That kind of argument is ridiculous. Darth Revan is a gimmick, and because of that, you haven't the means to interpret his level of power compared to Palpatine or his fighting expertise. So statements like "well the most powerful doesn't always win," while true, are born from bias and fanboyism. In such a case, we almost always have to compare who is stronger, which Palpatine is.
Originally posted by Gideon
That kind of argument is ridiculous. Darth Revan is a gimmick, and because of that, you haven't the means to interpret his level of power compared to Palpatine or his fighting expertise. So statements like "well the most powerful doesn't always win," while true, are born from bias and fanboyism. In such a case, we almost always have to compare who is stronger, which Palpatine is.
Revan is definitely not a gimmick but I do understand what you are saying. My point is Gideon many of you make it seem that Revan should not be include in certain discussions. No one is claiming that Revan is more powerful than Sidious.
But how many siths do have Revan's accomplishments? To say that Revan who's teachings made Bane powerful and scared him is not at a certain level does not make sense. Also to say that Revan did not master many of the force techniques does not make sense. No one would say that about Sidious who's teachings made all of his students powerful.
Revan should at least be in the same tier as Kun and Dooku.
The problem is, Revan's Lightsaber skills cannot be verified. In fact, his skills in combat may very much lie in other directions, blasters, or explosives, or even nothing but gigantic force attacks, so you can't make a concrete argument to support him in a sabers contest.
The flip-side of that is: is his force skills can't actually be verified either. we can't even prove he could produce lightning. So, while it is possible, even probable that he had massive force knowledge and power, it can't actually be checked. For all we know, he fought his final opponents with nothing but saber, or explosives, or blaster, using medpacks to instantly heal himself (lol)
Various quotes seem to point out that his power was immense, BUT, what did he use that power for? did he actually ever develop any force skills? that, was entirely at the decision of the game player, so we can't say specifically.
given the nature of KOTOR though, Chances are that Revan actually made use of the rather excellent strategy of running a few feet away from his opponent, turning around and shooting a blaster at that opponent, then ran away again, till he had gained enough of an edge on that opponent to turn and shoot them again. In fact, Revan's MAIN claim to fame could very possibly be amazing stamina and good foot speed.
Originally posted by truejedi
The problem is, Revan's Lightsaber skills cannot be verified. In fact, his skills in combat may very much lie in other directions, blasters, or explosives, or even nothing but gigantic force attacks, so you can't make a concrete argument to support him in a sabers contest.
True but we do know he was never defeated in a duel. Like any fight a person can use any means to win but to say the Revan only use blasters and explosives is ridiculous. Dooku and Sidious had no problem using any means to win a duel why would Revan be different or anyone who is fighting for there life.
The point is going through the Star Forge and starting and surviving a Jedi civil war does not show a person to be an average force user.
Originally posted by truejedi
The flip-side of that is: is his force skills can't actually be verified either. we can't even prove he could produce lightning. So, while it is possible, even probable that he had massive force knowledge and power, it can't actually be checked. For all we know, he fought his final opponents with nothing but saber, or explosives, or blaster, using medpacks to instantly heal himself (lol)
Once again Revan force techniques made Bane powerful. Revan came from a time of war a war the consisted of force users both dark and light. All quotes concerning Revan let us know that he was not on his ass like Sidious but participated in the war.
Originally posted by truejedi
Various quotes seem to point out that his power was immense, BUT, what did he use that power for? did he actually ever develop any force skills? that, was entirely at the decision of the game player, so we can't say specifically.
Let me think here, what is canon is that Revan was a Sith Lord. So we have a Sith Lord that did not master the basic dark techniques and started a war in which he converted many Jedi to Sith. Yes, I can see how it would be hard to see what Revan would use his force powers to accomplish. I’m sure he plundered Malachor V for fun. Seriously you need to play the game again.
