The Presence against The Heart of the Infinite

Originally posted by fangirl101

LOL. It called the respect thread.

🙄

Originally posted by fangirl101

One only has to read lucifers to know that they aren't the same being.

btw. Why don't you tell me where to look in the Lucifer series, (I have it)
so I can verify your claim.

If you were to ask me for any title & # to any source of info I bring to kmc,
I could do that immediately, I would even throw in the exact page.

Can you? ... If you can, then do so, otherwise it's just unsupported statements.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wonderful, so the knowledge you bring to debates stems from "respect threads?"

🙄

So which is it, "respect threads" ... or "Lucifer series?"

btw. Why don't you tell me where to look in the Lucifer series, (I have it)
so I can verify your claim.

If you were to ask me for any title & # to any source of info I bring to kmc,
I could do that immediately, I would even throw in the exact page.

Can you? ... If you can, then do so, otherwise it's just unsupported statements.

Originally posted by Philosophía

Mr Master, to be honest, I've changed my view on the whole thing. The way I see it, there have been numerous interpretations of who/what God actually is in the DC Universe, with many authors not taking into account another one's interpretation when writing it, and with some series/interpretations being canon or not to the DC Universe.

As for the line between Vertigo and the DC Universe, it has always been blurry but, according to Dan Didio, mine and probably a few others's opinion, they are not withing the same continuity, eventough they do share many similarities.

Be it the writer/artist/Yahweh/Ultimate Light & GEB merged, or any other interpretation (a new one apprently being introduced in Superman Beyond, which contradicts the very nature of Spectre's existence for example, with the writer of the mini-series featuring Spectre even going as flat-out saying that he is not going to take into account this new interpretation due to already having a hard time portraying the DCU God without upsetting other religions and such), I will regard the supreme being as supreme, unsurpassable. Period. And I'm not going to engage in any more 'Is the Presence supreme?', 'Look here, he says he is shaped by something else' type of discussions.

But then again, this is only my opinion/view.

To be honest, and you might be feeling the same, I'm a bit more confused now, lol.

So if DC and Vertigo are two separate continuities,
then there are many occasions that need to be elaborated on in detail,
cause as you know,
many times members will use Vertigo stories to define a DC character, or vice versa.

I didn't want to bring up the "shaped by external forces" argument to tell you the truth,
I was only playing fangirls' nitpicking game,
doesn't seem to accept that in a 6 issue story involving God's power, or uber power period,
there's gonna be room for pis for the sake of having the story last 6 issues.

All cosmic related stories have some pis, they have to implement it,
otherwise,
making a story involving infinite power would be endless, or the characters destroy everything,
and also, "the I can do anything and everything with a thought" scenario
would become a migraine of boringness.

Anyhow, for the record ...

imo, the Presence is the Supreme Being of all DC,
and is above and beyond all other characters, just like what THOTI made Thanos.

But just like in Marvel, DC also has another creation above even the Presence,
just like Marvel has a creation above even the HOTI,
that is,
the fictional illustrated representative avatars of the writers/artists.
In Marvel, this creation is TOAA. (seen in FF#511/Spiderman#40/Supreme #59, and others)
Don't know if DC has an official term,
but we know we've seen DC's representative avatar in Animal #26,
and the Carlin joint, I'm sure there's others I don't know of.

Also, these characters should never be taken into consideration if you ask me,
it's ridiculous to pin them in a vs thread against artwork they themselves are creating,
even from a completely fictional point of view,
it's a still an on panel character, that imagines/draws everything else that appears on panel.

Sorry to disagree Mr. M,
but IMO, The Presence is >> THOTI or Thanos w/ THOTI

THOTI has ceased to exist.
MU does NOT require the THOTI.

The Presence is an everlasting element in the DC continuity.

Nothing was/is/will be greater than The Presence in DC.
No amount of artifacts could equate with it's omnipotence.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Sorry to disagree Mr. M,
but IMO, The Presence is >> THOTI or Thanos w/ THOTI

THOTI has ceased to exist.
MU does NOT require the THOTI.

The Presence is an everlasting element in the DC continuity.

Nothing was/is/will be greater than The Presence in DC.
No amount of artifacts could equate with it's omnipotence.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Sorry to disagree Mr. M,
but IMO, The Presence is >> THOTI or Thanos w/ THOTI

Don't know what else to tell ya.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

THOTI has ceased to exist.
MU does NOT require the THOTI.

THOTI is not the Marvel Universe,
and it was never stated and/or depicted that the Marvel Universe needed it to exist.

THOTI was a concentrated source of all energy in Marvel,
but the cornerstones of Reality are,
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion and Galactus is the balance between them.

Exactly, if Galactus dies,
all of Marvel will collpase (cease to exist) in the form of Abraxas.

You're not suggesting Galactus > THOTI are ya,
cause based on your logic, that's what it seems.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

The Presence is an everlasting element in the DC continuity.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer

Nothing was/is/will be greater than The Presence in DC.
No amount of artifacts could equate with it's omnipotence.

