Viktor vs Markus

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It couldn't be that because R.O.T.L wasn't even written yet... so he wasn't saying that because he knew anything about a victory that wasn't even written yet. So we can exclude that from the whole equation logically. Plus, when you add in the fact that he lost to his daughter and was disarmed easily... then it makes even more sense that Lucian could defeat him.

Me
If you want to flagrantly disregard a crucial plot point of the first film in order to fuel your e-grudge against a troll, be my guest, but I'm not.

👆

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it does matter as Viktor grew in power considerably since rise. We see him physically able to overpower a Lycan.

Older vampires still can't beat up younger Lycans physically that is why they need weapons.

We never saw her do anything significantly in terms of combat and we see that Viktor has the feats. He was also older than Amelia.

So did all other immortals that were around for that time. There is no reason to believe the gap widened at all.

The Lycan form gives them a boost. But again the gap between Raze and Viktor would have remained constant still they would have had the same age gap. For instance say Biktor is 1000 years older than Raze. In 1000 years he will still be 1000 years older and therefore always maintain the gap in power that age range has. It would never shift since there is no implication the rate changes.

She wasn't much younger than Viktor. She was created with Viktor's army iirc so she's maybe hours younger. Could be minutes. Either way Viktor would be overwhelmed in a similar situation

quote:
Me
If you want to flagrantly disregard a crucial plot point of the first film in order to fuel your e-grudge against a troll, be my guest, but I'm not.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
👆

your own words betray u

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Close. It's actually near the end of the movie, when the Death Dealers are assaulting Lucian's lair.

Ultimately, the entire plot of the first movie is set into motion because Lucian needs Michael to defeat Viktor. OOU, Lycans wouldn't be made for another 6 years. IU, however, it's pretty evident to me that Lucian's victory was as circumstantial as it gets.

As I've unquestionably shown... the plan was never for Lucian to fight Viktor and needing to be a hybrid to defeat him. They planned on killing Viktor in his sleep.. the plan was never for him to even be woken up. So by proxy this eliminates the theory that Lucian knew he couldn't defeat Viktor and needed to be a hybrid to do so. He was never planning on fighting viktor at all. So while I admire your protection of Quan (who does need it) it seems you've forgotten crucial plot point from the movie not I.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your face is Abe Lincoln long. It is freakish. I feel bad for you to be both ugly and stupid. Oh well you probably had it coming. If your game is as bad as your debating I bet you get slapped a lot.

No, that isn't correct. When he realized Lucian was coming for him he attacked when he got close. What you are saying isn't supported by anything other than your long faced fantasies. This was explained by myself and the other poster. You're too stupid to get it and are stuck in an endless loop of repeating without anyway of actually explaining your claims.

Viktor was not killed by Lucian, Abe. You are lying again. The sun was up and there was nothing he could do about that. He still disarmed Lucian proving he's better with swords than Lucian is. Again, Viktor can't block out the sun. What you're saying makes no sense and is awful debating. Try to use your brain for a change.

That isn't proof he weighs a lot more but either way like I said throwing someone who weighs more is a lot more difficult. If you are bigger and denser you weigh more, Abe. You are hands down really stupid and long faced. Your stupidy almost matches the length of your face, Lincoln. Incorrect. Viktor tossing a much bigger hybrid through is vastly more impressive according to you. 🙂

Yes, I have since I posted about the feats and the time that had passed since the rise of the Lycans. It wasn't just three hundred years but the feats speak for themselves. You ignore and make things up. 😉

A Lycan is shown against Viktor and he doesn't overpower the Lycan. Did you not see the film ? I have an on screen instance in which he did not overpower the Lycan. Watch the films, Abe.

He didn't turn the tide in battle and again you have no proof he was going to break free. Viktor defeated Michael and you have unsupported theory or speculation which isn't proof.

Viktor disarmed Lucian and wasn't killed despite the sun keeping him immobile.
Viktor defeated his daughter despite you saying otherwise. He ended it with a knife to her throat. Viktor defeated Michael and needed an attack from Selene because she couldn't directly beat him even though she beat Markus fair and square.

Markus knocked him off a truck. Since he couldn't fly he couldn't get back there. Markus cheapshotted him thus proving to your logic he wasn't confident he could beat him in a fair fight. Selene won. Quit bringing up pis and being biased.

