The Venus Project

Originally posted by inimalist
oh, a change in consciousness, now I get it, thanks for putting it into such unambiguous terms 🙂

how does the monetary system create scarcity in, say, the Mona Lisa?

How does the monetary system create scarcity in, say, everything else?

The monetary system produces scarcity in diamonds for example.

If a diamond mine finds 10 times the normal supply, they'd lose their money, as the value drops. Therefore the incentive is to burn diamonds in order to put the value up.

We have enough food to feed everyone, but because it requires money to feed everyone, we can't, making food scarce.

Scarcity is already present in the mona lisa, and that is a problem in the venus project, I must admit.

bad example

the price of diamonds on market is not related to the supply, as diamonds are not a normally priced item.

High class items actually have the problem where, if their price drops, demand drops. Finding more diamonds would be a bumper crop, because there is a lower limit to how much you can sell them for, because there is a point where they become unattractive just because a low cost makes people think they are cheep.

The problem with food is distribution. And like I said, I don't support communism, or any system where a central authority is given the power to distribute food to people. A system powerful enough to give you what you want is also powerful enough to take it away.

Originally posted by inimalist
non-sequitur

why don't you elaborate on that

None of which currently exist to meet our energy needs.

Tomorrow morning when I get up, what other fuel is there going to be to put into my car and make the power in my home work?

Your issue, much like XYZs, is that your eyes are bigger than your stomach.

Everyone can imagine utopian sci-fi worlds. If that was all that was necessary to create human peace and prosperity, we would be there by now.

Unfortunately, these ideas propose little, if any, policy options for hear and now, and just rely on other people (re: scientists) to answer the problems in your system.

pure energy is a meaningless scientific term

Proposing matter-to-energy conversion as a potential way to replace oil is the exact same as saying "We will have wizards do it"

lol, and what do you mean "Construct something from energy"?

great, keep supporting a bunch of fairy tales so removed from reality that they promote absolutely no potential action for policy change that would affect the lives of people.

I'm sorry I showed any idealism at all, I didn't realize it was such a weakness to find a positive goal for humanity.

A loving family.. hmm that seems like a society that would love unconditionally, and HOW do we do that you ask?

Start smiling =)

Some people may seem like grumpy pricks but challenge yourself, make them smile, make their day, it's really fun, you should try it. As soon as you accomplish your goal you know you've started something good, that will ripple out they will then be in a good mood and they will make other people smile and so on.

Now smiling is a long way from unconditional love, but it's something you can do right now and it DOES work, when people start being happy they will spread that joy to other people and its INFECTIOUS!

Also if you disagree with them, agree to disagree! If you have different opinions to someone, that's GREAT! Why?
Because it makes life interesting and fun, why do you use these forums? Because you love debating, giving your opinions and ideas. If you didn't criticise me, then how would I learn? We should celebrate being different because that's what makes humans awesome.

As for your second point, awesome, your car runs on petrol, did you know that you can get it converted to gas? Did you know that you can get a solar panel put on your roof, and any energy you don't use, say while your at work, gets put back into the power grid, and you get money for it! Electric cars are quickly becoming available, and even though it is a lightweight prototype,
au dot youtube dot com/watch?v=1NCOPLEJOl0 (sorry, new not a spam-er)
The Helios solar powered aircraft opens amazing possibilities.

Do your research, find out what humans are REALLY capable of, if you hold on so tight to your critical views, you may miss something beautiful.

This is not some far off sci-fi dream, this is actual technology we have RIGHT NOW, feasible affordable, and self replenishing, the reason we aren't there right now is because people don't believe the technology exists or as you said inamalist,

"If that was all that was necessary to create human peace and prosperity, we would be there by now."

But this is untrue because in Australia there are communities that are self sustained and fully supportive to each other using the technology and information that we have available today.

As for the creating matter from energy, yes that's quite a way off, but it is theoretically possible, and it is something we will eventually be able to do when we understand physics better, perhaps when we unify the laws we will have some breakthroughs.

Anything is possible, because anything is possible.

Never underestimate anything, negative or positive.

