The Strongest Jedi&sith Ever

Started by Gideon21 pages
Originally posted by Darth Luna
Yes, it is.

No, Nebaris, it isn't. Darth Bane, however talented, is eclipsed in both mastery and raw potency by Palpatine.

And if it was a direct response of Palpatine's very presence, then the same transformation would have taken place on Coruscant, the Planet you claim he rarely left.

This isn't a valid argument. Coruscant was home to the Jedi Temple, a structure that was the central headquarters for ten thousand Jedi and their most powerful Masters for centuries; that said, the Dacho District on Coruscant (more commonly referred to as the Works) was very strong in the dark side of the Force according to both Labyrinth of Evil and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. Palpatine is identified as the reason why. Also keep in mind that Starkiller experienced a shroud of dark side energy during his ill-fated assault on the first Death Star, to which he attributed to the Emperor's influence. Leia Organa Solo, during the Thrawn Trilogy, visited Endor; when she did, her shuttle passed through the spot in space where Palpatine died and she was rendered unconscious. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that a cloud of dark side energy was rendered in orbit due to the Emperor's demise. And, lastly, Palpatine's very presence was enough to blunt Jedi sensitivity with the dark side on a galactic scale for decades.

So no, you sir, are wrong.

No.

Edit: Still not a valid argument. Palpatine was not the first Sith Lord to reign individually, and keep in mind that even he was the Master of four apprentices for much of his career. Yet no one else has replicated his feats.

Originally posted by VinCon01
Haven't taken the time to read through all of this, but...

IIRC, Palpatine used a technique mirroring that used by Nihilus on the planet of Byss. Palpatine's version however, unlike Nihilus' version, was under his control. His bizarre "Force Storm" is also pretty powerful.

The problem with calling Nihilus "powerful" is that his power fluctuates. While all fighters tend to have strengths and weaknesses, Nihilus is at the extremes. He's easily one of the most deadly enemies a normal Force user could encounter, but the reason for that also has flaws that make him nearly helpless against other types of opponents.

People cut off from the Force such as the Exile would unintentionally (Or intentionally, if they had foreknowledge of this weakness) turn his most powerful technique against him. Others who can cut themselves off from the Force or make themselves invisible to it such as Luke or Jacen, with foreknowledge, could likely blind him to their presence, making it easy to defeat him.

And then if I'm not mistaken, there are several entire species that are invisible to the Force/outside of the Force that many Jedi/Sith could defeat with little or moderate effort, but that Nihilus would struggle with greatly because they'd basically be invisible to him.

lol I've been away for a long time..

I haven't really read any of this but in response to the invisible to the force species thing, force storm/lightning will take care of that..

Originally posted by Gideon
No, Nebaris, it isn't. Darth Bane, however talented, is eclipsed in both mastery and raw potency by Palpatine.

Firstly, your claim was "No, it isn't." in response to "1 question Gideon, are you attempting to pass of Byss's transformation directly to Palpatine's strength in the dark side? A natural side effect of his power?

And mastery is measured primarily through control, and Bane's subatomic manipulations with the Force remains the greatest such display by miles."

For your statement to have made sense, you would have had to have been referring to "And mastery is measured primarily through control", not "and Bane's subatomic manipulations with the Force remains the greatest such display by miles.", where the appropriate response would have been "No it doesn't."

Letting that little error slide, Bane has both displayed a subatomic level of control with the Force, and power, that he would have access to at any given moment, of a planetary scale, where he absorbs, contains (whilst protecting himself internally) and redirects energy of a planet busting magnitude. And logic would quite clearly dictate that he's improved tremendously in both areas since. Palpatine, the guy who I'll remind you was barely competing with Yoda, a MOVIE established street level combatant, not too long before with little to no signs of improvements since doesn't compare in either department. Remotely.

