The Strongest Jedi&sith Ever

It reflects Lightning. At least in an experienced user's hands. It's a style/state-of-mind. Like Juyo combined with a mental Force setting (in this case a borderline Dark Side setting).

The position still begs proof. The textual support that Truejedi gave convinced me that it may be possible, but your still going to have to show why your interpretation is correct as opposed to mine.

It's also a literary device to explain why Mace was the only movie-character shown to actually reflect Lightning in a similar manner as a blaster bolt, instead of pooling it in his palm like Yoda.

Mace was also the only movie character in the position where he was being bombarded by a continous stream of lightning, at close range. Obi wan just blocked a short burst when he was fighting Dooku, not to mention if you watch the two scenes Palpatines lightning is *much* more powerful. So if you take all those factors together, Dookus lightning would of dissipated a lot more easily.

And if you watch the scene again, notice that initially the lightning is just being blocked, with arcs going out in all kinds of directions but not at Palpatine. Then Mace moves his lightsaber forward, and angles it at Palpatine, and only then is it being reflected into Palpatine. This is pretty damn conclusive evidence that the angle and position of the lightsaber was the reason for the lightning being misdirected. Remember that in the case of a conflict, the movie takes precedence over the novel, although I havent seen evidence that a conflict even exists from your side of the argument.

As far as Yoda is concerned, thats not comparable because a lightsaber wasnt even being used. Yoda was using the force to stop the lightning and then throw it back at Palpatine. As we all know, if Mace didnt have his lightsaber he would be totally screwed.

"Before he could follow through on his stroke, however, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber in it. Palpatine, suddenly alive with power again, roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord’s hands, and without his blade to catch it the power of Palpatine’s hate struck him full-on."

By the by, I love Picard pics. I lol'd enough to steal that one.

Yep Captain Picard owns. You had the honor of receiving one of my best pics.

EDIT: It's been a while since I read any SW novel, but I think it's stated somewhere that Vapaad not only acts as a foil against another Dark Sider, but bolsters one own inner-darkness into physical (and I guess general) strength and power, without actually succumbing to the Dark Side.

I believe I already posted that quote for you when I responded to Truejedi. It is true that Vaapad channels dark side energies in order to give the user strength. However, saying that Vapaad acts as a foil against another dark sider lacks evidence. Unless you have something else to give me.

I think that this sums up your argument nicely.

However, saying that Vapaad acts as a foil against another dark sider lacks evidence.

I disagree though. Stover made it abundantly clear that Vapaad was doing the reflecting. Here's the proof:

[i]Revenge of the Sith Novelization:
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
[Harrun Kal exposition]
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-
Neither did he have power over it.
Vapaad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle[...]
But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
[talks about shatterpoint]
[battle moves to balcony]
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.
Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

Two main themes: Vaapad reflects fury/hatred/emotion (case one of Vaapad use-see project Holocron)

and the Superconducting loop, especially when referring to lightning.

When looking at the passage, notice that your argument rests on one line: '[...]and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs[...]' while the Vaapad/superconducting loop is emphasized throughout the fight. Also consider that lightning is not attracted to the lightsaber- Raskta Lsu had to twirl her sabers in 'figure eights' in order to catch Bane's lightning. Mace had to be sure that it didn't hit his body before he could worry about sending it back.

I feel that the evidence points to the Superconducting loop theory, especially because the reflection of lightning with a lightsaber has not been replicated in the saga. If it was just a matter of holding the saber a certain way, surely it would have happened before, even if only by accident.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Then Mace moves his lightsaber forward, and angles it at Palpatine, and only then is it being reflected into Palpatine. This is pretty damn conclusive evidence that the angle and position of the lightsaber was the reason for the lightning being misdirected. Remember that in the case of a conflict, the movie takes precedence over the novel, although I havent seen evidence that a conflict even exists from your side of the argument.

This is a ridiculous contention.

First, there is no contradiction. The Revenge of the Sith novelization states that it was the "superconductive loop" from immersion in Vaapad that enabled Windu to absorb and then deflect the lightning. That he had to hold it in a specific position does not contradict that idea.

Second, according to Matthew Stover, George Lucas line edited the novelization personally. Stover has gone on record in an interview that can be provided by Lightsnake that there was nothing in the novel that Lucas didn't want present.