Hav fun =)

Originally posted by inimalist
bad example

the price of diamonds on market is not related to the supply, as diamonds are not a normally priced item.

High class items actually have the problem where, if their price drops, demand drops. Finding more diamonds would be a bumper crop, because there is a lower limit to how much you can sell them for, because there is a point where they become unattractive just because a low cost makes people think they are cheep.

The problem with food is distribution. And like I said, I don't support communism, or any system where a central authority is given the power to distribute food to people. A system powerful enough to give you what you want is also powerful enough to take it away.

It's not Communist China.

Originally posted by lord xyz
The system tries to make us self sustaining, no super power giving us everything.

It's not Communist China.

How would we get people to sort through our garbage? Who would work in coal mines. On oil rafters. Who'd work in a factory 8 hours a day? Who'd clean the shit of our elders?

If your answer is robots, then cute, but then it is not possible yet, is it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
How would it work though?

How would we get people to sort through our garbage? Who would work in coal mines. On oil rafters. Who'd work in a factory 8 hours a day? Who'd clean the shit of our elders?

Donations.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How would it work though?

How would we get people to sort through our garbage? Who would work in coal mines. On oil rafters. Who'd work in a factory 8 hours a day? Who'd clean the shit of our elders?

If your answer is robots, then cute, but then it is not possible yet, is it?

So, it's a bit of a grey area.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Donations.

I doubt donations would cov....oh, I get it, haha.

Totally different thing, of course, still funny.

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, we would have to build robots before this society is taken, however, this society would make sure the robots are built.

So, it's a bit of a grey area.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That sounds a bit of idiocy, not grey area.

Originally posted by lord xyz
The system tries to make us self sustaining, no super power giving us everything.

-enough food is produced on the planet currently to feed everyone

-the reason people are not being fed is because the food is privately owned and is then sent to restaurant chains, grocery stores, etc. In third world nations, it is largely because the food is being shipped to the West.

-In some degree of agreement with what you said, food is scarce because it is privately owned (the reason this isn't total agreement is because you said money causes scarcity, not that private ownership causes scarcity). Because of private ownership of the crops by the farmer or by the corporation who pays their bills, food goes where the owner wants it to go and is not necessarily distributed to those who need it.

-Because the scarcity is caused by private distribution of food (as there is already enough, it is not physically scarce) eliminating this scarcity would involve removing the private ownership of food OR the spontaneous decision of the people who own the food to give it out based on individual need rather than for profit motivated reasons.

-The last option is, I'm sure we can agree, silly. Farmers and corporations are not going to toil and invest huge resource wealth into growing food which they do not profit from. It is a lose-lose situation for a farmer. They lose time and resources, then they lose the product of their labour.

-Thus, the only way to ensure proper distribution of food to everyone is to create a mechanism by which the production and distribution of food are controlled. The food has to be collected by someone, the decision of who gets what has to be made by someone, and the distribution has to be made by someone. Call it "the system" or "dear leader", that is too much power being concentrated in whatever executive body there would be. In many ways it is "techno-feudalism".

Originally posted by lord xyz
It's not Communist China.

careful...

Originally posted by Windswept7
I'm sorry I showed any idealism at all, I didn't realize it was such a weakness to find a positive goal for humanity.

I didn't realize that posting your opinion on an internet discussion forum meant that you didn't want people to comment on your thoughts

Originally posted by Windswept7
A loving family.. hmm that seems like a society that would love unconditionally, and HOW do we do that you ask?

Start smiling =)

Some people may seem like grumpy pricks but challenge yourself, make them smile, make their day, it's really fun, you should try it. As soon as you accomplish your goal you know you've started something good, that will ripple out they will then be in a good mood and they will make other people smile and so on.

Now smiling is a long way from unconditional love, but it's something you can do right now and it DOES work, when people start being happy they will spread that joy to other people and its INFECTIOUS!

Also if you disagree with them, agree to disagree! If you have different opinions to someone, that's GREAT! Why?
Because it makes life interesting and fun, why do you use these forums? Because you love debating, giving your opinions and ideas. If you didn't criticise me, then how would I learn? We should celebrate being different because that's what makes humans awesome.

gibberish

also, doesn't address how family=freedom.