This isn't a valid argument. Coruscant was home to the Jedi Temple, a structure that was the central headquarters for ten thousand Jedi and their most powerful Masters for centuries;

This isn't a valid rebuttal. Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Lord Nyax makes it explicitly clear that the nexus of lightside energies that had resulted from the Jedi stationed on the Planet was completely sealed away beneath the temple, only released once Nyax purposefully exposed it. With that sealed away, Coruscant was, for all intents and purposes, a neutral planet just like Byss. And yet no such transformation. If it was the direct response of Palpatine's presence, wouldn't it make sense that the same effect would have taken place on a planet he "rarely left," if not to a greater extent?

that said, the Dacho District on Coruscant (more commonly referred to as the Works) was very strong in the dark side of the Force according to both Labyrinth of Evil and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia. Palpatine is identified as the reason why. Also keep in mind that Starkiller experienced a shroud of dark side energy during his ill-fated assault on the first Death Star, to which he attributed to the Emperor's influence. Leia Organa Solo, during the Thrawn Trilogy, visited Endor; when she did, her shuttle passed through the spot in space where Palpatine died and she was rendered unconscious. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that a cloud of dark side energy was rendered in orbit due to the Emperor's demise.

Never denied that there was no such transformation, the point is that the transformation/s in question weren't on a planetary scale. This was all entirely irrelevant.

The point remains that, if, on a planet he -- according to you -- rarely visited, such a transformation took place as a direct result from his very presence (something he's not in control of), then common sense would dictate that the same should have happened on a Planet he -- again, according to you -- rarely left, only to a much higher extent.

And, lastly, Palpatine's very presence was enough to blunt Jedi sensitivity with the dark side on a galactic scale for decades.

Except it was never once supported that it was a direct result of his presence, and it's entirely plausible that it may have been a direct result of a ritual or something he was only capable of after gathering energies in deep meditation, or relying on the use of power enhancing/focusing talismans. Point being, the circumstances surrounding that entire "feat" (if you can even refer to it as that) are entire unknown, and as such we cannot use it as evidence for what he's capable of at any given moment with no preparation time.

No.

Edit: Still not a valid argument. Palpatine was not the first Sith Lord to reign individually, and keep in mind that even he was the Master of four apprentices for much of his career. Yet no one else has replicated his feats.

That was entirely irrelevant. My point was quite obviously that the fact that it was done single handily helped the process. That was it. And the bit about his apprentices? Even more irrelevant. The point was that he was the single dark side presence on the entire planet, and as such would have been able to tap into the dark side to a greater degree at such a location.

I'm gonna make it easy and put it into categories - it's kinda hard sifting between Jedi and Sith.

Jedi:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Obi-Wan
4. Mace Windu
5. Kyp Durron
6. Jacen Solo
7. Kyle Kattarn
8. Anakin Skywalker
9. Anakin Solo
10. Galen Marek

Sith:
1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Vader
3. Darth Bane
4. Darth Caedus
5. Freedon Nadd
6. Exar Kun
7. Ulic Quel-Droma
8. Darth Revan
9. Darth Malak
10. Darth Traya

No, Nebaris.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm gonna make it easy and put it into categories - it's kinda hard sifting between Jedi and Sith.

Jedi:
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Obi-Wan
4. Mace Windu
5. Kyp Durron
6. Jacen Solo
7. Kyle Kattarn
8. Anakin Skywalker
9. Anakin Solo
10. Galen Marek

Sith:
1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Vader
3. Darth Bane
4. Darth Caedus
5. Freedon Nadd
6. Exar Kun
7. Ulic Quel-Droma
8. Darth Revan
9. Darth Malak
10. Darth Traya

Obi Wan at 3!? Caedus below Vader!? That is quite a questionable list.

Reason I put Darth Caedus at 4 is because he fully didn't develop his potential as a Sith. If he did, he might possibly have become more powerful than Sidious. Obi-Wan fought 3 Sith Lords: killed Maul, lost twice to Dooku and defeated Vader.

Caedus is stated to be more powerful than Darth Vader; though, as Darth Sexy and I have just discovered, publisher's summaries don't have a place within the canon hierarchy.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Reason I put Darth Caedus at 4 is because he fully didn't develop his potential as a Sith. If he did, he might possibly have become more powerful than Sidious. But that's just speculation.

But Caedus is already stated to be more powerful then Vader. And why do you have Obi-Wan ranked at 3!?

Yes, he may be more powerful, but he didn't fully develop into a true Sith Lord. But he still makes my list.

Eskimo, Obi-Wan fought 3 Sith Lords and lived. Mace fought Sidious and was killed. Sidious allowed himself to be wounded to turn Anakin. Sidious could have destroyed him at a whim.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Eskimo, Obi-Wan fought 3 Sith Lords and lived. Mace fought Sidious and was killed. Sidious allowed himself to be wounded to turn Anakin. Sidious could have destroyed him at a whim.

