Originally posted by Gideon
Christ, you have no understanding of PIS, and it's very easy. Jacen Solo getting schooled by Luke Skywalker multiple times and the flimsy excuse he had for not murdering Jacen is plot induced stupidity. They couldn't have Skywalker murdering Jacen since they had one more book to fill and the excuse was weak. It's PIS.
I'm sorry to revive this, but I have to side with truejedi. The only part of this that was PIS was the excuse used to justify it, not the action itself. The idea that Luke > Caedus is valid, but the idea that he wouldn't kill him is PIS. I don't see where the argument is coming from.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm sorry to revive this, but I have to side with truejedi. The only part of this that was PIS was the excuse used to justify it, not the action itself. The idea that Luke > Caedus is valid, but the idea that he wouldn't kill him is PIS. I don't see where the argument is coming from.
You say that you side with truejedi and yet everything you 'agree' with is my point. No one said that Skywalker's superiority was PIS.
No need for the insults and antagonizing, gentlemen.
And I'm sorry, I meant that PIS didn't apply for stormtroopers. The inability of the writers to create a challenge for Luke may have involved PIS, yes. The stormtroopers is a whole other barrel of monkeys that we've already discussed and don't need to discuss again here.
TrueJedi:
[...] i would say it wouldn't be considered PIS to call Luke > Jacen. All sources back it up, AND it is clearly described in book after book.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm sorry to revive this, but I have to side with truejedi. The only part of this that was PIS was the excuse used to justify it, not the action itself. The idea that Luke > Caedus is valid, but the idea that he wouldn't kill him is PIS. I don't see where the argument is coming from.
Originally posted by Gideon
Christ, you have no understanding of PIS, and it's very easy. Jacen Solo getting schooled by Luke Skywalker multiple times and the flimsy excuse he had for not murdering Jacen is plot induced stupidity. They couldn't have Skywalker murdering Jacen since they had one more book to fill and the excuse was weak. It's PIS.
We all agree about the PIS residing in the excuse, rather than the fact Luke > Caedus. Why are you so confrontational? We're not really arguing at all. With all due respect, TrueJedi's ability to maintain his composure cast him in a more favorable light than all of your ranting and ignoring.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
We all agree about the PIS residing in the excuse, rather than the fact Luke > Caedus.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm sorry to revive this, but I have to side with truejedi. The only part of this that was PIS was the excuse used to justify it, not the action itself. The idea that Luke > Caedus is valid, but the idea that he wouldn't kill him is PIS. I don't see where the argument is coming from.
So you 'revived' a dead argument to inform us that you agree with truejedi on a point that I didn't contest. You then go on to say that you have no idea where the argument is coming from. In essence, your whole statement was entirely irrelevant. Truejedi was going round and round in circles with me, not comprehending basic PIS. Meanwhile, everyone else minus REX and Ushgarak understand it just fine.
Why are you so confrontational?
Three years of dealing with presumably intelligent people getting it wrong. Disagreeing with me on a simple topic of a simple concept is bound to annoy me. But, for the record? I'm not the only one.
We're not really arguing at all.
In that you don't have an argument, I agree. Your post was essentially "LOLZ SORRY TO REVIVE A SOURCE OF FRUSTRATION FOR EVERYONE PRESENT OVER A SIMPLE SUBJECT BUT I JUST WANTED TO INFORM YOU, GIDEON, THAT I AGREE WITH TRUEJEDI ON POINT X" -- Point X being something I didn't contest nor argue against, but was in fact the entire crux of my argument.
Basically, you completely missed the point of the debate (like Truejedi) completely. If that's the case, and it's already dead, why on Earth would you offer your opinion?
With all due respect, TrueJedi's ability to maintain his composure cast him in a more favorable light than all of your ranting and ignoring.
Because he's nice? Well, ignorance is bliss. With all due respect to you two, I've been doing this for three years, once lauded for my patient persistence. You're an intelligent guy. Intelligent enough to correct my grammar yet you somehow bypassed an easily understood point. If that is the case, you have no business offering your opinion unless it is "Gideon, please explain this to me."
lol, Gideon, in a way, you crack me up. I pretty clearly explained why one case was PIS, while the other wasn't. I explained how YOUR use of PIS was contradicting canon, while mine wasn't. If you disagree with that assessement, fine, but to keep pretending i had no idea what you were talking about simply because i didn't draw the same conclusion as yourself serves only as a waste of time. I think your comeback to the fact that your example disregarded canon, while mine was supposing what would happen in an event that didn't actually occur was "we are done here."
My Caedus scenario, dueling luke was relevant, because it was the other side of the coin that you keep trying to force down our throats. If, in fact, Caedus beat luke, in a straight-up fight, I would admit Caedus was superior, while you might gather your vast amount of information indicating the opposite of that, and claim caedus NEEDED to defeat luke in order to, say bring about the order of the one Sith in LOTF comics.
You obviously missed my entire point there, and then go about claiming I don't understand yours...
