Rules & debating discussion thread.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Agreed.

Digi, I kinda agree with Goober as well that CIS should be prob the default...or else we're not really debating characters, but rather mere powersets.

Although there are some characters who imo are almost always CIS...ie Flash. Flash basically rarely fights to the level hes capable of because if he did, his rogue gallery wouldn't stand a chance. So do we treat him like Rhino (ie someone who vastly underfights their powerlevel) or do we go the other extreme and treat him like a highherald that his powerset is capable of achieving?

Flash's bad showings are more PIS than anything. Ending things in picoseconds would make for tough writing. So even with CIS, he can usually be argued at top speeds.

So here's a hypo, would Thor use godblast in a forum fight against someone of the same tier? (even though if in character, he prob wouldn't)

Originally posted by Starscream M
So here's a hypo, would Thor use godblast in a forum fight against someone of the same tier? (even though if in character, he prob wouldn't)

With CIS on, no, of course not. With it turned off, by default we have to assume it will be used.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
With CIS on, no, of course not. With it turned off, by default we have to assume it will be used.

👆

Heh. A convo where we haven't fought. Should I throw a party?

haermm

What of Blackbolt screaming in a fight?

You know what might help? Scrapping terms like PIS and CIS in favor of new ones. The terms PIS and CIS both originated at CBR if I'm not mistaken and they're actually meant to apply to that kind of debating. This of course leads to all kinds of confusion(especially to visitors from other boards) because the terms aren't really applied correctly even in those rare instances in which most of us agree on them.

So let's talk about comics and the sense of time and how they are portrayed. Take for instance Gladiator destroying a planet or planetoid with three punches. was it really three? Or were the panels limited in the fact that it's a comic and they usually draw in panels for motion effect. Was it a planet? How big was it? If someone is fighting at Superspeed and you dont' see the action, are we to assume they didnt' throw any punches becuz it's not expliticly shown? I keep hearing about the Silver Surfer's infinite Amp abiblity but I've never seen it. Should that even be allowed to be mentioned in a forum debate?

Guys, we're not using this thread to decide which attacks are in character and which aren't. Save your specific questions until we progress the discussion to that point. Thanks.

Ok. So we gotta look at some things in general about comics.

They aren't cameras. It's panel. Which means we really don't see all of the action.

Hyperbole on panel statements without collaborative evidence in said comic or in previous comics may need to be outlawed. For instance transmangor and the omnipotent votronix destroyed countless moons in thier fight. And yet after the fight we see the moons all in tact with no explaination for how they got put back that way.

Originally posted by fangirl101
So let's talk about comics and the sense of time and how they are portrayed. Take for instance Gladiator destroying a planet or planetoid with three punches. was it really three? Or were the panels limited in the fact that it's a comic and they usually draw in panels for motion effect. Was it a planet? How big was it? If someone is fighting at Superspeed and you dont' see the action, are we to assume they didnt' throw any punches becuz it's not expliticly shown? I keep hearing about the Silver Surfer's infinite Amp abiblity but I've never seen it. Should that even be allowed to be mentioned in a forum debate?

Bada's right. Anyway, see the last page for my suggestion. Like most things I say, I really like it.

😐

Originally posted by Starscream M

2. Bada, don't be so defensive. I wasn't criticizing you, merely asking about your thread closing policy. I understand if it was off-topic, and I will not comment on it any further.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You know what might help? Scrapping terms like PIS and CIS in favor of new ones. The terms PIS and CIS both originated at CBR if I'm not mistaken and they're actually meant to apply to that kind of debating. This of course leads to all kinds of confusion(especially to visitors from other boards) because the terms aren't really applied correctly even in those rare instances in which most of us agree on them.

As for Flash, I'd actually title it under CIS... I think that he's only going to use top speed against characters that can match it, and otherwise will still go fast, but perhaps not super fast... it's really not representative of the characters to assume that they'll do something which we know would never be written.

Looking at it like this also circumvents "speedblitz" arguments.

Common Knowledge. What is it?

Originally posted by Starscream M
2 points:

1) Good rules are rules that are simple and clear. If you make rules that are too complex and convoluted, then people won't understand or follow them.

2) Guys, debating comics isn't a science. We shouldn't reduce it to such. Part of the fun of debating comics is approaching it from different perspectives and reaching different outcomes. We don't have to enforce some kind of group think...that would result in completely mechanical debates with monotonous results.

