Viktor vs Markus

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
but Marcus was dominating him from the get go in both their fights.

while I agree with most of what ur saying, marcus didn't dominate micheal like u claimed. the first fight was fairly even. after just watching, its even more clear. marcus charged micheal, they hit the back of the truck. they grapple back and forth. marcus lands, micheal lands, grapple. marcus shoves micheal against the side. micheal does the same. they are even until marcus bfrs him. far from the "domination" u implied. the second encounter wasn't even really a fight. caught him off guard first, then impaled him before he could transform.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But that's not the point with which I take issue. Your phrasing indicated that pre-amp!Selene > Viktor, when we all know that that's not true. Viktor would shitstomp Selene.

That's you misinterpreting my phrasing then. I never said Vik would lose a direct fight with a pre amped Selene, I said that Selene's strike didn't come from behind, considering Vik turned around to face Selene when she grabbed his sword. She was fast enough to get a slice through his head before he realised what was going on, but my original point of contention was that Selene didn't slice through Viktor from behind as what Quan had stated.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really. Viktor kept Markus from William for centuries and, despite the deception, marginalized Markus enough to assume ultimate authority over the covens. The deception saved Markus from certain death, yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that Viktor ran roughshod over him, kidnapped and imprisoned his brother, and ruled the vampires in perpetuity.

The ultimate point is, if Marcus wasn't held back by the risk of losing William, he could easily have dismantled Viktor despite all the machinations Vik tried. And ultimately, Viktor could not make the ultimate move against Marcus because of the carefully crafted illusion that if he died, Vik and all other Vampires would go down with him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, it doesn't. Tanis was the information broker; Markus simply used his powers to extract information from him via his blood. That has less to do with tactical acumen and more to do with special powers conferred upon Markus because of his Elder status (powers Viktor shared).

Actually, it was Victors one mistake, it was Singe's blood and the information that provided that proved to be Marcus's opening gambit. He wasn't even aware that Viktor was dead, until he got to Kraven. He knew just from awakening on Singe's memories that his time to move had come. He wasn't just sitting in idle servitude all that time, he had to wait until he could get the information on William's whereabouts before he could move.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And I agree that Markus would win this fight, but you're underselling Viktor as much as Quan is underselling Markus and it's pretty transparent.

Oh, I am calling that bullshit. I never undersold Viktor, not to anywhere near the degree Quan undersold Marcus anyway.

Originally posted by seymourwal
while I agree with most of what ur saying, marcus didn't dominate micheal like u claimed. the first fight was fairly even. after just watching, its even more clear. marcus charged micheal, they hit the back of the truck. they grapple back and forth. marcus lands, micheal lands, grapple. marcus shoves micheal against the side. micheal does the same. they are even until marcus bfrs him. far from the "domination" u implied. the second encounter wasn't even really a fight. caught him off guard first, then impaled him before he could transform.

My point is, he bested Michael in a far shorter time, and when Michael was more experienced with his transformations as well.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That's you misinterpreting my phrasing then. I never said Vik would lose a direct fight with a pre amped Selene, I said that Selene's strike didn't come from behind, considering Vik turned around to face Selene when she grabbed his sword. She was fast enough to get a slice through his head before he realised what was going on, but my original point of contention was that Selene didn't slice through Viktor from behind as what Quan had stated.

ermm

You
Bullshit.

Besides, Marcus is stronger, faster, and the more accomplished fighter. Selene bested Vik in a single strike, before her Alexander amp, and was fought to a standstill by Michael for ages. Marcus on the otherhand bested Michael relatively easily and in a much shorter time, and fought much more closely with an amped Selene.

^ This was your original post and I'd say the context is pretty clear here. You weren't comparing Viktor's durability to Markus's, you were comparing (disingenuously) the quality of their feats. Another poster called you out on it as well: Viktor would curbstomp Selene utterly and there's no point in pretending otherwise, even if Quan is trolling you.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The ultimate point is, if Marcus wasn't held back by the risk of losing William, he could easily have dismantled Viktor despite all the machinations Vik tried. And ultimately, Viktor could not make the ultimate move against Marcus because of the carefully crafted illusion that if he died, Vik and all other Vampires would go down with him.

