Rules & debating discussion thread.

Originally posted by Starscream M
2 points:

1) Good rules are rules that are simple and clear. If you make rules that are too complex and convoluted, then people won't understand or follow them.

2) Guys, debating comics isn't a science. We shouldn't reduce it to such. Part of the fun of debating comics is approaching it from different perspectives and reaching different outcomes. We don't have to enforce some kind of group think...that would result in completely mechanical debates with monotonous results.

I agree with Digi that we shouldn't tell people how they should debate. Sure we can set some general guidelines, but everyone should be allowed their freedom to voice their opinions (as long as its not blatant flame or trolling). Nobody is forcing anyone to read other's opinions, if you don't like it, just ignore it.

As a mod, I'm bombarded with PMs and reports. I have a better idea of the problems. Who said complex rules? If you read the first page of the thread then you would have seen the word tweaked in bold.

Debating isn't the problem. It's the fact that there are people arguing on panel feats versus full potential due to power set. The first page explaines this.

Digi agrees that the rules need to be tweaked.

Originally posted by Starscream M
also, this is a question for Bada:

What is the purpose of closing threads?

I mean good threads, not spite threads. For example, if there is a Superman vs Thor thread...it's obviously going to draw a lot of attention. Now some people get out of hand and may flame or bash. So why not warn (or temp ban) those people who are ruining the thread? When you close a thread, it punishes everyone, including those who have done nothing wrong and would've liked to genuinely participate in discussion. It just seems to me lately that a lot of threads have been closed just because a few people get out of hand, and rather then those people getting punished, the thread just gets closed...which ends discussion on some popular topics.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Why?

Is anyone on KMC forced to visit a thread?

If anyone is offended by what's going on in a thread, could they just not ignore it?

Originally posted by Starscream M
but why not warn or temp ban those people who say bs?

why close a thread...which punishes those people who are debating in good faith?

Originally posted by darthgoober
The Boyscout factor should definitely fall into the CIS category and most of the time it should take precedence over the instance of going all out IMO.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Personally I see enough problems in the forums people usually leave out context when debating sometimes its just people trolling but Bada has been quick to close down threads that have gone sour for whatever reason the rules do need to be looked over and edited so people dont get so frustrated with horrible threads.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I dont' like people assuming a character can do something because they think it's in the characters power set. And I don't like people requiring someone prove a negative when they haven't proven the opposite. For instance, people who are asking us to prove that surfer loses his speed while off the board. That is ridiculous. Why wont' they just prove that he keeps it?

Originally posted by psycho gundam

anyway, anyone who makes a claim regarding powersets being used in uncommon fashions should prove it with a scan or something.

for instance, the silver surfer stated that he could create point singularities within his opponents on a whim, though he hasn't done so, it is elementary for him thus his casual statement of it. of coarse he refrains from it cause it's an instakill and he tries his best not to take sentient lives but the ability is still there.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
^how ironic

anyway, anyone who makes a claim regarding powersets being used in uncommon fashions should prove it with a scan or something.

for instance, the silver surfer stated that he could create point singularities within his opponents on a whim, though he hasn't done so, it is elementary for him thus his casual statement of it. of coarse he refrains from it cause it's an instakill and he tries his best not to take sentient lives but the ability is still there.

Exactly. The comics we are debating should be the supreme evidence used barring PIS instances. No form of inference can replace that. This especially occurs when we see people( i wont name anyone but the culprits are obvious) trying to argue tactics for a character which they should technically be able to do but have never actually shown it to be within their abilities in that particular context. Speed especially is an issue which i think should definitely be based on their shoings in comics and not inference.

Like in the recent wonderwomanvs Ss h2h thread. There were many claims that Wondy is so fast that SS wont be able to land a hit on her. Meanwhile nobody even came close to providng a credible scan showing her displaying this sort of speed in a context similar to how she would be fighting SS. HOw then can it be claimed that she will be capable of something which she has been incapable of in comics? At best would it not be highly out of character?

Note the difference between this and arguments that request for exact replications of the situation. For instance, if i want to determine whther thanos can withstand a ram from superman, I dont need to receive a scan of thanos resisting the exact same type of ram. What i do need however is thanos resisting a physical attack that generates equal or more force than supermans ram.