Originally posted by Windswept7
As for your second point, awesome, your car runs on petrol, did you know that you can get it converted to gas? Did you know that you can get a solar panel put on your roof, and any energy you don't use, say while your at work, gets put back into the power grid, and you get money for it! Electric cars are quickly becoming available, and even though it is a lightweight prototype,
au dot youtube dot com/watch?v=1NCOPLEJOl0 (sorry, new not a spam-er)
The Helios solar powered aircraft opens amazing possibilities.

my point: Oil is essential because it is what our infrastructure and technology run on

your point: oil isn't essential because there are other options possible in the future

my point: the future isn't now. Right now oil is necessary.

your point: look at this stuff that isn't ready right now.

do you see where you are missing what I'm saying? I've never said anything against alternative fuels. Oil is necessary because the alternatives do not exist today to replace it. They might some day, and then oil wouldn't be necessary, but now it is. Its really easy.

Originally posted by Windswept7
Do your research, find out what humans are REALLY capable of,

ironic in the extreme. Har Har!

Originally posted by Windswept7
if you hold on so tight to your critical views, you may miss something beautiful.

oh right, so I should open my mind to the point where my brains fall out

Originally posted by Windswept7
This is not some far off sci-fi dream, this is actual technology we have RIGHT NOW, feasible affordable, and self replenishing, the reason we aren't there right now is because people don't believe the technology exists or as you said inamalist,

I'm sorry sir, but if you think there is an affordable and mature fuel source that could, if the political will existed, be immediately adopted to completely eliminate our dependence on oil, you have drank some terrible kool-aide.

The technological advances that could put solar there are likely to happen in 5-10 years. That doesn't even begin to deal with the logistics of changing the entire infrastructure of the developed world.

Originally posted by Windswept7
"If that was all that was necessary to create human peace and prosperity, we would be there by now."

But this is untrue because in Australia there are communities that are self sustained and fully supportive to each other using the technology and information that we have available today.

I am aware of such groups, and they offer a glimpse of what might be possible for humanity.

Unfortunately, they don't have to worry about cities full of millions of people who don't necessarily share their world view.

100 like minded communists, anarchists, fascists, or whatever will be able to make any community work. At large numbers it becomes difficult. It is also a little glib to call them independent communities, or to use them as an example of non-monetary economies, as they live and exist within the normal economy.

Originally posted by Windswept7
As for the creating matter from energy, yes that's quite a way off, but it is theoretically possible, and it is something we will eventually be able to do when we understand physics better, perhaps when we unify the laws we will have some breakthroughs.

our money would be better spent looking into Lalzenthorpes 6th book of arcane majiks, as there are conjurations which propose the divination from one substance into pure majikal substance

or alchemy, where we may discover how to turn any substance into another through laws of mystic force

It is so cynical of you to say "oh well, I don't have to make an argument, science will do it for me". Obnoxious even

Originally posted by Windswept7
Anything is possible, because anything is possible.

Never underestimate anything, negative or positive.

Hav fun =)

jibber jabber

Originally posted by inimalist
-enough food is produced on the planet currently to feed everyone

-the reason people are not being fed is because the food is privately owned and is then sent to restaurant chains, grocery stores, etc. In third world nations, it is largely because the food is being shipped to the West.

-In some degree of agreement with what you said, food is scarce because it is privately owned (the reason this isn't total agreement is because you said money causes scarcity, not that private ownership causes scarcity). Because of private ownership of the crops by the farmer or by the corporation who pays their bills, food goes where the owner wants it to go and is not necessarily distributed to those who need it.

-Because the scarcity is caused by private distribution of food (as there is already enough, it is not physically scarce) eliminating this scarcity would involve removing the private ownership of food OR the spontaneous decision of the people who own the food to give it out based on individual need rather than for profit motivated reasons.

Originally posted by inimalist
-The last option is, I'm sure we can agree, silly. Farmers and corporations are not going to toil and invest huge resource wealth into growing food which they do not profit from. It is a lose-lose situation for a farmer. They lose time and resources, then they lose the product of their labour.

Q:
In a system where everything is available without a price tag, would this eliminate incentive?