Originally posted by truejedi
given the nature of KOTOR though, Chances are that Revan actually made use of the rather excellent strategy of running a few feet away from his opponent, turning around and shooting a blaster at that opponent, then ran away again, till he had gained enough of an edge on that opponent to turn and shoot them again. In fact, Revan's MAIN claim to fame could very possibly be amazing stamina and good foot speed.
See it is statements like this that people who support Revan are to suppose to take seriously. All of a sudden Revan is unlike any force user before him. If you do not like Revan fine, but please with statements such as this.
Ok, Revan has basic Force powers, but that still doesn't put him above the likes of Sidious who is stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and wipes out fleets with the force. Oh, and Revan did lose a duel, as I recall scripted moments in KOTOR have Malak curbstomping Revan with the force. He would have died were it not for Bastilla's interference
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ok, Revan has basic Force powers, but that still doesn't put him above the likes of Sidious who is stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and wipes out fleets with the force. Oh, and Revan did lose a duel, as I recall scripted moments in KOTOR have Malak curbstomping Revan with the force. He would have died were it not for Bastilla's interference
No one is stating Revan is more powerful than Sidious. Also you have to have more than Basic force powers to lead thousands of Sith and Jedi. Are you forgetting about Bane who became strong from Revan's teaching and the sith assassins which Revan started. Revan was able to defeat someone who knew force lighting and force drain to name a few while being empowered by the SF with basic force abilities. Wonderful logic!
Revan did not lose the duel, unless you can provide a canon quote stating so. The fight was interrupted by Bastilla, not the same as a lose.
I understand you do not like Revan either.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
We already knew that but it is a waste of space when all it did was say Revan is uber, I didn't see one mention to the opponents his team is facing.
It was not a waste as it gave specifics quotes and feats of Revan. What is a waste is statements that say Revan used blasters and explosives to accomplish all of his wins.
Do you want me to pull up the hundreds of debates of Revan vs Dooku and Sidious. That is all person has to do to see how Revan is view in comparison.
The feats at least let us know as I already stated that Revan should at least be consider on the tier of Dooku and Kun.
Kotor, you clearly AREN'T getting my point, in my personal opinion, i would place Revan somewhere along the lines of Bane, Dooku, and much more powerful than the exile, >than nihilus Sion> than almost any sith ever, he woudl definitly be in my top 5. I don't think he could defeat the "big 4" as of ROTS (anakin, obi-wan, mace, yoda) besides that, he could probably take on anyone in the order. (qui-gonn's my 5 on that jedi list, so i would put Revan about even with him)
My opinion counts for NOTHING though. You have come forth with flawless logic, that a sith lord would DEFINITLY know the usual force powers. I don't mind that, my point is, you can't prove it. and what count as the usual force powers? (lightning, shove, choke?) those really don't help his case as a powerful force user.
I would be all for a third KOTOR game that makes Revan the greatest Sith of all-time, i really wouldn't mind. He's probably my favorite Sith south of Vader. You just can't prove it right now. You have to be able to see that, i mean, don't you? Well, let me put that another way, You can't PROVE ANYTHING about him right now, but the most you can make us assume is that he wasn't below average.
We don't know how much knowledge bane gained from the Revan holocron vs. what he gained from the other holocrons, so you can't really put a measure on his knowledge that way either.
btw, you act like i don't like revan, or KOTOR. I love both. I'd love a KOTOR 3, if it came out on a console only, i might go buy a console, thats how much i like it. I'm just a little more realistic about what we can glean about a video game character from mix-n-match force powers from a menu of choices...
Finally, there was a 67% chance that Revan NEVER used a lightsaber very well. The game was made for one of three modes of combat:
Soldier, in that one, Revan WOULD be a skilled, dominant lightsaber duelist, no problem,
2nd, Scoundrel: A class that favored blasters and explosives, making the scoundrel smart enough to use droids in many situations to avoid combat entirely. If a scoundrel, on should assume revan used blasters, its only fair.
3rd, scouts DEFINITLY favor explosives and alternate methods of fighting other than head-on battles. In that case, explosives probably would be the weapon of choice, with blasters second, based on skill dispersal.