Also the whole "CIS" and "fight to the best of their ability" part of the rule needs to be clearly defined. Because they directly contradict each other. For instance alot of people use the superman speedblitz tactic alot for an instant win, and though it is within his abilities his CIS would cause him NOT to use it as an opening tactic.

On the other hand though, I agree with those ho say that u cant actually tell people how to debate. The different perspectives that people bring in are what makes the forum interesting. But there are definitely some issues that i think need to be definitvely addressed

Originally posted by Badabing
As a mod, I'm bombarded with PMs and reports. I have a better idea of the problems. Who said complex rules? If you read the first page of the thread then you would have seen the word tweaked in bold.

Debating isn't the problem. It's the fact that there are people arguing on panel feats versus full potential due to power set. The first page explaines this.

Digi agrees that the rules need to be tweaked. Threads are closed for a variety of reasons. Too much trouble is the main reason. Starscream, you're not adding anything to the topic at hand and using this thread as a platform to raise questions of points which have been addressed before. If you can't discuss the topic then don't post in this thread. Thanks. Well guys, I hope that we all can make some progress in these areas.

1. In regards to the full-potential vs on panel: I thought it was understood that unless stated otherwise (ie bloodlust), characters don't fight in 'full-potential' but rather in character. At least that was my understanding.

2. Bada, don't be so defensive. I wasn't criticizing you, merely asking about your thread closing policy. I understand if it was off-topic, and I will not comment on it any further.

3. And the rules are complex...maybe not for you and me (or others who have been on KMC for so long). but they are for many newcomers to KMC, who the rules are mainly written for anyways.

Originally posted by ultimatethor

Also the whole "CIS" and "fight to the best of their ability" part of the rule needs to be clearly defined.

Agreed.

I think that CIS must be clearly defined as it presents more inconsistency than PIS often does.

On KMC battles, is the default that characters fight 'in character' or they fight 'to the full extent of their abilities'?

Because in comics, rarely do characters EVER fight to the full extent of their abilities.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Agreed.

I think that CIS must be clearly defined as it presents more inconsistency than PIS often does.

On KMC battles, is the default that characters fight 'in character' or they fight 'to the full extent of their abilities'?

Because in comics, rarely do characters EVER fight to the full extent of their abilities.

On KMC the characters fight at their best. Unless stated other wise by OP. But some people always ignore this rule. They will use them as jobbing and low balling feats.

Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
On KMC the characters fight at their best.

Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, but do they fight in character? ie..will a guy who never kills use a killing attack?

Both....

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
Both....

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

I want to draw out a concern.

Lately, well cant actually say lately but for some time. Members have incline to deduce said feat based on PIS. It gets irritating, because of the way members simply tag said event/action, as if was a cop out.

Ill give an example of PIS.
Cable vs. X-Man round two. Nate had already made short work of Cable, with a psi blast that level his house (apparently its foundation can with stand atomic bombardment). Grey goes on to face down Exodus, then takes on Cable and his Mentor. Overpowers Cable mentor, with a fail safe ability meant to be used on Cable if he ever got out of control. And X-Man starts to accesses more power, with a psionic backlash that tears right through all psi sensitive characters across the globe (aka telepaths such as; Xavier, Jean, hell even Holocaust).

Where is the PIS part? Cable, still standing right in front of the vary man that is unleashing with out the ill effects of his comrades. The big give away of the Plot Induced Stupidity - the comic states, he is becoming stronger for no apparent reason.

Did you guys catch that? no forward explanation as to why Cable can keep up. He simply does, by way of comic magic, and ultimately wins since X-Man eventually burns out.

PIS used as a Cop Out.
Onslaught handling Juggernaut. Wait Juggernaut was not suppose be handled by a character that is only Magneto/Xavier powers unleashed. Well its because, Onslaught was suppose to be much more then Xavier/Magneto unleashed. Remember he was funneling energy from the collective conscious of all living creatures(?) Cable with his powers unleashed ala Cassandra Cain/Xavier could not take on the Hotocomb composed of over 8 billion minds. You get my point? Juggernaut has never taken on a psi of that magnitude, which goes on to show what will happened if he ever encounter the likes of one again.

