The Venus Project

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, it's more of a compromise. Saying it's forcing us what to do is like saying the truth is forcing us to believe it, rather than letting us believe what we want.

That's insane.

TVP only works if socialism works (it doesn't as shown by history and studies of human nature) or you have an all powerful fascistic leadership to control everything (which, while a wonderful idea, would rapidly become corrupt).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's insane.

TVP only works if socialism works (it doesn't as shown by history and studies of human nature) or you have an all powerful fascistic leadership to control everything (which, while a wonderful idea, would rapidly become corrupt).

First of all, socialism has never been practised. What you're thinking of state-socialism.

I've already stated earlier in this thread there is no human nature, greed's as natural as wearing clothes, as driving a car.

Fascism is not what TVP proposes.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Bullshit.

First of all, socialism has never been practised. What you're thinking of state-socialism.

I've already stated earlier in this thread there is no human nature, greed's as natural as wearing clothes, as driving a car.

Fascism is not what TVP proposes.

Socialism, at least, has been practiced in a few forms. I guess what you might be thinking of is minor state intervention for social causes. Which is not "socialism".

Originally posted by lord xyz
I've already stated earlier in this thread there is no human nature,

what do you mean by this? Are you saying that people are so variable that there is no way to accurately generalize their behaviour, or that human behaviour is 100% determined by social factors?

Originally posted by lord xyz
greed's as natural as wearing clothes, as driving a car.

if the human mind is a product of evolution, what is unnatural about clothing or cars?

Originally posted by inimalist
what do you mean by this? Are you saying that people are so variable that there is no way to accurately generalize their behaviour, or that human behaviour is 100% determined by social factors?

if the human mind is a product of evolution, what is unnatural about clothing or cars?

Not so much however, due to the internet.

It was more to put greed into that category.

Originally posted by lord xyz
I wouldn't go as far as 100%, but somewhere around 90%. If you were born in Iraq, you'd be hating America and praying to Allah. If you were born in Holland, you'd be very liberal by USA and Canada's standards.

Not so much however, due to the internet.

It was more to put greed into that category.

90% of human behaviour is socially determined?

do you believe this is also true of Chimps and Bonobos?

at which point down the evolutionary ladder do you think animals are more controlled by genetics than their social environment?

EDIT: Holland isn't that liberal compared to Canada. Especially with regards to multi-culturalism.

Originally posted by inimalist
90% of human behaviour is socially determined?

do you believe this is also true of Chimps and Bonobos?

at which point down the evolutionary ladder do you think animals are more controlled by genetics than their social environment?

EDIT: Holland isn't that liberal compared to Canada. Especially with regards to multi-culturalism.

Well, I don't know, we are very different from the other animals, but Peter Joseph (Zeitgeist, Zeitgeist Addendum) believes so.

I don't know.

Fair doos.

Originally posted by Deano
mmmm interesting theory

In sociological terms, cults refer to new religious movements.

"cult" has little if anything to do with "culture" at large, and the argument about definition, in proper sociological terms, come down to what classifies as a religion, and what classifies as new.

XYZ's group is not a cult in any way

Originally posted by inimalist
XYZ's group is not a cult in any way

But they certainly are a buncha nutters.

lol, I'll be a bit more tactful and say I disagree with their ideals, I just figured I'd get all technical about cults (gotta put my education to some use)

I prefer the Rome Project...

Originally posted by dreezy
every form of organization is in theory, a cult . whether its religious, or nonreligious (atheism), corporations, governments or fraternities. its all about people coming together to make a change for the betterment of themselves and\or there offspring. so when you mention the world "cult" also include your beliefs or non beliefs. because no one escapes cult(ure)

Hmm I can see some of your points but isnt the word cult usually derogatorily stamped on organizations, religious movements etc etc that generally have one individual or a elite group at the top benefiting at the expense of there usually vulnerable impressionable rank and file members.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, I'll be a bit more tactful and say I disagree with their ideals, I just figured I'd get all technical about cults (gotta put my education to some use)

IMO, the more important thing about the word "cult" is the connotation rather than the literal meaning.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I prefer the Rome Project...

Yes, yes we've all read the DaVinci Code.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Yes, yes we've all read the DaVinci Code.

Well, since we're all about cults what could be better than some murdering albino monks and disabled old crackpots on the search for ancient Arthurian artifacts?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Well, since we're all about cults what could be better than some murdering albino monks and disabled old crackpots on the search for ancient Arthurian artifacts?

I'm not a crackpot and I'm certainly not disabled. Now onward, we must find Caliburn before the Commie-Nazis do!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
IMO, the more important thing about the word "cult" is the connotation rather than the literal meaning.

well, it certainly does have colloquial meaning, but it also does have an academic meaning.

I tend to slant to the academic one, mainly because I asked my cults prof about it, and he was able to provide examples of mainstream religions that had any attribute commonly attributable to "cults" in the popular media.

Originally posted by JayJohn85
Hmm I can see some of your points but isnt the word cult usually derogatorily stamped on organizations, religious movements etc etc that generally have one individual or a elite group at the top benefiting at the expense of there usually vulnerable impressionable rank and file members.

that definition is far too loose

could you name a few organizations where the people on the top aren't a self interested elite?

also, conversion to cults happens more from people in transition from one time in their life to another, not when they are "vulnerable" or "impressionable" (though the 2 aren't mutually exclusive)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But they certainly are a buncha nutters.

Originally posted by lord xyz
In our eyes, you're the nutters.

Is the group constitution

John Lennon's Imagine?

Well by self interested elite I perhaps should have been more specific because yea your right about your point such an organization doesnt exist but what I meant was beyond the normal self interest or to a higher extreme.

For example that guy on the FBI most wanted list who started his own religion, mostly prompting its members giving him there money and allowing there wifes, daughters, sisters to sleep with him. Anyone he wanted to screw practically.

Another is Tom Cruize getting low end scientologist flunkies to fix up his garden in order to "impress" nicole. I do believe hubbard himself has expressed the fringe benefits of starting your own religion its a damn pity I wasnt more charismatic lol.

I doubt you can compare capitalist or most well established religions being guilty of such blatent exploitation well in this day and age I suppose you could cite history but that is afterall in the past....We are talking about the here and now.