Third, barring even the first two points, the idea that we are to take the movie at its total gospel without keeping circumstances in mind is rather stupid. That would mean that Mace Windu and Palpatine, two of the highest regarded duelists and Force users in the saga, can only move at laughably poor speeds initially and only Sidious learns, in the space of a day, to keep pace with Yoda.

hmm I see you guys just leave troll threads open like this

strongest in what aspect if I may be so free to ask? most skilled, physically strongest, most adept in the force? what did the odd maker of the topic tried to state (can't be bothered actually reading that) 😛

Originally posted by parvati120
hmm I see you guys just leave troll threads open like this

strongest in what aspect if I may be so free to ask? most skilled, physically strongest, most adept in the force? what did the odd maker of the topic tried to state (can't be bothered actually reading that) 😛

He's (she?) not human. You can ignore BOOG(er). We're still testing to determine if it is a Gideon Sock (you know I'm kidding- chillax), a troll, a twelve year old, or a spambot. My money's on the spambot.

The topic itself was not without merit, however. As long as BOOG stays away, it is a reasonably good realm of discussion.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I think that this sums up your argument nicely.

I disagree though. Stover made it abundantly clear that Vapaad was doing the reflecting. Here's the proof:

Two main themes: Vaapad reflects fury/hatred/emotion (case one of Vaapad use-see project Holocron)

and the Superconducting loop, especially when referring to lightning.

When looking at the passage, notice that your argument rests on one line: '[...]and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs[...]' while the Vaapad/superconducting loop is emphasized throughout the fight. Also consider that lightning is not attracted to the lightsaber- Raskta Lsu had to twirl her sabers in 'figure eights' in order to catch Bane's lightning. Mace had to be sure that it didn't hit his body before he could worry about sending it back.

I feel that the evidence points to the Superconducting loop theory, especially because the reflection of lightning with a lightsaber has not been replicated in the saga. If it was just a matter of holding the saber a certain way, surely it would have happened before, even if only by accident.

Damn, nice points RM. It would be difficult to argue against the all the evidence you have assembled here so I will drop the point of Vaapad not being involved, though surely you will admit that the positioning and angle of the lightsaber played a large role also.

@Gideon

First, there is no contradiction. The Revenge of the Sith novelization states that it was the "superconductive loop" from immersion in Vaapad that enabled Windu to absorb and then deflect the lightning. That he had to hold it in a specific position does not contradict that idea.

Well my point was that the movie establishes a direct cause and effect relationship between Mace moving forward and positioning his lightsaber and the lightning being misdirected into Sidious.

Your right that it doesnt completely rule out Vaapad being involved, and RM has settled that issue.

Second, according to Matthew Stover, George Lucas line edited the novelization personally. Stover has gone on record in an interview that can be provided by Lightsnake that there was nothing in the novel that Lucas didn't want present.

Not arguing with this, but the movie remains higher level canon according to official policy and the policy of the forums which Ush laid down for us.

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences."

Third, barring even the first two points, the idea that we are to take the movie at its total gospel without keeping circumstances in mind is rather stupid. That would mean that Mace Windu and Palpatine, two of the highest regarded duelists and Force users in the saga, can only move at laughably poor speeds initially and only Sidious learns, in the space of a day, to keep pace with Yoda.

I wasnt arguing that nothing outside the movies matter, but obviously if there was a contradiction the movies would take precedent. As I said above though, your right that the movie doesnt nullify the possibility of Vaapad being involved as long as it is agreed that Vaapad wasnt the sole reason.

Edit: this seems confrontational. I didn't mean for it to be like that, but I wasn't willing to compromise on this. Vaapad has to be the cause of this event. It can't be 'part' of it, it is the explanation. It Is Just That Simple.[/edit]

Originally posted by Great Vengeance[quote]you will admit that the positioning and angle of the lightsaber played a large role also.

doesnt nullify the possibility of Vaapad being involved as long as it is agreed that Vaapad wasnt the sole reason.

I will agree that the lightsaber was necessary to deflect the lightning- that is, to protect Windu from the Lightning's effects. The lightsaber prevented the Force Lightning from reaching its target- Mace himself.

I will not agree that the lightning was reflected by the 'position of the saber' unless you can find a parallel in another source. There is no evidence that the defensive stance of a lightsaber- where the saber is held- can reflect force lightning. If the location of the saber matters, then surely there would be an account of a similar event (reflection of lightning) earlier in history, even if only by accident, before the rise of Vaapad.