A:

The free-enterprise system does create incentive to achieve, however it also breeds the incentive for corruption, theft, and greed. Our aim is to encourage a new incentive system, one no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. Today, financial barriers place enormous limitations on innovation, individual creativity, and personal incentive. In The Venus Project, money would not be required to help one achieve or create, as facilities would be made available to serve everyone's needs.

We do advocate that all people have access to all goods and services, medical care, education, shelter, food and so forth.

It is not enough to provide the necessities of life alone. We feel that our proposals will generate a new incentive system. Human beings need challenges in order to evolve intellectually and maintain a high level of curiosity and a need to overcome shortages. The type of education that we advocate is the intelligent use of existing resources and the protection of the environment.

The shameful thing about the free enterprise system is the wasted lives of many people - young girls standing behind counters in department stores waiting for a sale, men and woman working in industrial plants using a small part of their mental capabilities. In the schools of tomorrow people will learn how to relate to others intelligently, cooperate and share ideas to help make the world a far better place, and not to squander resources in wars and military expenditures.

If you fail to grasp the significance consider this: when the states joined together the militias disappeared at the borders and Americans were free of territorial disputes. This same process can be applied globally where all science and technology are utilized for the benefit of all of Earth's inhabitants.

These concepts are based upon years of cumulative data. If we fail to do our own thinking and conform to established social institutions, others will do our thinking for us. I also believe in the incentive system but not the shallow, self-centered incentives perpetuated by our monetary-based institutions.

The question "why are we here?" is a philosophical question which has no reference. Attempts have been made by theologians to answer this. Our answer is that we are here as a by-product of evolution. The scientific response is not a question of "why are we here," it is "what are the processes that generate different life forms." We also go into this in the book The Best That Money Can't Buy, by Jacque Fresco, above on page 19 in the chapter "From Superstition To Science."

You have been brought up to believe people are inspired by rewards or money.
In essence all of the people we have admired in the past, Michael Angelo, da Vinci, Bell, the Wright Brothers, Darwin, and many others worked because they were interested in problem solving, not financial gain. This in some cases was a by-product. Usually money-oriented people become business men, or stock brokers; they are rarely creative. I have always felt threatened by people whose sole motivation is financial gain. On islands in the South Pacific, people had more than enough resources. Although banana, coconuts, fish and breadfruit were abundant, the natives worked continuously building navigation equipment, canoes, huts, and weaved cloth. Although no money was used, their incentive improved their standard of living.

In the early days in America a man and wife could build a log cabin in several months. Today it takes 30 years or so to pay off a house with the additional funds to bankers and others that actually have nothing to do with the building of the house.

If you examine your statements carefully of people who have access to all the necessities of life you will find that many wealthy people do not eat 25 meals a day even though they have access to it and they do not stuff their environment with hundreds of musical instruments and accumulate hundreds of cars. It is not the availability of resources that is disturbing to people, it is the lack of resources that is responsible for most crimes, embezzlement, deception of all kinds, etc.

Consider this when few nations control most of the worlds resources and exploit other nations with their positions of differential advantage.

All of the technical staff and everyone else will have access to a very high standard of living; the incentive, which will propel people, is the end of war, territorial disputes, economic hardship, debt, and the basis for most crimes as they will all be eliminated. In this new society as proposed by The Venus Project, the environment in which people are raised and educated will be based upon the fundamental principles of science and the comprehensive knowledge of the interrelationship between people and the environment, which sustains all life.

Originally posted by inimalist
-Thus, the only way to ensure proper distribution of food to everyone is to create a mechanism by which the production and distribution of food are controlled. The food has to be collected by someone, the decision of who gets what has to be made by someone, and the distribution has to be made by someone. Call it "the system" or "dear leader", that is too much power being concentrated in whatever executive body there would be. In many ways it is "techno-feudalism".

Originally posted by inimalist
careful...

Originally posted by inimalist
our money would be better spent looking into Lalzenthorpes 6th book of arcane majiks, as there are conjurations which propose the divination from one substance into pure majikal substance

Die! Die! Die! The word is magic. redhulk

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Die! Die! Die! The word is magic. redhulk

lol, I thought it made the sarcasm more poignant

Originally posted by lord xyz
Private ownership is a symptom of the monetary system.