Go long, Abe. Oh wait too late. 😂

Viktor wins. You're a clod and a horrible debater who can't even use proper sentence structure half the time or understand the movies. I don't even believe you've seen them as you claimed Viktor slept from rise to underworld part one.

😂

hey Smush face.. how does it feel to be my inferior in virtually every way? Not only are you ugly and a look like a dried up prune.. but your a midget with no athletic ability what so ever. That must really suck to look like you do and try to even compare yourself to me. We could ask any number of girls who is better looking and the vast majority, if not all would say me. You're a short smush face.. nobody like those. I'm still waiting for you to take up the challenge of ex's and pictures of them... not just any pictures mind you.. but pictures clearly showing us together (holding hands.. kissing etc) Let's see who's had the better looking girls smush face.

NO smush face he HIDE OUT OF SIGHT and when he heard Lucian coming he attacked him... He tried to sneak attack him because he knew Lucian was a match for him.. Which of course he was.. being that he killed him pretty easily. Running and hiding and attacking someone from the side isn't the sign of somebody who is superior and knows it. In fact, it's a sign of the opposite prune face.

Moron... Throwing somebody with less weight against a smaller volume not dilapidated pillar and breaking it.. is much more impressive than throwing somebody heavier against a wall already with a hole in it and old and dilapidated. He could've thrown a normal human against that wall and it would've broken smush. That isn't proof.

I'm waiting for the proof that Viktor grew MASSIVELY stronger as yo u put it. You haven't provided a single thing showing that. You need to shown Viktor FAILING to beat a Lycan with his hands or struggling to do so. and then doing so to Raze would be proof. So post the proof or concede that you don't know that he couldn't have done that to Raze before as well. If I jump across a pool at 36... doesn't mean I couldn've have at 25.. We'll never know because I didn't try. That is not proof smush. So post the clips of Viktor failing or struggling to kill a lycan with his hands or I've won yet another point.

YOU SAID HE DEFEATED MICHAEL YOU MORON. So post the clip where he defeated him. Having an advantage doesn't mean you'd maintain that advantage. Just like you claim Odin didn't defeat thanos.. because the fight wasn't over yet. Neither was this fight... Viktor was in a good position.. but as I've PROVEN.. fights can swing at any point. Things can look really bleak and then they can be turned around.. happens in MMA.. Boxing... Football.. golf.. you name it.. happens all the time. So post the clip of Viktor ACTUALLY killing him or concede he didn't defeat him.

I already won the argument about them growing stronger while starving.. you haven't provided any proof of that. So, I've already won this point smush.

Viktor lost to Lucian...
Viktor last to his daughter
Viktor couldn't defeat Michael before he was killed

Markus is more powerful and older than Viktor with more abilities than Viktor. Easy Markus win.

facepalm

Kraven: There's no defeating [Viktor]. [Viktor] grows stronger as we speak.

Lucian: And that is precisely why I need Michael.

Lucian flat-out says he needs Michael because Viktor is now awake, in play, and growing stronger.

It's really that simple.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Kraven: There's no defeating [Viktor]. [Viktor] grows stronger as we speak.

[b]Lucian: And that is precisely why I need Michael.

Lucian flat-out says he needs Michael because Viktor is now awake, in play, and growing stronger.

It's really that simple. [/B]

You just stated he needed Michael to defeat Viktor WHEN IN FACT THAT WASN'T THE PLAN.. What is so hard to understand about this... The PLAN WAS TO KILL VIKTOR WHILE HE SLEPT. Michael and needing him was NEVER part of the equation. He was looking for Michael WELL BEFORE Viktor was even awoken on accident. So again, that was never part of the plan. What on God' green earth is so hard to understand about that. Further, Lucian NEVER states he needs Michael to defeat Viktor.. He saying now that he's awake having Michael's blood would help. Not that this is the only way. he already defeated him without him... There's a difference between saying it's a must and something would aid you in achieving something. it's a moot point as R.O.T.L wasn't even made or conceived at that point. Thus, it makes that line (that I don't think means what you believe null and void) Post the line or clip where Lucian says he cant' beat Viktor. Again, for the umpteenth time... Lucian was looking for Michael while Viktor was sleeping and had been sleeping and wasn't even going to be awake for another hundred years because it was Markus time to rule. Michael never had anything to do with him killing Viktor at all =. Sure once he was awakened then then Lucian wanted any edge he could get.. but that was never the plan or why Michael was needed.

