were nullified.

Originally posted by LordKaos

we know that as a reality manipulator he can control matter and energy
never once saw him bend time or even utilize it artfully

Originally posted by LordKaos

we can assume he can't grab hold of it
since back then intangible things were beyond his grasp

Here's Kitty, in her phased state, getting the shit warped out of her:

Awaiting the next excuse.

Originally posted by LordKaos

all else is more rhetoric, conjecture and above all crap.

Originally posted by LordKaos

still doesn't make you wrong calling the Phoenix a universal power

That's yall two or three Phoenix-heads that do that.

Originally posted by LordKaos

nor does it not take away from the fact that Merlin and Roma
have are both from race that have powers and use tech

Originally posted by LordKaos

you can say he built all of that with his power just as easy
as I can say he used tech from his homeworld, i won't but I could

The simple fact is that Merlyn created all things in Otherworld.

Unless you have on panel or bio proff that disputes that, leave it alone.

Originally posted by LordKaos

and I can still sit back and relish in the fact
that you still have not showed him use any power

Originally posted by LordKaos

what you have shown is that after matering the matrix
he establishe otherworld and the corps
(who are powered by the friction between dimensions not merlin himself)

Do you know what that is? 😂

That's the Energy Matrix Merlyn merged with:

Next ...

MJJ solos. Anyone who disagrees will be destroyed.

Not all of the team is even Omega Mutants.

Hell, one of them isn't even a Mutant. 😐

Anyway, either one on team 1 solo.

Team FTW, minus the non-mutants and the non-omegas (I only counted the omegas) if they are at their full potential which is limitless they win, four beings at WP level against two powerful alphas with the power of conjecture I pick the omegas, say what you want about what the Phoenix can't do she ain't the only one fighting and this thread only turned into a phoenix vs whoever thread because somebody saw the Phoenix and decided hey if I make it all about what she can't do everyone will ignore the fact that the others have been given their full potential in this fight, a full powered franklin can do whatever these two can do he has done more as a kid, omegas can't be killed as far as we have seen so how do they loose?