I thought you supported private property?

Even if there were negative aspects of private ownership, it still is far more preferable to a system where things are communally owned.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Money is the reason we're selfish, because we're brought up to believe we need money to be better.

do you believe in evolution?

Originally posted by lord xyz
From thezeitgeistmovement.com

lol, you want me to argue with a movie?... /sigh. I'll try to come up with something. The fact that the passage you posted has 0 references (aside from mention of a book written by the person who started the Venus project), to me at least, is a little tell tale of the quality.

Originally posted by lord xyz
The project works to make things abundant. Everyone would have ampel food etc.

the purpose of that post was not to say food wouldn't be abundant, it was to show that there had to be a group of people controlling the distribution.

That group has immense powers, akin to what communists propose with regard to government involvement in industry.

Originally posted by lord xyz
lol

I only skimmed through the passage. You are right, it doesn't represent communist China, it represents Feudal Europe.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How would it work though?

How would we get people to sort through our garbage? Who would work in coal mines. On oil rafters. Who'd work in a factory 8 hours a day? Who'd clean the shit of our elders?

If your answer is robots, then cute, but then it is not possible yet, is it?

Yes eventually robots will take those mundane jobs, but like you said that is impractical at the moment, the Venus project should be treated as exactly that - a project, rather than a life raft. It is a vision for the future, and is becoming more possible every day, through the transitional period we will still need shit cleaners etc. but they will be phased out when we have the ability to.

One example is retail assistants (i.e. check-out chicks/guys) now you can self serve. All with the aid of a machine and there is no reason to have that monotonus job anymore. Its been happening all throughout the last century so why is it so hard to believe?

Originally posted by inimalist
I thought you supported private property?

Even if there were negative aspects of private ownership, it still is far more preferable to a system where things are communally owned.

do you believe in evolution?

lol, you want me to argue with a movie?... /sigh. I'll try to come up with something. The fact that the passage you posted has 0 references (aside from mention of a book written by the person who started the Venus project), to me at least, is a little tell tale of the quality.

the purpose of that post was not to say food wouldn't be abundant, it was to show that there had to be a group of people controlling the distribution.

That group has immense powers, akin to what communists propose with regard to government involvement in industry.

I only skimmed through the passage. You are right, it doesn't represent communist China, it represents Feudal Europe.

Originally posted by Windswept7
Yes eventually robots will take those mundane jobs, but like you said that is impractical at the moment, the Venus project should be treated as exactly that - a project, rather than a life raft. It is a vision for the future, and is becoming more possible every day, through the transitional period we will still need shit cleaners etc. but they will be phased out when we have the ability to.

One example is retail assistants (i.e. check-out chicks/guys) now you can self serve. All with the aid of a machine and there is no reason to have that monotonus job anymore. Its been happening all throughout the last century so why is it so hard to believe?

Originally posted by Windswept7
One example is retail assistants (i.e. check-out chicks/guys) now you can self serve. All with the aid of a machine and there is no reason to have that monotonus job anymore. Its been happening all throughout the last century so why is it so hard to believe?

another bad example (I guess it was XYZ who used diamonds)

many of these "self checkouts" are being removed from stores in my town for several reasons. They are temperamental, are VERY easy to steal from, and often take far longer than a trained individual to ring through. (not to mention that these checkouts require a cashier to watch them, and potentially several to deal with individual problems).

Also, there are MANY people who feed their kids from the pay they get ringing in a till. In a world before the elimination of capital, are we to suppose the working class will have no way to earn money as robots are implemented?

I agree that technology will replace certain jobs and provide services, I think you just pointed to one that isn't working well. Its like electronic voting. Tech is cool and all, there are just some things that appear to work best with human interaction.

(Actually, to extend the metaphore, electronic tills support, at least in this view, technocracy. Implementing technology OR policy changes to make things work properly. Rather than depending on technology to solve problems, working on making things more efficent can be better than technological solutions. lol, or maybe I'm just trying to usurp pragmatism).