There you have it, only 1 in 3 would definitly favor using a melee weapon. I can't see how you called my original statement about him possibly using a blaster or explosive combination as a primary weapon choice "ridiculous"
Originally posted by Kotor3
True but we do know he was never defeated in a duel. Like any fight a person can use any means to win but to say the Revan only use blasters and explosives is ridiculous. Dooku and Sidious had no problem using any means to win a duel why would Revan be different or anyone who is fighting for there life.
The very point is that Dooku and Sidious [or anybody else for that matter] isn't known for carrying an entire bunch of explosives and medi-packs around in combat. Or let me rephrase that: It is unlikely that Revan archieved the things he did by the use of such weapons. But then it's also unlikely, that he let's six members of his crew stay at a ship without reason [three person party limit].
And what remains in form of canon is basically Revan's fights against people who's own power is defined by their standing in comparison to Revan - who himself is an unknown.
The point is going through the Star Forge and starting and surviving a Jedi civil war does not show a person to be an average force user.
The Rebellion started a Galaxy spanning Civil War without a single force user in their lines. You don't need to be a force user at all to start wars in the SW universe. And well...several billion beings in the Galaxy survived the Jedi Civil war. So what?
Oh yeah. I know. Revan did participate in the action, but apparently he still left most of the dirty work to his minions.
Once again Revan force techniques made Bane powerful. Revan came from a time of war a war the consisted of force users both dark and light. All quotes concerning Revan let us know that he was not on his ass like Sidious but participated in the war.
Urm. What?
Really. The Jedi Civil War was nothing like the later conflict which ended on Ruusan. You didn't have armies of force user clashing against each other. Revan's forces did focus on assassination or conversion of the Jedi, rather then engaging them in direct battle. And from what we see, the only Jedi really involved in the conflict is Bastilla with her battle meditation. Aside of that?
Let me think here, what is canon is that Revan was a Sith Lord. So we have a Sith Lord that did not master the basic dark techniques and started a war in which he converted many Jedi to Sith. Yes, I can see how it would be hard to see what Revan would use his force powers to accomplish. I’m sure he plundered Malachor V for fun. Seriously you need to play the game again.
Actually he needs to read "Path of Destruction" since the only stuff in the came that is canon is the storyline, which doesn't define Revan's force abilities.
See it is statements like this that people who support Revan are to suppose to take seriously. All of a sudden Revan is unlike any force user before him. If you do not like Revan fine, but please with statements such as this.
I think the actual point was, that the Video Game characters are hyped beyond believe and equipped with ridiculous powers, just to give the player the opportunity to play some powerful individuals. Think about Starkiller being equipped with the potential to become the most powerful force user ever - this in a universe where you have people conceived by midi-chlorians running around. Absolute bullshit, if you ask me. Which is also the case for some actions you can produce while playing the KotoR games. I mean, what the hell? The Exile apparently took out the entire population of the Trayus Academy, sometimes facing off against three or more force using opponents at once - all on her own. You really consider that to be realistic using the "normal" rules of the SW universe? I don't.
Originally posted by Kotor3
No one is stating Revan is more powerful than Sidious. Also you have to have more than Basic force powers to lead thousands of Sith and Jedi. Are you forgetting about Bane who became strong from Revan's teaching and the sith assassins which Revan started. Revan was able to defeat someone who knew force lighting and force drain to name a few while being empowered by the SF with basic force abilities. Wonderful logic!Revan did not lose the duel, unless you can provide a canon quote stating so. The fight was interrupted by Bastilla, not the same as a lose.
I understand you do not like Revan either.
