Fate of the Jedi Series (Post-LOTF)

Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely. I'll quote the relevant excerpts, because the entire passage is far too long:

Despite his considerable power, experience, and the advantage of a lightsaber, Skywalker was still hurled into a pillar at the strength of the Hidden One's power.

That just shows that the Hidden One's power was great like the book says Luke has no knowledge of him or how powerful he is. I just don't see Luke going from talking to all out defenses. I don't think Luke has ever gone into all out anything right off the bat.

Compare that to Obi-Wan Kenobi's casual deflection of Count Dooku's Force lightning in Attack of the Clones, gripping his lightsaber one handed, or to Mace Windu's own strenuous battle against the Emperor in Revenge of the Sith; even he wasn't hurled back.

I'd say the Hidden One's power was greater than that of Dooku's.

Mace was fully immersed in the force during their battle and was going all out against the emperor.

Again, despite his considerable power, Luke was still clearly struggling.

There are a few others, his exertion in destabilizing the whirlwind summoned by the Hidden One, the pillar that collapsed toward him, and when the Hidden One hurled his throne at Luke.

I don't see how Luke struggled at all, the only thing where he could have been struggling was the line that stats "His exertion was like a physical blow when he stepped into it."

and then as to the pillar he blocked it with one hand and then used one hand to lift it and throw it at the throne with the force. that doesn't look like struggling to me.

It wasn't my contention that he lost or whatnot, but he struggled immensely against a relatively random monk, acknowledging that his victory would be hard fought.

also mace Windu was hard pressed to defeat some random force user as well. does that mean that mace was somehow less powerful than what we thought or that his enemy was just that powerful in the force.

the fact that he was some random monk doesn't matter he can still be powerful in the force. which he was. I just don't see Luke struggling "immensely" at all in this fight I guess we both interpret it differently.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also mace Windu was hard pressed to defeat some random force user as well. does that mean that mace was somehow less powerful than what we thought or that his enemy was just that powerful in the force.

Where?

the fact that he was some random monk doesn't matter he can still be powerful in the force. which he was. I just don't see Luke struggling "immensely" at all in this fight I guess we both interpret it differently.

If you think Luke wasn't struggling or it was akin to a walk in the park, you're not reading where it explicitly says that he isn't having an easy time.

I don't think this book does justice to Luke. A random monk can be powerful, sure. But able to challenge the most powerful Force user alive? No.

Originally posted by Gideon
He was pinned to the wall initially; never said it kept him there.

Once again, he struggled immensely to repulse the attacks and acknowledged that the Hidden One's power was great and that he wasn't exactly confident of the outcome as the fight began.

His was knocked against it not pinned when you are pinned it means that you can't move Luke clearly got up and began moving towards him.

And yes, Luke wasn't sure of the outcome of the fight until he got his footing and rooted himself in the force. But just because you don't know the outcome of the fight when you get into it doesn't mean that the fight will be hard pressed or hard. It just means that you recognize how good your opponent is.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
But just because you don't know the outcome of the fight when you get into it doesn't mean that the fight will be hard pressed or hard. It just means that you recognize how good your opponent is.

No offense but... that makes no sense whatsoever. The only reason you'd be unsure of a fight after the opening salvo is because you're not certain how easily your opponent will be defeated. It was clearly a struggle for Luke. And it shouldn't have been.

Originally posted by Gideon
Where?

kar vastor

If you think Luke wasn't struggling or it was akin to a walk in the park, you're not reading where it explicitly says that he isn't having an easy time.

I don't think this book does justice to Luke. A random monk can be powerful, sure. But able to challenge the most powerful Force user alive? No.

I'm not saying it was just a piece of cake for Luke but I don't see how him struggling "immensely" in this fight at all, the only thing he really struggled against was walking through the wind/sandstorm.

and I do agree that Luke wasn't done justice. as to being able to challenge the most powerful force user I agree with you to some extent Kar Vastor was able to challenge Mace the second most powerful jedi in his time.

I think that Luke should have just rooted himself in the force picked up the Hidden One and thrown him into a wall kinda like how vader did it to Galen. after seeing everything Luke is capable of that wouldn't be hard to see at all.

Kar Vastor was established through the narrative to be an immensely powerful individual. The Hidden One wasn't. And Mace, Force-wise, is no Luke.