But wait, later on we find out that, he never needed the gem. Key words “later on“, as in retcon, you cant hold later events accountable on a past arc. Hey look previously Ion could do a gang load of shiz, basically ending cosmic threats with les then an after thought, now he gets punked buy Superboy Prime.

Well that’s all end [/]rant[]

Originally posted by id369
I want to draw out a concern.

Lately, well cant actually say lately but for some time. Members have incline to deduce said feat based on PIS. It gets irritating, because of the way members simply tag said event/action, as if was a cop out.

Ill give an example of PIS.
Cable vs. X-Man round two. Nate had already made short work of Cable, with a psi blast that level his house (apparently its foundation can with stand atomic bombardment). Grey goes on to face down Exodus, then takes on Cable and his Mentor. Overpowers Cable mentor, with a fail safe ability meant to be used on Cable if he ever got out of control. And X-Man starts to accesses more power, with a psionic backlash that tears right through all psi sensitive characters across the globe (aka telepaths such as; Xavier, Jean, hell even Holocaust).

Where is the PIS part? Cable, still standing right in front of the vary man that is unleashing with out the ill effects of his comrades. The big give away of the Plot Induced Stupidity - the comic states, he is becoming stronger for no apparent reason.

Did you guys catch that? no forward explanation as to why Cable can keep up. He simply does, by way of comic magic, and ultimately wins since X-Man eventually burns out.

PIS used as a Cop Out.
Onslaught handling Juggernaut. Wait Juggernaut was not suppose be handled by a character that is only Magneto/Xavier powers unleashed. Well its because, Onslaught was suppose to be much more then Xavier/Magneto unleashed. Remember he was funneling energy from the collective conscious of all living creatures(?) Cable with his powers unleashed ala Cassandra Cain/Xavier could not take on the Hotocomb composed of over 8 billion minds. You get my point? Juggernaut has never taken on a psi of that magnitude, which goes on to show what will happened if he ever encounter the likes of one again.

But wait, later on we find out that, he never needed the gem. Key words “later on“, as in retcon, you cant hold later events accountable on a past arc. Hey look previously Ion could do a gang load of shiz, basically ending cosmic threats with les then an after thought, now he gets punked buy Superboy Prime.

Well that’s all end [/]rant[]

Cassandra Nova you meant? Not Cassandra Cain.

As for Ion...different Ions. Kyle Rayner was teh best, Sodam Yat...well, what do you expect from the noob having his very 1st big fight?
Current Ion dragged the title in the shit.

But your very 1st example is the PIS plain and simple. IMO (and that's what I always try to do) PIS should be proclaimed such based on the context.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Cassandra Nova you meant? Not Cassandra Cain.

As for Ion...different Ions. Kyle Rayner was teh best, Sodam Yat...well, what do you expect from the noob having his very 1st big fight?
Current Ion dragged the title in the shit.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Cassandra Nova you meant? Not Cassandra Cain.

As for Ion...different Ions. Kyle Rayner was teh best, Sodam Yat...well, what do you expect from the noob having his very 1st big fight?
Current Ion dragged the title in the shit.

Meant to say Nova, I always get those two confused. 😮

Originally posted by id369
Meant to say Nova, I always get those two confused. 😮

Originally posted by fangirl101
He really did. He's a daxamite with a GL ring and the ION power and he's done nothing but get pwned. It should take a squad of GLs, Superman and the Krypto girls, and some lead to take this guy out.

There is also Rulk beating Odin Force Thor……PIS!. Wait lets take a minute before we tag it with our favorite 3 letter cop out.

The term Odin Force Thor, gets thrown around as if this Thor is operating in the same power level as Avengers Disassembled arc. I remember vary well, an article posted here in KMC under the comic book section (not the versus), where the author addressed something similar to this;

This is not Thor as a full cosmic force as seen in Disassembled, yet he is still the King of Asgard and retains a link to the Odin Force.

