The Venus Project

Originally posted by lord xyz
Amazingly, we can play music without the need of money.

Do we charge our family members when we're playing a piece to them?

so in your world art is limited to what people produce for their families?

Originally posted by lord xyz
No. As we have the resources.

It is possible to eliminate oil.

how many constructed wind turbines do you think there are? How many geo thermal plants?

astoundingly, we will need to invest huge amounts of oil into the design and manufacturing of these devices.

your future depends on the proper use of the oil we have now in order to create new energy technologies.

Originally posted by lord xyz
http://www.thevenusproject.com/vp_jac/interview.htm Try here.

I'm actually passingly familiar with Fresco's work and ideas, and he used to be a technocrat.

not to sound extreme, but the man is essentially proposing the most intensive nanny state I could imagine. People are looked after by technology? pffft. Technology is a tool of man, not the other way around.

I'm also not really a fan of the whole "we are one with nature" stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of problems with the party line of technocrats too, so this isn't like an ego thing. I just tend to think the Venus Project represents nothing more than techno-communism.

Originally posted by lord xyz
That would be what happens in the venus project.

I find it quite obnoxious that any example of positive technological change I give that doesn't fit your model is dismissed as if you had already thought of it first.

The interview says nothing of practical technological efficiency, you have not mentioned it in any realistic sense (other than to propose that the manufacture of space stations and autonomous vehicles is easy). Fresco proposes revolutionary change, he is not proposing rational technological integration. ****, one of his "phases" is to try and construct a top down city, as if it is even remotely relevant. What, we are going to just relocate every person on the planet into new cities?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Our culture needs redesigning.

revolutions are nearly uniformly bad

EDIT: I'm going to back off that a little bit: Revolutions which seek to fundamentally change a society normally have more negative outcomes than positive.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Well, if it's clean, efficient and abundant, I see no problem with it.

indeed, I think finding a way to get plastic resins manufacturers to incorporate this technology would be amazing. Both the positive and negative is that the plastic is biodegradable. So, given how disposable plastic stuff is, it will mean less overall garbage, though it also means shorter shelf life for stuff that is more permanent.

also, on the subject of biodegradable. Don't you think that the promotion of home composting would do more to remove the trash burden for far less resources than any attempt to design a self automated trash collection system?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Yeah it is.

Oil is a big industry, people don't see an alternative (due to the monetary system), and none of the alternaitves are looked at thoroughly as everyone uses oil, and it's everywhere, cheaply. People only go for the cheap stuff, as that means more shit for them.

I think you miss my point

we need oil because that is what our cars run on. In 20 years, if all our cars run on something else, we will need it and that will become big business.

It has nothing to do with money, it has to do with infrastructure. You might be correct in assuming that oil is prevalent because it was cheap, but can you point to another fuel that was available at the time oil was integrated into our infrastructure which only greed prevented from becoming prevalent?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess. You argued we could though.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Hmm, I believe I said we have the resources to make it happen (or most anyway), but not an instant change.

interesting

The Venus Project does present itself as a revolutionary movement however

Originally posted by lord xyz
I guess it's more productive to keep the monetary system until TVP can work.

Which won't be until the mid 22nd century according to Lord Roddenberry.

Originally posted by inimalist
so in your world art is limited to what people produce for their families?

Originally posted by inimalist
how many constructed wind turbines do you think there are? How many geo thermal plants?

Originally posted by inimalist
astoundingly, we will need to invest huge amounts of oil into the design and manufacturing of these devices.

your future depends on the proper use of the oil we have now in order to create new energy technologies.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm actually passingly familiar with Fresco's work and ideas, and he used to be a technocrat.

not to sound extreme, but the man is essentially proposing the most intensive nanny state I could imagine. People are looked after by technology? pffft. Technology is a tool of man, not the other way around.

I'm also not really a fan of the whole "we are one with nature" stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of problems with the party line of technocrats too, so this isn't like an ego thing. I just tend to think the Venus Project represents nothing more than techno-communism.

I believe this people looked after technology isn't like a nanny state, more, we have personal slaves.

Originally posted by inimalist
I find it quite obnoxious that any example of positive technological change I give that doesn't fit your model is dismissed as if you had already thought of it first.If your technology isn't as good, it won't be accepted socially, and thus, you'd have to think up a better one.

It's better than you getting money off of your insufficient product and keeping things scarce to maximise profits, and using advertising to sell it to people who don't need it, harming the environment, etc.

[QUOTE=11159971]Originally posted by inimalist
[B]The interview says nothing of practical technological efficiency, you have not mentioned it in any realistic sense (other than to propose that the manufacture of space stations and autonomous vehicles is easy). Fresco proposes revolutionary change, he is not proposing rational technological integration. ****, one of his "phases" is to try and construct a top down city, as if it is even remotely relevant. What, we are going to just relocate every person on the planet into new cities?

Originally posted by inimalist
revolutions are nearly uniformly bad

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed, I think finding a way to get plastic resins manufacturers to incorporate this technology would be amazing. Both the positive and negative is that the plastic is biodegradable. So, given how disposable plastic stuff is, it will mean less overall garbage, though it also means shorter shelf life for stuff that is more permanent.

also, on the subject of biodegradable. Don't you think that the promotion of home composting would do more to remove the trash burden for far less resources than any attempt to design a self automated trash collection system?

Originally posted by inimalist
I think you miss my point

we need oil because that is what our cars run on. In 20 years, if all our cars run on something else, we will need it and that will become big business.

Did you say if everyone used electric, oil will become big business.