Originally posted by Gideon
No offense but... that makes no sense whatsoever. The only reason you'd be unsure of a fight after the opening salvo is because you're not certain how easily your opponent will be defeated. It was clearly a struggle for Luke. And it shouldn't have been.

I don't think I communicated the point clearly it's like in UFC fighting when Brock lesnar went after the title against kocher(sp) he didn't know what the outcome of the fight would be until he got off one good hit to the face but during his fight (which lasted maybe 2-3min in the first round) he wasn't struggling at all he just didn't know if he could beat koucher.

Originally posted by Gideon
Kar Vastor was established through the narrative to be an immensely powerful individual. The Hidden One wasn't. And Mace, Force-wise, is no Luke.

just because the Hidden one was stated to be immensely powerful doesn't mean he wasn't like in the power chart thread if Luke, the most powerful force user, has tough battle someone just because the narrative doesn't state that they are very powerful in the force doesn't mean they aren't the fact that Luke in one way or another struggled against some his attacks shows that his opponent is strong.

hopefully that makes sense...

just a thought it's funny how we blow Luke out of proportion and think he is too powerful and all that and then when the writers show him as less powerful when he isn't going all out we get irritated kinda of a damned if we do damned if we don't kind of a thing

In order to validate the sense of danger one is supposed to feel at the antagonist, one must put the protagonist in danger. When you have a protagonist like Luke, we're screwed.

And he's not too powerful. He's not even the most powerful Force user ever. He's just to the point where no one left could conceivably (or should conceivably) challenge him on even footing.

I agree with you on that I just don't think he struggled "immensely" in the fight.

Good debate though it was fun it's been a long time since I've debated here. any tips as to how I can improve my debating skills?

None. You're quite good.

well thank you.

Gideon, I think poppunker and you have already picked up on where we were before so I'll just continue from where yall are now if thats alrighty.

Mainly, I think Luke never really went on the offensive in any significant way, perhaps making him look weaker. They still made him out to be much more capable than everyone else in the book. Look at how several Jedi had difficulty against Valin in his crazed state, yet Luke defeated him with one pass of the lightsaber in all of one second.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Gideon, I think poppunker and you have already picked up on where we were before so I'll just continue from where yall are now if thats alrighty.

Mainly, I think Luke never really went on the offensive in any significant way, perhaps making him look weaker. They still made him out to be much more capable than everyone else in the book. Look at how several Jedi had difficulty against Valin in his crazed state, yet Luke defeated him with one pass of the lightsaber in all of one second.

It's still not potent enough for someone of Luke's caliber.

Originally posted by Gideon
It's still not potent enough for someone of Luke's caliber.

Doesn't look like Luke is beyond getting challenged with the force, after all Yoda had 900 years and he still run into some challenges.

Mostly I don't think Luke has faced that many genuine force masters since the C'Baoth days. Lumiya... and who else? You never know how a show down with force masters will transpire.

EDIT: When he faced Lumiya (I believe it was) he mentions that he hasn't faced an opponent with such a physically oppressive dark side presence since Vader.

Lumiya > Sidious.

You heard it here first. Gideon's essays = null and void.

Originally posted by Eminence
Lumiya > Sidious.

You heard it here first. Gideon's essays = null and void.

You're kidding, right?

Allankles, I'd have to agree with you about Luke having not faced someone so deep in the darkside, but he still had fought plenty of very capable opponents since Vader and C'Baoth. Unuthul, Shimrra, DE Sidious, Lomi Plo, Welk, ect. Plus he also had guys like Kyp Durron, Katarn, Corran Horn, ect to train with even though they weren't evil.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You're kidding, right?

She has a ****ing lightwhip, man.

Originally posted by Eminence
...

She has a ****ing lightwhip, man.

She could whip me anytime. If she doesn't press the activator pad that is.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You're kidding, right?

Allankles, I'd have to agree with you about Luke having not faced someone so deep in the darkside, but he still had fought plenty of very capable opponents since Vader and C'Baoth. Unuthul, Shimrra, DE Sidious, Lomi Plo, Welk, ect. Plus he also had guys like Kyp Durron, Katarn, Corran Horn, ect to train with even though they weren't evil.

DE Sidious doesn't exist to me.

I'm not saying he doesn't have the experience, but how many times has he been subjected to force attacks against genuine masters?

Being a master of the force is not something to be lightly discarded, so I wasn't surprised reading Luke suffering some troubles against an opponent with his own considerable mastery over the force.