Originally posted by Mr Master
This thread is funny.So it's unsupported opinions > Marvel Comics on panel facts, confirmed in Marvel Handbooks.
durlaugh
No just logic. You can't be absolutely omnipotent within the confines of your universe and have a artifact or entity be able to contend or match your power. What that means is that you're not absolutely omnipotent, as there' something out there that can contend with you.
Originally posted by AllanklesPretty much. Seems obvious to me. The Presence is the DCU. He is it's all mighty creator, omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. He exists outside and within the bounds of existence in the DCU.
HOTI is just a super powerful artifact that is limited to a much greater degree, where's the Presence exists outside and within existence in the DCU
HOTI exists in one place at one time
and its power is limited to within the bounds of existence.
Thanos made all existence/reality disappear, with the exception of Warlock and Death.
Originally posted by AllanklesAnd obviously is non essential to the workings of the Marvel U.
Originally posted by AllanklesThe Presence has no shape or form and he exists within
and without every fabric of reality in the DCU, past, present and future.
Yes, the Alien Entity is one with the energies that make all that happen,
and yet, the Alien Entity is not the most powerful character in Marvel so ...
Originally posted by AllanklesThe closest the Presence has come to showing his form is in entities like the Source and even that is merely one aspect of his presence/power.
Originally posted by AllanklesThe Presence is obviously based on the jewish version of God,
where he exists within and outside of time, has no form (since he's omnipresent),and is absolutely omnipotent & omniscient.
...............................................................
As for "absolutely omnipotent"
Well, so is a wielder of the IG:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29
Powers: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"
✅
Indeed, on panel the IG makes one GOD! (beneath the LT though)
"Thanos ... in-effect became God"
...............................................................
As for "absolutely omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent"
That goes to the Living Tribunal, who is above the IG, but below the HOTI:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal
Power: "Omnipotent and Omniscient"
🙂
Oh, .... and "Omnipresent"
Here's that same Omnipotent/Omniscient/Omnipresent Living Tribunal getting stomped by THOTI:
The LT is niether omnipotent or Omnicient.
In she hulk, he discovers a different reality called the ultimate verse.
He didn't know he was not going to be able to beat proteous. He isn't omnicient.
nither is he omnipotent. he couldn't beat proteous and had to use a power up.
The Heart of the infinite did not make Thanos God.
I was going to respond to fangirl, Mr. Master, but I think your last post will do fine. I don't know how I would argue with "You can't copy absolute omnipotence" yet in the same post say something like, "the presence with all of his power can create the same kind of power with in the source or michael."
Ah, well.
Originally posted by Mr Master
If Thanos was limited to within the bounds of existence,
how did he exist when there was no existence?Thanos made [b]all existence/reality
disappear, with the exception of Warlock and Death.[/B]
That's not really the crux of my argument. And if we want to talk existence, that's an awfully huge subject. Does absorbing the contents of the universe, place you outside of existence itself?
Anyway back to the crux of my argument, the point I've made is that if the TOAA's power can be contended by HOTI then he isn't truly absolutely omnipotent within the Marvel U.
The very nature of being absolutely omnipotent prevents such a scenario from ever occurring even if he wanted it to be so, his power would be insurmountable regardless.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I was going to respond to fangirl, Mr. Master, but I think your last post will do fine. I don't know how I would argue with "You can't copy absolute [b]omnipotence" yet in the same post say something like, "the presence with all of his power can create the same kind of power with in the source or michael."Ah, well. [/B]
Originally posted by Allankles
Anyway back to the crux of my argument, the point I've made is that if the TOAA's power can be contended by HOTI then he isn't truly absolutely omnipotent within the Marvel U.The very nature of being absolutely omnipotent prevents such a scenario from ever occurring even if he wanted it to be so, his power would be insurmountable regardless.
...No.
Omnipotence means All Powerful. If you're all powerful, what's stopping you from making a second, perfect copy? Ah, nothing.
Originally posted by fangirl101
I said that the presence has created the same kind of power as the heart of the infintie within mikey and the source. and yet they are less than he.
Omnipotence is power. Omniscience is knowledge. Omnipresence is being everywhere.
That he created someone with the same power as them, means he gave them the same level of omnipotence. Of course they're below him - they aren't God.
Originally posted by AllanklesNo just logic. You can't be absolutely omnipotent within the confines of your universe and have a artifact or entity be able to contend or match your power. What that means is that you're not absolutely omnipotent, as there' something out there that can contend with you.
I don't care how DC runs their cosmology.
In Marvel Comics, the Heart of the Infinite made Thanos the Supreme Being (GOD)
TOAA is above God, TOAA are two people,
one that imagines everything that takes place on panel,
and one that draws everything that takes place on panel.
Obviously illustrated representative avatars of the real world writers/artists.
TOAA, created and drew a story called The End: Marvel,
where one of their drawings named Thanos
acquired the Supreme power of their imaginary world called the Marvel Universe,
this Supreme power was called the Heart of the Infinite.
All this, THOTI/the Omniverse/whatever and whoever that appears on panel,
is just a drawing on a piece of paper to them,
heck, even themselves, lol.
Originally posted by Mr Master
If existing outside of time, and having no form is what makes him special,
then there's a host of Marvel characters that would stalemate his speciality,
starting with Warlock (who's outside the influence of BOTH Time & Space)...............................................................
As for "absolutely omnipotent"
Well, so is a wielder of the IG:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Infinity_Gauntlet_%28item%29
[B]Powers
: "Absolute Omnipotence when the Gems are used altogether"✅
Indeed, on panel the IG makes one GOD! (beneath the LT though)
"Thanos ... in-effect [u]became God"
...............................................................