I agree with Digi that we shouldn't tell people how they should debate. Sure we can set some general guidelines, but everyone should be allowed their freedom to voice their opinions (as long as its not blatant flame or trolling). Nobody is forcing anyone to read other's opinions, if you don't like it, just ignore it.

Ill give you a link here to a cbr thread. Now I went there after my battlezone with nver and just recently have returned. This is what cannot happen imo. Take a look see and read for yourself.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=239606

Now, Id like anyone who is interested in this to take a quick read through this. Basically,Gladiator wins due to his speed and their minds are already made up. They use pis and such to pretty much favor certain characters and argue powerset vs powerset which is pretty boring to say the least. I like herochat's approach because we argue whats in character. Gladiator can use his superspeed sure,but saying he beats anyone without it 10 of 10 is completely and utterly ridiculous especially when Gladiator has never defeated him inside a comic book. Kmc can never turn into cbr.

Here is a pm I received shortly after the mod closed this down for further review. Its from come cbrer who I dont even know. Ill leave his name out of it,but Id like you to see what he wrote.

You can't win with them. They just compare powersets and nothing else. The term "PIS" will be the bane of your existance. If I were you I'd just let it go. The rest of the boards on this site rock, but the rumbles boards...eh.. people outside of that board have a bad opinion about it for a reason.

Im just throwing this in there so we dont become more like cbr.

this attempt to quantify subjectivity is interesting. i'm not entirely sure it's necessary though. i think the bulk of threads work just fine and tend to be debated fairly (though i'm no mod so perhaps i'm wrong in that assumption). i think trying to define things like pis and cis is for the most part fruitless though. digi's idea is the simplest. if you don't want something to be factored into the debate, specify it in your thread. declare a thread scan-only if you feel you must. there has ALWAYS been the issue of "forum characters". does anyone really think that if sentry fought surfer in a comic that ss would simply encase him in adamantium, or manipulate his dna in such a way as to shut off his powers? of course not. common sense should tell any reasonably intelligent reader that a battle betwen these 2 would likely be a great battle. does that mean ss couldn't do those things? probably not, and i think "inferred power" CAN be used in a debate, but it shouldn't be the ONLY thing, and it shouldn't be allowed to be 'proof' that one character would win.

imho, it's all right to posit unsupported abilities and tactics, but only IF your position is a LOGICAL extension of on-panel feats and remains in-character. as i said, inferred abilities rarely end any debate as far as i'm concerned, but they should certainly be given credence if they are logical extensions of the character's abilities.

i've always been one who tends to look at the MODE of a character in a debate, as opposed to the mean. i personally feel that is the best way to gauge a character. i guess if i were to suggest any change, it would simply be to remove any idea of "blood lust" or "fighting to their fullest abilities", because both of those descriptions describe instances of the character that are OUTSIDE the mode. the notion of having people debate while demanding they 'keep characters IN character' while simultaneously allowing them the lee-way of saying the characters can be "blood-lusted" and are supposed to be "fighting to their fullest potential" is paradoxical. would thor use a godblast against superman? maybe, but not likely. would superman blitz thor and hit him 500 times in the first second without thor being able to react? extremely unlikely, but perhaps possible. more than likley, they would slug it out until one fell and it would be a great battle. too few people imagine what a battle would look like IN A COMIC BOOK. the irony of that of course is that that is exactly what we are debating.

the whole issue can be compounded at times because certain well-debated characters have SOOOOOO many more appearances than others and have a far greater feat-base to draw from, which invariably leads to more cases of pis/cis. i personally refrain from calling pis OR cis unless it is a VERY blatant case. most of the time, these "cases" can be explained away in some sort of logical manner. even the spidey v FL example can be explained away to some degree--FL was surprised and tired, he was holding back, he never expected spidey to attack, yada-yada. i think pis/cis are declared with far too much frequency, often by people whose 'favourite' was trashed and they need it to be pis to sleep at night.

the vast majority of these 'issues' can be resolved with more specific thread direction, and a little common sense.

Originally posted by id369
I want to draw out a concern.

Lately, well cant actually say lately but for some time. Members have incline to deduce said feat based on PIS. It gets irritating, because of the way members simply tag said event/action, as if was a cop out.