Originally posted by truejedi
Kotor, you clearly AREN'T getting my point, in my personal opinion, i would place Revan somewhere along the lines of Bane, Dooku, and much more powerful than the exile, >than nihilus Sion> than almost any sith ever, he woudl definitly be in my top 5. I don't think he could defeat the "big 4" as of ROTS (anakin, obi-wan, mace, yoda) besides that, he could probably take on anyone in the order. (qui-gonn's my 5 on that jedi list, so i would put Revan about even with him)My opinion counts for NOTHING though. You have come forth with flawless logic, that a sith lord would DEFINITLY know the usual force powers. I don't mind that, my point is, you can't prove it. and what count as the usual force powers? (lightning, shove, choke?) those really don't help his case as a powerful force user.
I would be all for a third KOTOR game that makes Revan the greatest Sith of all-time, i really wouldn't mind. He's probably my favorite Sith south of Vader. You just can't prove it right now. You have to be able to see that, i mean, don't you? Well, let me put that another way, You can't PROVE ANYTHING about him right now, but the most you can make us assume is that he wasn't below average.
We don't know how much knowledge bane gained from the Revan holocron vs. what he gained from the other holocrons, so you can't really put a measure on his knowledge that way either.
btw, you act like i don't like revan, or KOTOR. I love both. I'd love a KOTOR 3, if it came out on a console only, i might go buy a console, thats how much i like it. I'm just a little more realistic about what we can glean about a video game character from mix-n-match force powers from a menu of choices...
Finally, there was a 67% chance that Revan NEVER used a lightsaber very well. The game was made for one of three modes of combat:
Soldier, in that one, Revan WOULD be a skilled, dominant lightsaber duelist, no problem,
2nd, Scoundrel: A class that favored blasters and explosives, making the scoundrel smart enough to use droids in many situations to avoid combat entirely. If a scoundrel, on should assume revan used blasters, its only fair.
3rd, scouts DEFINITLY favor explosives and alternate methods of fighting other than head-on battles. In that case, explosives probably would be the weapon of choice, with blasters second, based on skill dispersal.There you have it, only 1 in 3 would definitely favor using a melee weapon. I can't see how you called my original statement about him possibly using a blaster or explosive combination as a primary weapon choice "ridiculous"
Ok, I apologize for the remark about you not liking Revan. I do understand that was your opinion however I do not agree with everything you said. I believe the game allows us to draw some logical conclusions about Revan and that is why I listed A.C.S. remarks.
If my logic is flawed that a Sith Lord who ruled over thousands would have to know more than the basic force techniques, please correct me by stating a sith lord who did rule over thousands and did not know or only knew the basic techniques of the force.
Also Revan fight with Malak on SF is mention as a duel between them two. Revan might have used many things however we do know that Malak knew force lighting, choke, and force drain. Logic would say that a person would a least have to know techniques and more than the basic ones to defeat a dark force user on SF with those skills.
Originally posted by Borbarad
The very point is that Dooku and Sidious [or anybody else for that matter] isn't known for carrying an entire bunch of explosives and medi-packs around in combat. Or let me rephrase that: It is unlikely that Revan archieved the things he did by the use of such weapons. But then it's also unlikely, that he let's six members of his crew stay at a ship without reason [three person party limit].And what remains in form of canon is basically Revan's fights against people who's own power is defined by their standing in comparison to Revan - who himself is an unknown.
I understand Borbarad. Question how would we define Malak's power? Markos Ragnos is view as powerful because he ruled the sith for 100 years. Malak knew force drain which is not a technique many sith lords knew according to my knowledge at least in the PT era.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I think the actual point was, that the Video Game characters are hyped beyond believe and equipped with ridiculous powers, just to give the player the opportunity to play some powerful individuals. Think about Starkiller being equipped with the potential to become the most powerful force user ever - this in a universe where you have people conceived by midi-chlorians running around. Absolute bullshit, if you ask me. Which is also the case for some actions you can produce while playing the KotoR games. I mean, what the hell? The Exile apparently took out the entire population of the Trayus Academy, sometimes facing off against three or more force using opponents at once - all on her own. You really consider that to be realistic using the "normal" rules of the SW universe? I don't.
Well I guess we need a novel on Revan. Kotor3 game definitely is not going to help any arguments here since the games are not looked at as any reliable source to gain info on a character.