😬

KT, you're letting your quan!rage complicate fairly linear dialogue.

Yes, Lucian was pursuing Michael before Viktor woke prematurely. Yes, Lucian was intending on hybridizing himself anyway.

But it's only when Viktor does rise and threatens Lucian's plan does Lucian express the need for Michael's blood. He doesn't say "yeah, this'll prolly help against Viktor but I totes could handle the old geezer without it anyway." He says he "needs" Michael's blood "precisely" because Viktor is awake, in play, and growing stronger.

Rise of the Lycans doesn't overrule Underworld, doesn't retcon in it anyway. Lucian still said that shit and the meaning doesn't change. The only way that the line's straightforward meaning and the events of Lycans can coexist seamlessly is if we understand that Lucian's victory over Viktor in the prequel was an outlier that Lucian himself doubted would be repeated.

Your interpretation, on the other hand, requires either dismissing Lucian's words entirely or contorting their meaning so grotesquely as to be unrecognizable.

To recap: Lucian says he needs Michael's blood to defeat Viktor. From that, we can draw conclusions from basic inference. Unless Lucian suffers from crippling dementia, he's unlikely to have forgotten that one time he made Viktor a sword swallower. Therefore, Lucian must have come to the conclusion that such an outcome was extremely unlikely to repeat itself. Which explains why Viktor was confident in assaulting the Lycans' lair personally whereas Lucian was avoiding a fight until he hybridized himself. They both knew that Viktor would win more often than not. That, in conjunction with what all we know about Elders, vampires & werewolves and age, makes it pretty damn clear that Viktor is more powerful than Lucian.

If you disagree, that's fine. But this is all pretty straightforward and I've seen nothing in your posts to suggest otherwise. Until I do, that's all I have to say on the subject.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😬

KT, you're letting your quan!rage complicate fairly linear dialogue.

Yes, Lucian was pursuing Michael before Viktor woke prematurely. Yes, Lucian was intending on hybridizing himself anyway.

But it's only when Viktor does rise and threatens Lucian's plan does Lucian express the need for Michael's blood. He doesn't say "yeah, this'll prolly help against Viktor but I totes could handle the old geezer without it anyway." He says he "needs" Michael's blood "precisely" because Viktor is awake, in play, and growing stronger.

Rise of the Lycans doesn't overrule Underworld, doesn't retcon in it anyway. Lucian still said that shit and the meaning doesn't change. The only way that the line's straightforward meaning and the events of Lycans can coexist seamlessly is if we understand that Lucian's victory over Viktor in the prequel was an outlier that Lucian himself doubted would be repeated.

Your interpretation, on the other hand, requires either dismissing Lucian's words entirely or contorting their meaning so grotesquely as to be unrecognizable.

To recap: Lucian says he needs Michael's blood to defeat Viktor. From that, we can draw conclusions from basic inference. Unless Lucian suffers from crippling dementia, he's unlikely to have forgotten that one time he made Viktor a sword swallower. Therefore, Lucian must have come to the conclusion that such an outcome was extremely unlikely to repeat itself. Which explains why Viktor was confident in assaulting the Lycans' lair personally whereas Lucian was avoiding a fight until he hybridized himself. They both knew that Viktor would win more often than not. That, in conjunction with what all we know about Elders, vampires & werewolves and age, makes it pretty damn clear that Viktor is more powerful than Lucian.

If you disagree, that's fine. But this is all pretty straightforward and I've seen nothing in your posts to suggest otherwise. Until I do, that's all I have to say on the subject.

Let's break this down... So we can all be clear here..

1. The statement in question doesn't mean he feels like he can't beat Viktor without Michael correct? There is nothing in there that precludes that from being a possibility right? To expand
A. Said statement was made before R.O.T.L. was made.. Thus, you agree that had R.O.T.L been made first or already written in a book.. Said statement might not exist correct?
B. Forgetting the above for a second.. Let's say it was known and we want it to all mush... Why wouldn't it be a logical thing to say.. when death dealers are coming.. Viktor is coming.. his whole plan of killing Viktor while sleeping has gone out the window.. There is some serious urgency going on in Lucian mind.. why would it not be logical to say.. I need Michael now to get the job done? Doesn't mean that is the only way.. but it certainly would be helpful.. why could that simply be the meaning?