Originally posted by Mr Master
According to Marvel Comics ... THOTI = the Supreme being.

Don't know what else to tell ya.

And?

THOTI is not the Marvel Universe,
and it was never stated and/or depicted that the Marvel Universe needed it to exist.

THOTI was a concentrated source of all energy in Marvel,
but the cornerstones of Reality are,
Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion and Galactus is the balance between them.

Exactly, if Galactus dies,
all of Marvel will collpase ([b]cease to exist) in the form of Abraxas.

You're not suggesting Galactus > THOTI are ya,
cause based on your logic, that's what it seems.

So is Mr Immortal in Marvel, and he can't even lift a car. 😬

Same goes for the HOTI, so again, we land on the same boat. [/B]

Originally posted by fangirl101

The Presence sustains the DCU. Galactus doesn't not sustain the Marvel u.

So the analogy fails.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The heart does not sustain the marvel u.

In the Marvel Universe,
Infinity (embodiment of space) is the form of all existence,
and Eternity (time) is what makes it infinite.

As far as what supports the Marvel Universe:

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that all This -- is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is.

The core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"

Originally posted by fangirl101
The Presence sustains the DCU. Galactus doesn't not sustain the Marvel u. So the analogy fails. The heart does not sustain the marvel u.

Pretty much. Seems obvious to me. The Presence is the DCU. He is it's all mighty creator, omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. He exists outside and within the bounds of existence in the DCU. HOTI is just a super powerful artifact that is limited to a much greater degree, where's the Presence exists outside and within existence in the DCU HOTI exists in one place at one time and its power is limited to within the bounds of existence. And obviously is non essential to the workings of the Marvel U.

The Presence has no shape or form and he exists within and without every fabric of reality in the DCU, past, present and future. The closest the Presence has come to showing his form is in entities like the Source and even that is merely one aspect of his presence/power. The Presence is obviously based on the jewish version of God, where he exists within and outside of time, has no form (since he's omnipresent), and is absolutely omnipotent & omniscient.

I always took the HOTI as being a carbon copy of TOAA's power. So that, when Thanos merged with HOTI, TOAA and Thanos weren't one being, but that Thanos had all the power of TOAA (and thus becoming the Supreme Being).

Just as the Presence doesn't directly interact with anyone in the DCU and has agents for that capable of wielding Its power (Spectre, Michael, Lucifer, etc.) that's the way I saw TOAA allowing Thanos to wield His power in order to fix the flaw in the MU.

That being said, I think The Heart of the Infinite and The Presence are equal. And that this would be a stalemate.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I always took the HOTI as being a carbon copy of TOAA's power. So that, when Thanos merged with HOTI, TOAA and Thanos weren't one being, but that Thanos had all the power of TOAA (and thus becoming the Supreme Being).

Just as the Presence doesn't directly interact with anyone in the DCU and has agents for that capable of wielding Its power (Spectre, Michael, Lucifer, etc.) that's the way I saw TOAA allowing Thanos to wield His power in order to fix the flaw in the MU.

That being said, I think The Heart of the Infinite and The Presence are equal. And that this would be a stalemate.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Now how would that be a stalemate when the heart wasn't a copy of TOAA's power. How could it be? How can you copy god's power?

It was a copy. I'm pretty sure God can do whatever It wants. And It wanted the flaw fixed. And Thanos was the perfect candidate.

Stalemate.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was a copy. I'm pretty sure God can do whatever It wants. And It wanted the flaw fixed. And Thanos was the perfect candidate.

Originally posted by Enyalus
It was a copy. I'm pretty sure God can do whatever It wants. And It wanted the flaw fixed. And Thanos was the perfect candidate.

I'm sure God can do what ever it wants but to create a carbon copy means that his power is not insurmountable if a force exists to contend with his power.

Think about it. Omnipotence has no room for rivalry, because it's omnipotence. You can't have two absolutely omnipotent entities, because being omnipotent means having no limitation, another power that can contend with you compromises that omnipotence.

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm sure God can do what ever it wants but to create a carbon copy means that his power is not insurmountable if a force exists to contend with his power.

Think about it. Omnipotence has no room for rivalry, because it's omnipotence. You can't have two absolutely omnipotent entities, because being omnipotent means having no limitation, another power that can contend with you compromises that omnipotence.

The Presence wins

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
👆
QFT

The Presence wins

This thread is funny.

So it's unsupported opinions > Marvel Comics on panel facts, confirmed in Marvel Handbooks.

durlaugh

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm sure God can do what ever it wants but to create a carbon copy means that his power is not insurmountable if a force exists to contend with his power.

Think about it. Omnipotence has no room for rivalry, because it's omnipotence. You can't have two absolutely omnipotent entities, because being omnipotent means having no limitation, another power that can contend with you compromises that omnipotence.

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