In fact, you included EVERYONE who didn't agree with you as the ones who "didn't understand the concept." (rex, ush, nemesis, myself) I know it has probably never occurred to you before, but it is possible for you to be wrong.... and if thats too much of a stretch, at least accept that everyone isn't going to agree with you at the end of the day on every issue.
i was going to let this go, but when you told nemesis that HE obviously didn't understand the concept becasue HE didn't agree with you either, a light came on and i started to see the pattern.
Let me make sure i have it right:
If we agree with you, we are intelligent, and understand simple concepts, but if we don't, we not only disagree, but we disagree because we are too thick to have ANY idea what you are talking about? If thats correct and i finally understand, we can let this thread die.
oh, and you aren't the only one who has been doing this for 3 years. how that's relevant i'm not sure tho...
Originally posted by Gideon
So you 'revived' a dead argument to inform us that you agree with truejedi on a point that I didn't contest. You then go on to say that you have no idea where the argument is coming from. In essence, your whole statement was entirely irrelevant. Truejedi was going round and round in circles with me, not comprehending basic PIS. Meanwhile, everyone else minus REX and Ushgarak understand it just fine.
Originally posted by Gideon
Three years of dealing with presumably intelligent people getting it wrong. Disagreeing with me on a simple topic of a simple concept is bound to annoy me. But, for the record? I'm not the only one.
Edit: Quite frankly, the amount of time you've been doing this is irrelevant to me. I have discerned from the months that I have been here that you pay attention to detail, and are generally intelligent. This does not make you infallible, and perhaps you should place less emphasis on perfect consensus, and more on an open exchange of ideas.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Wow. Spaz out much?
That you would consider my response to you as a 'spaz out' shows how very little you know of me around here. I can assure you with the most profound candor imaginable that none of this is me being a spaz. It's more or less me being a little aggressive and impatient. Not flipping out.
I put in the 'revive' statement to say that while the matter was mostly settled, I thought I'd add my opinion.
Except that your opinion offered nothing new to what was a dead issue. Moreover, in some state of apparent ignorance, you attempted to state it as though you disagreed with what I said. Despite that, what you ended up posting did nothing to contradict my argument.
That brought about your so-called 'spaz' moment, for which you were rightfully held accountable. For someone who prides himself in grammar, perhaps you could have summoned the ability to word your stance better. "Cover thy ass" is one of my mottos, as you no doubt have witnessed from my arguments with Enyalus. You left your ass, in all of its pale and pockmarked glory, bare for all of us to see.
This is the internet, and I'll intrude on any argument that interests me.
Great.
Well, welcome to the internet. I'll happily bring anyone to task, including you, for perceived grievances and errors in judgment.
Consider this an e-sport, raise your game or get off the court. Catchy, eh? Long story short: if you're going to "intrude" and give your opinion, stop bitching when people like me get annoyed and call you out for offering nothing new.
Your argument thus far has essentially been:
Luke not killing Caedus is PIS. This means that the Stormtrooper's inaccuracy can also be defended via PIS.
No, my argument has been:
Truejedi happily accepts PIS when it pertains to behaviors and actions that contradict his status for the beloved Luke Skywalker, but not when the same occurs to stormtroopers. Perhaps the factors were REX and Ush, I don't know.
TrueJedi is rebelling against the concept of PIS, and the mods support this action.
Truejedi doesn't rebel against the concept of PIS. Not when it supports his character.
And don't appeal to authority, it's a logical fallacy. Are you here to help his point or crush it further?
There is no reason to dilute the internal consistency of Star Wars any further than is necessary.
There is rarely consistency. I created Project Holocron as one of the reasons. My methodology is the suspension of disbelief and working towards a logical conclusion. The idea that "lolz stormtroopers suck" is wrong, regardless if REX and Ush campaign it from here on out. The idea that "stormtroopers rock except when it pertains to neophyte farmboys and company" is equally laughable.
PIS dissolves the foundations of comparison that you yourself sought to establish in the Project Holocron thread.
Already dealt with. Of course, we'll throw stormtroopers on Project Holocron and let you deal with it.
The only response to PIS is to say that Star Wars is only fiction.
No, the correct response is that: "some things cannot be objectively explained, regardless of consistent analysis from the source material. Some events and circumstances exist only to further the plot, i.e. not killing off main characters."
This defeats the purpose of our entire forum, so we can't use it.
You're not doing a great job presenting your case. We can use it, when there's no other explanation.
PIS makes all of the arguments totally subjective.
It's really not. For example, Obi-Wan Kenobi's defeat of Anakin Skywalker is not plot induced stupidity, even though Skywalker is a more accomplished duelist. The circumstances of his defeat can be logically explained and have been through canon sources. Kenobi, despite being technically inferior, is a master of the ultimate defensive form and has not only been partnered with Skywalker for years, but was the one who observed and supervised his training. Skywalker, on the other hand, is on the verge of insanity with his mental breakdown where all he does is want to destroy Kenobi and crush him. He loses all tactical objectivity and pays for it with his limbs.
Its possible to use PIS to discard any feat that does not enhance one's own position, which is why it must be banned.