Ill give an example of PIS.
Cable vs. X-Man round two. Nate had already made short work of Cable, with a psi blast that level his house (apparently its foundation can with stand atomic bombardment). Grey goes on to face down Exodus, then takes on Cable and his Mentor. Overpowers Cable mentor, with a fail safe ability meant to be used on Cable if he ever got out of control. And X-Man starts to accesses more power, with a psionic backlash that tears right through all psi sensitive characters across the globe (aka telepaths such as; Xavier, Jean, hell even Holocaust).

Where is the PIS part? Cable, still standing right in front of the vary man that is unleashing with out the ill effects of his comrades. The big give away of the Plot Induced Stupidity - the comic states, he is becoming stronger for no apparent reason.

Did you guys catch that? no forward explanation as to why Cable can keep up. He simply does, by way of comic magic, and ultimately wins since X-Man eventually burns out.

PIS used as a Cop Out.
Onslaught handling Juggernaut. Wait Juggernaut was not suppose be handled by a character that is only Magneto/Xavier powers unleashed. Well its because, Onslaught was suppose to be much more then Xavier/Magneto unleashed. Remember he was funneling energy from the collective conscious of all living creatures(?) Cable with his powers unleashed ala Cassandra Cain/Xavier could not take on the Hotocomb composed of over 8 billion minds. You get my point? Juggernaut has never taken on a psi of that magnitude, which goes on to show what will happened if he ever encounter the likes of one again.

But wait, later on we find out that, he never needed the gem. Key words “later on“, as in retcon, you cant hold later events accountable on a past arc. Hey look previously Ion could do a gang load of shiz, basically ending cosmic threats with les then an after thought, now he gets punked buy Superboy Prime.

Well that’s all end [/]rant[]

I wish to draw out Another Concern With Respect to Subjective Interpretation Of PIS Events In Versus Debates.

In The First Scenario Cable vs Nate Grey.

Members on KMC forums with exposure to multiple story-lines by different writers are less inclined to perceive an unfamiliar feat as PIS.

It is Not PIS for Cable to stand up to the energies spinning out of Nate Grey. Their cellular structure and Mutation are Identical.

Pre Pube Cable Engaged a Full Power Clone in direct combat The energies released by his clone are stated to give him pain similar to a migraine but are non lethal.

In X-Cutioners song a fully developed Cable and Stryfe fight h2h again. Stryfe's Energy projection causes him considerable pain when in proximity when it mingles with his own energy signature. However this is non lethal. it is established by Marvel their dna is alike.

When Nate Grey and Cable fight it is stated that both combatants experience acute pain when in proximity to each other. While Nate Grey is Cables mirror image as he is from another dimension his energy frequency is slightly off. Thus both experience acute pain. Again the effects are non lethal.
The People responsible for Cables education in the future were famous for faking death through a variety of non-technological methods two of which Cable and Blaquesmith utilise in the encounter with Nate Grey to successfully evade his point blank Full Power Attacks. To further clarify that this incident is not PIS, earlier in the story Blaquesmith and Cable utilise skills learnt in the 3oth Century to enhance their base Telepathy to brainwash Phoenix, Xavier and All the occupants of the X-mansion with the exception of Roberto DaCosta who had aquired immunity to the techniques previously from a mind meld with Cable.
At a later date Nate Grey seeks out Roberto DaCosta's team and picks his mind to learn the techniques for personal usage.

Ignorance is a difficult issue to address.

For instance I may argue that Wolverine cannot jump 25 feet. But Another poster ie Battlehammer with wider exposure to Wolverine's canon feats might disagree but may not have the time the energy or the scanner at hand to post specifics.

when that happens debate can deteriorate into namecalling, spamming, trolling, bashing, flaming and spite-reporting to Mods to get other posters banned.

Suggestions To Adress This

=15 day temp ban on members who make mischeivious reports to Forum Moderators

=a three day ban for flaming

=IC default setting for all Vs Fights. By IC I mean In character .

Originally posted by leonidas
too few people imagine what a battle would look like IN A COMIC BOOK. the irony of that of course is that that is exactly what we are debating.

Leo...I had exactly the same thought.

However, you have to realize that if we argued battles as they would happen in comics...the result is not pretty.

Often, in comics, battles happen the way they do to GARNER SALES period. That's why in a comic, if Superman fought Hulk, Superman would barely fly or use flight to his advantage and would instead trade blows with Hulk. Comics do this because that is the only way a Hulk Superman fight could last more than a page...but on KMC Superman would def use flight in a big way in a fight against someone who couldn't.

So I don't think we could argue fights as they would happen in comics for that reason.