Here's an example of what would prove you point:

Wishful Thinking:The inexperienced Johun Othone angled his blade to catch the lightning, fortuitously placing it at the ideal angle to reflect the lightning back at its caster.

This does not exist. The reflection was caused solely by Vaapad's unique metaphysical properties. To say that Mace's movements in the movie caused the reflection is to ignore the context of the entire saga, and the complete absence of parallels to this feat without the defender using Vaapad.

Face it: Without Vaapad, no reflection. With Vaapad, metaphysical lightning mirror. Figure out what factor allowed Mace to do it.

I will not agree that the lightning was reflected by the 'position of the saber' unless you can find a parallel in another source. There is no evidence that the defensive stance of a lightsaber- where the saber is held- can reflect force lightning. If the location of the saber matters, then surely there would be an account of a similar event (reflection of lightning) earlier in history, even if only by accident, before the rise of Vaapad.

Going by the movie, when Palpatine first fires his lightning at Mace the arcs are being misdirected in all kinds of directions. Watch the scene again and pause at that point and I promise that you will see what Im talking about. This proves that lightning can be misdirected off a saber, and Vaapad wasnt involved since if it was then the lightning would be directed towards Palpatine in a circuit according to your argument.

Only when Mace steps in closer and angles his blade do the arcs get directed at Palpatine. Its reasonable to assume that this movement of position and angling had alot to do with it then yes?

This does not exist. The reflection was caused solely by Vaapad's unique metaphysical properties. To say that Mace's movements in the movie caused the reflection is to ignore the context of the entire saga, and the complete absence of parallels to this feat without the defender using Vaapad.

Your argument is speculation RM, nowhere is it directly stated that Vaapad can deflect lightning. Based on the evidence you provided I granted that it was reasonable speculation but if I applied the same standards your applying to me then I could still say that it wasnt conclusive.

And there are no parallels to the feat because the Mace vs Palpatine scene is a unique situation in the saga. I already explained to TG why the Obi wan vs Dooku duel doesnt compare, and you wouldnt be able to take a duel out of a novel and judge whether the lightning was reflected or not even if a comparable situation existed.

Edit: this seems confrontational. I didn't mean for it to be like that, but I wasn't willing to compromise on this. Vaapad has to be the cause of this event. It can't be 'part' of it, it is the explanation. It Is Just That Simple.[/edit]

Well we may have to agree to disagree then. Im not going to just ignore the visual evidence of the movie.

Here you go. Excuse the picture quality.

This is evidence of lightning being misdirected off a lightsaber without it being in a Vaapad circuit.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Here you go. Excuse the picture quality.

This is evidence of lightning being misdirected off a lightsaber without it being in a Vaapad circuit.

That said, the lone bolt of Lightning hitting the wall is not hard evidence. It's raw energy, it doesn't get focused into a beam ala Dragonball Z.

Originally posted by Lucien A
I'm not quite getting what you're saying here. Are you trying to use that split second of screen-time which involves Mace having caught the Lightning only like a second before hand as evidence of it not going through a Loop? You know they keep up that Lightning duel for a while (note the Lightning being redirected at Palpatine at that time). The novelization even mentions Mace having to "slip back into Vapaad" or something along those words. It's not like a setting that's always on.

That said, the lone bolt of Lightning hitting the wall is not hard evidence. It's raw energy, it doesn't get focused into a beam ala Dragonball Z.

My point is that the lightning is not going through a Vaapad loop yet it is being misdirected. RM contends that the only way Mace could of reflected the lightning is by Vaapad.

EDIT: It is hard evidence. The whole point of his argument is that Mace was using Vapaad to channel the energies back at Palpatine. If this was the one and only way to deflect lightning than there would be no stray bolts of lightning hitting some random area of wall, it would all be directed back at Palpatine.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
My point is that the lightning is not going through a Vaapad loop yet it is being misdirected. RM contends that the only way Mace could of reflected the lightning is by Vaapad.

EDIT: This may be Star Wars, but take some physics into account. A few stray bolts of Lightning is not indicative of a lack of a superconducting loop. Until you can prove otherwise...