You're brining up Viktor going into the den as if this is proof he could defeat Lucian.. Yet he did so with numerous death dealers.. he didn't go in there alone. Not only that.. he went in there after the fighting started... he didn't go in there leading the charge from the front. Further... by your reasoning.. Lucian was even MORE bold:
A. He went into Viktor castle ALONE trying to free Sonja .. That is even more of bold statement than what you're trying to make Viktor's statement out to be by him going to the Lycan den.. True or not?

You're using words out of date and context.. you can't take words that were said before other events were written that could very well alter them... then retroactively try and make them fit with events that weren't even written yet. I'm looking at the big picture here.. Yes, I agree Lucian could feel like he needs Michael to assure himself victory of Viktor.. never disagreed that he could have doubt or want an extra advantage. What Lucian's statement DOESN'T mean is that it is TOTALLY NECESSARY (which is what you're saying) that he needs that to win. Actions speak louder than words and you know this tempest. Feats and vs. fights surpass any dialogue or hyperbole in comics or novels. Lucian already defeated him in combat. Period. that speaks louder than him saying he couldn't. What you are effectively saying is.. right after Lucian beat Viktor... he could've said.. I can't beat Viktor.. and you would cling onto that and say see.. he feels like he can't beat him.. even though in action we SAW him do it. That is what takes precedent in the hierarchy here.. do you agree that actions speak louder than words?

So While I don't disagree with you entirely I think you are putting a value on one sentence more than actions. That is a faulty logic to start with.. to say nothing of the fact that this sentence was said before other later actions could've made it false. That is a lot of weight to put into a sentence and disregard actions and the clear bigger picture that the line was said when no R.O.T.L. was even written where Lucian defeats him without any amp.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
hey Smush face.. how does it feel to be my inferior in virtually every way? Not only are you ugly and a look like a dried up prune.. but your a midget with no athletic ability what so ever. That must really suck to look like you do and try to even compare yourself to me. We could ask any number of girls who is better looking and the vast majority, if not all would say me. You're a short smush face.. nobody like those. I'm still waiting for you to take up the challenge of ex's and pictures of them... not just any pictures mind you.. but pictures clearly showing us together (holding hands.. kissing etc) Let's see who's had the better looking girls smush face.

NO smush face he HIDE OUT OF SIGHT and when he heard Lucian coming he attacked him... He tried to sneak attack him because he knew Lucian was a match for him.. Which of course he was.. being that he killed him pretty easily. Running and hiding and attacking someone from the side isn't the sign of somebody who is superior and knows it. In fact, it's a sign of the opposite prune face.

Moron... Throwing somebody with less weight against a smaller volume not dilapidated pillar and breaking it.. is much more impressive than throwing somebody heavier against a wall already with a hole in it and old and dilapidated. He could've thrown a normal human against that wall and it would've broken smush. That isn't proof.

I'm waiting for the proof that Viktor grew MASSIVELY stronger as yo u put it. You haven't provided a single thing showing that. You need to shown Viktor FAILING to beat a Lycan with his hands or struggling to do so. and then doing so to Raze would be proof. So post the proof or concede that you don't know that he couldn't have done that to Raze before as well. If I jump across a pool at 36... doesn't mean I couldn've have at 25.. We'll never know because I didn't try. That is not proof smush. So post the clips of Viktor failing or struggling to kill a lycan with his hands or I've won yet another point.

YOU SAID HE DEFEATED MICHAEL YOU MORON. So post the clip where he defeated him. Having an advantage doesn't mean you'd maintain that advantage. Just like you claim Odin didn't defeat thanos.. because the fight wasn't over yet. Neither was this fight... Viktor was in a good position.. but as I've PROVEN.. fights can swing at any point. Things can look really bleak and then they can be turned around.. happens in MMA.. Boxing... Football.. golf.. you name it.. happens all the time. So post the clip of Viktor ACTUALLY killing him or concede he didn't defeat him.

I already won the argument about them growing stronger while starving.. you haven't provided any proof of that. So, I've already won this point smush.

Viktor lost to Lucian...
Viktor last to his daughter
Viktor couldn't defeat Michael before he was killed

Markus is more powerful and older than Viktor with more abilities than Viktor. Easy Markus win.