Wiat a minute are you telling me that Obi-Wan would have stood a better chance against Sidious?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Eskimo, Obi-Wan fought 3 Sith Lords and lived. Mace fought Sidious and was killed. Sidious allowed himself to be wounded to turn Anakin. Sidious could have destroyed him at a whim.
Ahem... *cough*Vapaad*cough*shatterpoint*cough*

Originally posted by Gideon
No, Nebaris.

What was wrong with it?

Obi-Wan wouldn't have a prayer against Sidious, but Lucien just because Mace knew Shatterpoint and Vapaad doesn't make him more powerful. Mace was a more skilled lightsaber artist than Obi-Wan. But a decapation is just as good as Shatterpoint. Far quicker too.

Eskimo, Obi-Wan fought 3 Sith Lords and lived. Mace fought Sidious and was killed. Sidious allowed himself to be wounded to turn Anakin. Sidious could have destroyed him at a whim.

Excluding the EU, as I don't recall him facing any other Sith Lords there (Correct me if he did), we have Maul, Dooku, and Anakin/Vader. Dooku schooled Obi-Wan in pretty much all of their encounters, Maul basically only lost because he got cocky (Seriously GL, you couldn't think of a better way to off Maul than have him stand over a completely open Obi-Wan and taunt him for minutes?), and one of them was basically going completely berserk. Yes, he survived, but it was mostly due to plot protection (Arrogance-induced stupidity on the part of his opponent, last-minute saves, etc, etc). And none of those opponents were on Palpatine's level.

It's like Caedus vs. Luke. Luke should have utterly godstomped Caedus (And even basically did so earlier on in the same book), yet Caedus' lame plot protection kicked in since they still needed a villain for the finale.

I count Anakin Skywalker as a Sith Lord - he became Vader. Maul, Dooku and Anakin/Vader. 2 for 3 isn't bad.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I count Anakin Skywalker as a Sith Lord - he became Vader. Maul, Dooku and Anakin/Vader. 2 for 3 isn't bad.
I love semantics. Anakin=Jedi. Vader=Sith.

I count Anakin Skywalker as a Sith Lord - he became Vader. Maul, Dooku and Anakin/Vader. 2 for 3 isn't bad.

And again, saying that he "survived" is a pretty accurate description.

Maul: He literally had Obi-Wan at his mercy. Something as simple as a Force Push probably would have sent him to his death. Instead, GL has him stand there like an idiot and taunt Kenobi until he gets "Teh Drive" (For shame, GL. For shame).

Anakin: Frankly, Anakin wasn't exactly at what you would call his best at the time. Neither was Obi-Wan. They were both emotionally distraught, Anakin was blind with rage, Obi-Wan didn't want to kill him, and he only really lost due to an incredibly stupid, arrogance-induced decision (Honestly, all he had to do to keep up the fight was step forward off of the thing. Jumping was stupid). To add to that, Obi-Wan had been personally teaching Anakin for at least ten years, and his primary style (Soresu) was practically the perfect counter to Anakin's (Shien or Djem So, depending on the type of opponent he's facing).

Mace didn't survive a fight with a man considerably more powerful than the men that Obi-Wan barely escaped alive. That's not exactly an indication of Obi-Wan's superiority.

Can you show some evidence that Anakin knew Shien? But back to Obi-Wan, the reason Dooku pawned him was because he lost [Obi-Wan] lost his objectivity. He had to deal with the battle droids and then re-engage Dooku. Dooku had the clear advantage. Sure Obi-Wan didn't want to fight Anakin/Vader, but Anakin had become Sith.

Anyway, stepping off the platform would have been stupid. His lower body would have caught on fire. He should have caught Obi-Wan off guard like Maul did - hitting him a FP and then resuming the battle. But Obi-Wan was smart by gaining the high ground he had the superior advantage. Gideon pointed out to me that Force mastery was superior than a midichlorian count. Obi-Wan clearly had far superior Force mastery than Anakin/Vader. But whose to say how strong Anakin/Vader would have been if he didn't become the man in life support black armor?

Mace clearly didn't have the same Force mastery vs Sidious/Palpatine. Neither did Yoda which is surprising - the strongest Jedi Master other than Luke. But Obi-Wan had a stronger Force mastery because of his connection to the living Force.