Originally posted by inimalist
It has nothing to do with money, it has to do with infrastructure. You might be correct in assuming that oil is prevalent because it was cheap, but can you point to another fuel that was available at the time oil was integrated into our infrastructure which only greed prevented from becoming prevalent?

Originally posted by inimalist
interesting

The Venus Project does present itself as a revolutionary movement however

Hopefully we'll draw some aliens to run for political office. I say YES!!

Originally posted by lord xyz
It seems pretty communist to me as well, at first. But then I saw it as a peaceful society where everyone's goal is to make life better.

Which would make it almost exactly like communism and still would never work.

Originally posted by Bardock42

I did. But I refer to things you said. The site is hardly surfable. There are illogical walls of text, pictures made to look futuristic by putting on the maximum amount of black windows, and advertisements for their plans and programs and cds, and shit. If you want to argue it, produce the texts that support it, not say "look at the site, look at the site" ... that's very Deano of you. Then again, you are one of those conspiracy nuts, aren't you? (rhetorical)

chill the **** out MAN. or i'll come over to germany and take your soul

Originally posted by Deano
chill the **** out MAN. or i'll come over to germany and take your soul

so i bought these plane tickets for nothing then did i ? thanks a bunch

Originally posted by Deano
so i bought these plane tickets for nothing then did i ? thanks a bunch

Business people.

XYZ:

How familiar are you with Anarcho-syndicalist philosophy?

I think it might be right up your ally 🙂 Stuff like wage slavery sounds a lot like what TVP bases its ideas on.

Not a clue.

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
You have to look at this as a realist. This cannot happen without bloodshed or war.

Of course people look towards politicians for answers and leadership. Why else has this system been around for centuries?

Actually its been around for about 2 centuries, really not very long at all, and saying people look to politicians for answers is a big generalization.

As for capitalism, that has been around for 2 centuries as well... kind of a strange coincidence...

Regarding the Venus project, the reason economics/capitalism isn't incorporated into it is because there will a different kind of economy, that has nothing to do with money as the lubricant between buyers and sellers.

The trade will be through resource and information. If necessities are distributed by a cybernetic core to each individual via automation, that will cut out a lot of the cost right there, and to maintain fairness there would need to be a pseudo-bartering system required.

So you provide your thoughts and opinions on how to improve things and you obtain food, water, energy and materials to bring your ideas to fruition. There is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone, and enough raw materials and labor to make this possible a thousand times over. The simple fact is, money is obsolete and the economy is evolving, already information is becoming a main currency, the question is, will it be used to promote joy or fear?

Windswept gets it.

Originally posted by inimalist
so in your world art is limited to what people produce for their families?

how many constructed wind turbines do you think there are? How many geo thermal plants?

astoundingly, we will need to invest huge amounts of oil into the design and manufacturing of these devices.

your future depends on the proper use of the oil we have now in order to create new energy technologies.

Ok, well to your first question, the idea was more that if you can get humans to treat each other like a loving family (and yes it happens) then you have freedom.

As for your statement about renewable energy, try looking up nanograss, solar panels and a new kind of wind power at this site -> www dot magenn dot com (sorry i'm new, and not a spammer)

Oil is irrelevant we're just made to believe its essential (lol essential oils)

Everything is made of energy, therefore if you know how to make something from pure energy, you can make anything.

Sounds crazy and impossible, but so was flying.

Originally posted by Windswept7
Ok, well to your first question, the idea was more that if you can get humans to treat each other like a loving family (and yes it happens) then you have freedom.

non-sequitur

why don't you elaborate on that

Originally posted by Windswept7
As for your statement about renewable energy, try looking up nanograss, solar panels and a new kind of wind power at this site -> www dot magenn dot com (sorry i'm new, and not a spammer)

None of which currently exist to meet our energy needs.

Originally posted by Windswept7
Oil is irrelevant we're just made to believe its essential (lol essential oils)

Tomorrow morning when I get up, what other fuel is there going to be to put into my car and make the power in my home work?

Your issue, much like XYZs, is that your eyes are bigger than your stomach.

Everyone can imagine utopian sci-fi worlds. If that was all that was necessary to create human peace and prosperity, we would be there by now.

Unfortunately, these ideas propose little, if any, policy options for hear and now, and just rely on other people (re: scientists) to answer the problems in your system.

Originally posted by Windswept7
Everything is made of energy, therefore if you know how to make something from pure energy, you can make anything.

pure energy is a meaningless scientific term

Proposing matter-to-energy conversion as a potential way to replace oil is the exact same as saying "We will have wizards do it"

lol, and what do you mean "Construct something from energy"?

Originally posted by Windswept7
Sounds crazy and impossible, but so was flying.

great, keep supporting a bunch of fairy tales so removed from reality that they promote absolutely no potential action for policy change that would affect the lives of people.

Originally posted by inimalist

Your issue, much like XYZs, is that your eyes are bigger than your stomach.

Everyone can imagine utopian sci-fi worlds. If that was all that was necessary to create human peace and prosperity, we would be there by now.

Unfortunately, these ideas propose little, if any, policy options for hear and now, and just rely on other people (re: scientists) to answer the problems in your system.

The most important point is the monetary system produces scarcity, the venus project produces abundance.

Originally posted by lord xyz
The idea is, if we have a change in conscienceness, we can get that utopia much much faster than our current system which instists on using out-dated ideologies.

oh, a change in consciousness, now I get it, thanks for putting it into such unambiguous terms 🙂

Originally posted by lord xyz
The most important point is the monetary system produces scarcity, the venus project produces abundance.

how does the monetary system create scarcity in, say, the Mona Lisa?

How does the monetary system create scarcity in, say, everything else?