He was leaving the battlefield due to it being overrun and attacked as Lucian pressed him. Lucian wanted a fight and Viktor gave it to him. When someone is coming after to fight you in battle and you attack them it isn't a cheapshot. Lucian never killed him. You don't know what the word killed means, Abe. A tactician takes every advantage he can and attacking first to someone who is pressing you is intelligent. You're an idiotic fool who has no real concept of battle tactics.

Prove he could have too see a regular human. Fact remains he is far stronger in Underworld than he was in Rise of the Lycans. I posted proof and you just speculated. Most proof otherwise you must concede.

He did and I posted the feats and the clear cut proof they all get stronger with age. You repeating yourself and denying proof is all you ever do in practically every debate. You embarrass yourself left and right and are a colossal failure. We saw Lucian attack him in Lycan form whereas we see him easily overpower and break Raze's neck. Done. 🙂

He defeated him by Michael being unable to break free and Selene needing to intervene. Thanos didn't need any help and wasn't saved from anyone else from Odin, Abe. The circumstances were different, ugly Abe.

You didn't post proof of your theory. The proof is the older they get the stronger they get. If you feel the hibernation process undermines this you need to post proof. You foolishly stomp around from thread to thread demanding everyone else proves everything whereas you don't ever prove a thing.

Viktor disarmed Lucian and the sun kept a him boxed in. Context.
Viktor won the battle as he held a knife to her throat. He also didn't try to kill her.
Viktor defeated Michael and Selene had to intervene.

Viktor already has defeated someone more powerful and someone with superior speed to Markus. Viktor wins just like he bested Michael.

Just go work on your long face and leave the debating to people who can understand the movies and cite evidence.

🙂

Originally posted by juggerman
So did all other immortals that were around for that time. There is no reason to believe the gap widened at all.

The Lycan form gives them a boost. But again the gap between Raze and Viktor would have remained constant still they would have had the same age gap. For instance say Biktor is 1000 years older than Raze. In 1000 years he will still be 1000 years older and therefore always maintain the gap in power that age range has. It would never shift since there is no implication the rate changes.

She wasn't much younger than Viktor. She was created with Viktor's army iirc so she's maybe hours younger. Could be minutes. Either way Viktor would be overwhelmed in a similar situation

We never saw any other vampire overpower Lycans despite the age advantages. Viktor interacted with two Lycans and with many years between the rise of the Lycans and the first underworld. Viktor showed a huge spike in power when he rather easily overpowered and killed raze.

I don't agree and we never saw anything impressive from Amelia. We don't know how strong or how formidable she was so we can only truly speculate.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalm

Kraven: There's no defeating [Viktor]. [Viktor] grows stronger as we speak.

[b]Lucian: And that is precisely why I need Michael.

Lucian flat-out says he needs Michael because Viktor is now awake, in play, and growing stronger.

It's really that simple. [/B]

it's amazing how people can be so adamant and stubborn that they distort their own perception to accommodate their views. it happens on these boards quite often.

I think Tempest has this on lock. there's almost no disputing it at this point.

Originally posted by Raisen
it's amazing how people can be so adamant and stubborn that they distort their own perception to accommodate their views. it happens on these boards quite often.

I think Tempest has this on lock. there's almost no disputing it at this point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What have I said that is incorrect, unbeliever.

when did I ever even mention you quan? how would you read my comment and derive anything pertaining to you? that is very self absorbed.

I was referring to anybody who refutes tempest. IMO, I don't think there is much to debate because tempest made solid points with almost indisputable evidence from the movie.

Originally posted by Raisen
when did I ever even mention you quan? how would you read my comment and derive anything pertaining to you? that is very self absorbed.

I was referring to anybody who refutes tempest. IMO, I don't think there is much to debate because tempest made solid points with almost indisputable evidence from the movie.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He said Markus wins and is clearly way off base there. Kurupt is like a village idiot around here. I honestly don't see how he logs in every day. But if anyone dares say Markus wins they better damn well know they are going to have to go through me with evidence. It isn't going to happen. I'm the best debater on this board. Hands down.

bro, why did you bypass everything else I said?

Originally posted by Raisen
bro, why did you bypass everything else I said?

Markus

Originally posted by God Cloth Seiya
Markus

Faster, stronger, and a better fighter.