It's not. We prove most of our points through evidence and corroboration from other sources. Where is it corroborated that "LOLZ STORMTROOPERS SUCK!"
It is not a valuable tool in a comparison based on feats.
And when you can objectively prove "STORMTROOPERS SUCK," I'll concede. But you can't, so I'm not.
So because you aren't the only one to B**** at us for disagreeing with you, it makes it O.K?
I'm fine to disagree. I don't intend to continue this argument with truejedi, or REX, or Ush. I said that I wouldn't. Where I get annoyed is when people disagree purely to disagree, to be controversial, as you clearly are. You have no point.
Bear in mind you aren't arguing with the same people.
By throwing out your opinion when it offered absolutely nothing while simultaneously displaying ignorance of my stance and Truejedi, you jumped in line as far as people whom I'm less than courteous with. You're not helping yourself by continuing to disagree apparently purely to be controversial. None of your points have any merit to them.
Your frustration with them should not change how you deal with us.
Oh, rest assured, my attitude towards you is born purely from you and you alone.
Also, flying off the handle like that is immature and does not reflect positively on you.
Continuing to lecture me while all the while having your argument stripped away doesn't reflect upon you. Those who lecture properly do so because they are right. You're not, which casts a serious pall on yours.
You look much smarter when you take the time to elaborate on your position, rather than use your ignore function like a club.
As someone who seemingly prides himself on his comprehension of grammar and linguistics, what part of "I was joking, you moron" don't you understand? He's not on ignore. You just might make it there, though.
Edit: Quite frankly, the amount of time you've been doing this is irrelevant to me.
Three years of continuous debates? Yes, if I were a relative newbie, I'd dismiss seniority as well.
I have discerned from the months that I have been here that you pay attention to detail, and are generally intelligent.
Excellent. Which makes one wonder why you've picked an argument with a guy who pays attention to detail. I do. To your detriment.
This does not make you infallible,
No, my perfection makes me infallible. When you are in the employ of my Master, the Great Publius, you reap the rewards for loyal service.
and perhaps you should place less emphasis on perfect consensus, and more on an open exchange of ideas.
I'll get on that.
In return, perhaps you could stop trying to disagree with me just to be contrary. If you're going to argue with me and lecture me, please do us all the favor of being right. You clearly aren't up to the task, so I would suggest that you take the time to shift your stance or concede the point.
You get one more turn and then we're going to move on.
Edit: Just to be clear, Red Nemesis, I'm not spastic even here. I find you intelligent and I respect you. But it seems to me that you're not disagreeing with me out of an actual point, but perhaps in some sort of exercise or role as devil's advocate. But what you should know about me is that I am intolerant of double standards, regardless if your heart is in this or not. If I see that you are using them, I will not hesitate to bring that to your attention, aggressively or otherwise.
Originally posted by Gideon
It's really not. For example, Obi-Wan Kenobi's defeat of Anakin Skywalker is not plot induced stupidity, even though Skywalker is a more accomplished duelist. The circumstances of his defeat can be logically explained and have been through canon sources. Kenobi, despite being technically inferior, is a master of the ultimate defensive form and has not only been partnered with Skywalker for years, but was the one who observed and supervised his training. Skywalker, on the other hand, is on the verge of insanity with his mental breakdown where all he does is want to destroy Kenobi and crush him. He loses all tactical objectivity and pays for it with his limbs.
And not to contradict anything you're saying, but merely expanding upon this point, I believe we can use Obi-Wan's win over Anakin in that instance as a perfect case of CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) by Anakin, as opposed to PIS.
Originally posted by Enyalus
And not to contradict anything you're saying, but merely expanding upon this point, I believe we can use Obi-Wan's win over Anakin in that instance as a perfect case of CIS (Character Induced Stupidity) by Anakin, as opposed to PIS.
LOL.
The current CIS would object to abuse of that acronym. I think that sort of stupidity is inherent to most characters. After all, no SW personage is infallible, and even the most brilliant of men make the greatest mistakes.
i'm seriously curious with this question: if i concede the point can i move on to saying things like DE sidious wasn't really that powerful, he just needed to appear that powerful in order to make an interesting plot in DE? but in truth, he was really a weakling. For once, i'm not asking the question with ANY sarcasm. I'm curious as to how this theory of justifying things because of the plot will carry in a debate.
And Gideon, one last time, cause you clearly aren't getting it... If your statement contradicts a canon source, its using PIS over and above the bounds what we can use it for in a debate,
mine, about luke skywalker being ABLE to defeat Jacen contradicted nothing. That fight had never been fought in which Jacen won. If Jacen HAD won a fight, and i still made my claim about skywalker, then I would be using PIS over and above those same bounds. Its not really that hard to understand, i'm surprised that you, of all people haven't grasped it yet, as you continue to misrepresent my position over and over again.
Ending a pointless circular argument is fine, something i would be perfectly willing to do. Pretending to end it, then taking jab after jab in posts to other users is beneath even u, especially when you are OUTRIGHT LYING about my entire point.
Thats right, you are LYING about it. So stop. If there is anything more annoying than arguing with a brick wall, its arguing with a brick wall that lies...