A link, not full accesses to it. It would be vary stupid for the author to bring on Odin level character, uncapped into mainstream Marvel Earth. Vary, Vary few would be able to stand up to him. In fact, I find it stupid that a Celestial is just standing their doing nothing, while the whole Skrull invasion is going on. But hey shit writing sells.

PIS and context are so muddled. I've seen scans posted way out of context too many times as "proof".

PIS seems to be a subjective term thrown around a lot. The best we can do is most of us coming to a consensus on what is PIS and ignoring any trolls or fanboys who say otherwise.

Originally posted by Badabing
PIS and context are so muddled. I've seen scans posted way out of context too many times as "proof".

PIS seems to be a subjective term thrown around a lot. The best we can do is most of us coming to a consensus on what is PIS and ignoring any trolls or fanboys who say otherwise.

Rulk smashing in the Watchers lip and beating Odin power Thor are UNacceptable. Given the fact that Dead Galaxies clashed in Odin's face, and the Watcher has witnessed exploding Universes, it is silly to think Rulk could hurt either.

Inference of powers would be like superman being able to xray someone to death given the doses of radiation that go into xrays. If that is in fact what his vision uses, even tho he clearly has never done so.

Here's a potential solution for one of the problems: just like prep, where it is assumed "no prep" unless the thread-starter specifies, we could have one way be the default unless specified.

Example: Superman vs. Anyone. We could make it that Supes fights to the full extent of his abilities, CIS turned off, as the default. Then the thread starter could specify that character traits, not just power sets, are to be counted, which would override the default setting.

Or the reverse, if we think the majority should include CIS factors like "boyscout mode" and such, and should only be "power sets only" or "bloodlust" when specified by the thread-starter.

Of course, this could easily lead to things like CBR Surfer (if you know about it, you know), but would also make an objective criteria for debating.

....

As for Inferred ability vs. on-panel ability, I'm still thinking about it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Here's a potential solution for one of the problems: just like prep, where it is assumed "no prep" unless the thread-starter specifies, we could have one way be the default unless specified.

Example: Superman vs. Anyone. We could make it that Supes fights to the full extent of his abilities, CIS turned off, as the default. Then the thread starter could specify that character traits, not just power sets, are to be counted, which would override the default setting.

Or the reverse, if we think the majority should include CIS factors like "boyscout mode" and such, and should only be "power sets only" or "bloodlust" when specified by the thread-starter.

Of course, this could easily lead to things like CBR Surfer (if you know about it, you know), but would also make an objective criteria for debating.

....

As for Inferred ability vs. on-panel ability, I'm still thinking about it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

As for Inferred ability vs. on-panel ability, I'm still thinking about it.

there's 2 types of inferred ability:

1) the obvious.

For example, someone asks 'Can Silver Surfer survive being hit by an oil truck'. Now, this may never have happened in comics. But we can all see that Surfer, because he survived things far worse, would easily survive that. So that's an example of inferring something that should be allowed without debate.

2) the not so obvious

Someone says Silver Surfer can defend against a speedblitz. Even though Surfer has never done so, the reasoning is that since he can travel at FTL speed throughout the universe, he must have FTL reflexes, and hence should be able to defend against a speedblitz. This type of inference is a lot more problematic.

I'm not sure what the solution/brightline rule should be.

That's not quite the issue mb, though you've got the starting point there. Few, if any, have a problem with your first type. For the second type (and I won't use examples, for fear of starting a Surfer scan war), the problem isn't so much whether it should be allowed or not, but whether his power set actually infers it. Everyone's ok with inferring when they agree on the inference, but not when it becomes harder to logically deduce without possible doubt.

We can't say "yes, that's allowed" or "no it isn't" because we don't have a definitive stance on the point, nor can we draw a clear line as to what is and isn't acceptable. Thus the problem. It's not really rule-able, and is possibly something we shouldn't be trying to standardize in the first place.

...

Anyway, see my post above for a suggestion on CIS vs. power sets only. It's probably the one thing I'll have a clear opinion on here.

This also relates to it:

Originally posted by darthgoober
I think that CIS should be the standard since THAT's the version we actually see from issue to issue, and the "going all out killmode" should be stipulated by the thread starter. But maybe that's just me...

Agreed.