Originally posted by Lucien A
I don't understand why you think that bolt of Lightning is being directed by one of the combatants. Have you ever seen one of those science fair exhibits with the big electric generators? The electricity being discharged flows and covers a surface in seemingly random patterns. An initial burst of such intense Lightning (from Palpatine of all Dark Siders ) at such close range behooves the bolt's route. Like I said, this is rather free flowing raw energy, not concentrated chi beams expertly absorbed into one's palm.

EDIT: This may be Star Wars, but take some physics into account. A few stray bolts of Lightning is not indicative of a lack of a superconducting loop.

I dont see the relevence of your argument TG.

Look at the picture, you clearly see the bolt bouncing off Maces lightsaber. That it was undirected is part of the point. According to your arguments, a non Vaapad user wielding a lightsaber would simply soak up the lightning. This is clearly not the case, and its not being directed to its source, which is Palpatine.

That the lightning is free flowing raw energy reveals weakness in your argument more then anything. You contend that Vaapad was controlling the energy and redirecting it, sort of like the chi beam example that you gave. This is clearly not the case. The lightning bolt was neither soaked up or being controlled by Vaapad, so the only conclusion to be made is that lightning can naturally be redirected by a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I dont see the relevence of your argument TG.

Look at the picture, you clearly see the bolt bouncing off Maces lightsaber. That it was undirected is part of the point. According to your arguments, a non Vaapad user wielding a lightsaber would simply soak up the lightning. This is clearly not the case, and its not being directed to its source, which is Palpatine.

That the lightning is free flowing raw energy reveals weakness in your argument more then anything. You contend that it was Vaapad controlling the energy and redirecting it, sort of like the chi beam example that you gave. This is clearly not the case. The lightning bolt was neither soaked up or being controlled by Vaapad, so the only conclusion to be made is that lightning can naturally be redirected by a lightsaber.

Seriously. C'mon man. Your argument's fallen to using a lone bolt of Lightning to disprove a Force-related point on Vapaad. You're finding it that hard to believe that maybe, just maybe... a bolt of electricity detours? That's either a very weak imagination or a very stretched out one.

EDIT: Just saw your last sentence for the first time, somehow. How many other lightsabers have you seen actually redirecting Force Lightning?

Re-read my... third(?) last post. The novelization mentions something about Mace re-immersing himself in Vapaad just in time to catch the Lightning. Which would be just about when that picture was captured. A bolt or two of Lightning hitting the wall a few feet away isn't exactly a big plot-hole here.

Again I dont see the relevence TG. It doesnt matter whether Mace was immersed in Vaapad or not. According to your argument, the only way lightning can be redirected is if it is being controlled by Vaapad through a circuit. It was not. I dont know how to make it more clear.

Seriously. C'mon man. Your argument's fallen to using a lone bolt of Lightning to disprove a Force-related point on Vapaad. You're finding it that hard to believe that maybe, just maybe... a bolt of electricity detours? That's either a very weak imagination or a very stretched out one.

That force related point happens to the center point of your argument TG. If lightning can be misdirected by a lightsaber, then you could only contend that Vaapad might of helped with the misdirection. If you read my argument with RM, this was a point I was willing to allow after he gave his evidence.

EDIT: Just saw your last sentence for the first time, somehow. How many other lightsabers have you seen actually redirecting Force Lightning?

Thats not relevent unless you can give a comparable situation where a non Vaapad user was assaulted with a continous stream of lightning like Mace was.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He's (she?) not human. You can ignore BOOG(er). We're still testing to determine if it is a Gideon Sock (you know I'm kidding- chillax), a troll, a twelve year old, or a spambot. My money's on the spambot.

The topic itself was not without merit, however. As long as BOOG stays away, it is a reasonably good realm of discussion.

EDIT: Just saw your last sentence for the first time, somehow. How many other lightsabers have you seen actually redirecting Force Lightning?

Thats not relevent unless you can give a comparable situation where a non Vaapad user was assaulted with a continous stream of lightning like Mace was.

Its good if i stay away huh red? i don't know how you could say that about me, i thought we were friends ****ing lame ass nerd ha ha. Oh and the guy that complained about my post still being used shut up noob are you jealous that someone got more post than you hahaha dumb nerd. Just so you know red i haven't been anywhere just sitting back trying to figure out who winning this debate its very good. I don't put my to cents in when i don't know much about what there talking about.

Darth Revan

You just love getting reactions, don't you?