As for "absolutely omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent"
That goes to the Living Tribunal, who is above the IG, but below the HOTI:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Living_Tribunal
Power: "Omnipotent and Omniscient"
🙂
Oh, .... and "Omnipresent"
Here's that same Omnipotent/Omniscient/Omnipresent Living Tribunal getting stomped by THOTI:
Nice scans but the word omnipotent is getting thrown around a lot. If we want to talk about true omnipotence then we're talking about the supreme god of the Marvel U and that's TOAA. If this Supreme being has a rival in HOTI then he can't truly be absolutely omnipotent as such a rivalry goes against the idea of absolute omnipotence. That an artifact outside of himself can contend with his power means that he isn't trully omniscient. The Presence has no such problems, with artifacts or with other entities. He is the alpha and the omega, first and last, no power can contend with him in the DCU.
Originally posted by Mr Master
You're confusing DC's understanding of the Supreme being with Marvel's.I don't care how DC runs their cosmology.
In Marvel Comics, the Heart of the Infinite made Thanos the Supreme Being (GOD)
TOAA is above God, TOAA are two people,
one that imagines everything that takes place on panel,
and one that draws everything that takes place on panel.
Obviously illustrated representative avatars of the real world writers/artists.TOAA, created and drew a story called The End: Marvel,
where one of their drawings named Thanos
acquired the Supreme power of their imaginary world called the Marvel Universe,this Supreme power was called the Heart of the Infinite.
All this, THOTI/the Omniverse/whatever and whoever that appears on panel,
is just a drawing on a piece of paper to them,
heck, even themselves, lol.
So the TOAA is not a entity within the Marvel U itself? He's not an in universe being?
Originally posted by Allankles
Nice scans but the word omnipotent is getting thrown around a lot. If we want to talk about true omnipotence then we're talking about the supreme god of the Marvel U and that's TOAA. If this Supreme being has a rival in HOTI then he can't truly be absolutely omnipotent as such a rivalry goes against the idea of absolute omnipotence. That an artifact outside of himself can contend with his power means that he isn't trully omniscient.
Firstly, it isn't outside of himself. The HOTI is TOAA's power. Secondly, Marvel says Thanos became the Supreme Being. That's that. Case closed.
Originally posted by Allankles
The Presence has no such problems, with artifacts or with other entities. He is the alpha and the omega, first and last, no power can contend with him in the DCU.
Great Evil Beast ring a bell?
Originally posted by Enyalus
...No.Omnipotence means All Powerful. If you're all powerful, what's stopping you from making a second, perfect copy? Ah, nothing.
Nothing except for such a thing to occur you cannot be ALL powerful. Theirs ANOTHER power that can contend with yours, you are not ALL powerful.
Originally posted by AllanklesThat's not really the crux of my argument. And if we want to talk existence, that's an awfully huge subject.
Does absorbing the contents of the universe,
place you outside of existence itself?
1.
(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Eternity
"Thanos claimed the Power of THOTI,
Eternity opposed Thanos once more,
Thanos destroyed ALL of Reality"
2.
(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Living Tribunal
"Thanos destroyed ALL that Existed with his power ...
and then Restored Reality"
3.
(This is from the actual Marvel Handbook Bio 2006) - Infinity
Thanos used THOTI to destroy All Reality
Originally posted by AllanklesAnyway back to the crux of my argument,
the point I've made is that if the TOAA's power can be contended by HOTI
then he isn't truly absolutely omnipotent within the Marvel U.
THOTI is nothing but a drawing on a piece of paper to TOAA.
Just like Reed and the FF, Silver Surfer, Black Panther and even Galactus,
are just silly drawings on a piece of paper to the OAA (writers/artists avatars)
Originally posted by AllanklesThe very nature of being absolutely omnipotent prevents such a scenario from ever occurring even if he wanted it to be so,
his power would be insurmountable regardless.
TOAA (two beings) create and draw everything on pieces of paper,
these stories/drawings on a piece of paper may be reality to the ink on the pages,
but to TOAA, it's just ideas and ink on pieces of paper.
THOTI, is what GOD is, withIN the pages TOAA works on.
(TOAA couldn't fix the flaw, not cause they couldn't
but cause they made a story that they couldn't, just like they can do anything,
after all, it's just a goof for them, since it's just ink and pieces of paper.
Originally posted by EnyalusFirstly, it isn't outside of himself. The HOTI is TOAA's power. Secondly, Marvel says Thanos became the Supreme Being. That's that. Case closed. [/B]
I'm no doubting what Marvel said, I'm talking about TOAA.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Great Evil Beast ring a bell? [/B]
That was Yahweh. Not the Presence. Different names for different beings not in the direct same continuity. At best you could say Yahweh is an aspect of the main DCU's Presence.
Originally posted by EnyalusFirstly, it isn't outside of himself. The HOTI is TOAA's power. Secondly, Marvel says Thanos became the Supreme Being. That's that. Case closed.
Great Evil Beast ring a bell? [/B]
And the great evil beast stalemated the ultimate light. Show me where either one was the presence.
Originally posted by Mr MasterTOAA (two beings) create and draw everything on pieces of paper,
these stories/drawings on a piece of paper may be reality to the ink on the pages,
but to TOAA, it's just ideas and ink on pieces of paper.THOTI, is what GOD is, withIN the pages TOAA works on.
(TOAA couldn't fix the flaw, not cause they couldn't
but cause they made a story that they couldn't, just like they can do anything,
after all, it's just a goof for them, since it's just ink and pieces of paper.
How can THOTI be what God is? Given that in essence it's just an artifact? So you're saying the LT is the one that occupies God's position within Marvel every other time?