Do you not see the inherent double standard in your remarks? William was Viktor's leverage against Markus; deception was Markus's leverage against Viktor. Evolution makes it pretty clear that the only reason Markus didn't meet a grisly end early in Viktor's reign was, as you put it, a "carefully crafted illusion." Markus doesn't win imaginary bonus points against Viktor in the realm of cunning because he used lies whereas Viktor used fraternal bonds.

At the end of the day, Viktor kept William imprisoned in order to maintain the existence of his slaves and he managed to usurp Markus and become the dominant vampire authority. Quan's wrong when he says Markus is an idiot (he's not an idiot), but Viktor certainly demonstrated greater cunning.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Actually, it was Victors one mistake, it was Singe's blood and the information that provided that proved to be Marcus's opening gambit. He wasn't even aware that Viktor was dead, until he got to Kraven. He knew just from awakening on Singe's memories that his time to move had come. He wasn't just sitting in idle servitude all that time, he had to wait until he could get the information on William's whereabouts before he could move.

But there again, that has zilch to do with cunning and everything to do with magic.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh, I am calling that bullshit. I never undersold Viktor, not to anywhere near the degree Quan undersold Marcus anyway.

Dude, you've been doing it the entire conversation. Anyway, to recap: Viktor would curbstomp Selene with impunity, Viktor is demonstrably the more capable strategist, and Viktor will still lose this fight.

Originally posted by juggerman
It was a surprise attack and she was probably overwhelmed by numbers. I highly doubt any Lycan could have taken her singlehandedly.

Or Kevin Grevioux is just a sexist. Either/or.

There is also the possibility but this is just me speculating, since I haven't seen the last two filmes, that she having been turned by Viktor was weaker and not able to match a lycan quite as well as he did.

LOL. Viktor was never the "supreme elder/vampire". That has always been Marcus regardless of what Viktor's army was deceived into believing. Also, you have not really given real proof of Viktor's supposedly greater cunning.

It's biologically impossible for Viktor to have been the Supreme Elder. As Markus was the original and would always be more powerful no matter what. On top of that, Markus' sleep is what allowed Viktor to continue to consolidate power. That's the only thing that kept him safe.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL. Viktor was never the "supreme elder/vampire". That has always been Marcus regardless of what Viktor's army was deceived into believing.

Cool story. Viktor was the dominant Elder; no one said he was the toughest.

Originally posted by Star428
Also, you have not really given real proof of Viktor's supposedly greater cunning.

Viktor hijacked Markus's position, imprisoned his brother, rewrote history, and ruled the covens until his death at Selene's hands. He outplayed Markus, plain and simple. Whether or not you choose to accept it is another matter entirely.

Now, feel free to prove your claim that Markus is Viktor's superior in all things.

KingD19
It's biologically impossible for Viktor to have been the Supreme Elder. As Markus was the original and would always be more powerful no matter what.

Of course. Between that fact and context, it should be pretty obvious that I'm not discussing biology, but authority and political power. At the end of the day, Viktor was the dominant Elder.

KingD19
On top of that, Markus' sleep is what allowed Viktor to continue to consolidate power. That's the only thing that kept him safe.

When was this? Pretty sure Viktor "consolidated power" right in front of Markus, at the point of sword and crossbow. Markus recognized his weaker position, deferring to Viktor (however sardonically) as "my lord" in Evolution when Viktor told him "you will learn your place."

The incontrovertible truth is that Viktor played Markus, usurped his position, and ruled the covens. How the two stack up against one another in an IQ test is unknown, but Quan is right: Viktor demonstrated more cunning and tactical acumen than Markus. Now, is Quan right that Markus is an idiot? Hell no.

But for whatever reason, some of you are pretty obviously underselling Viktor. Whether or not that owes to some sort of epic grudge against Quan and everything Quan loves is unknown, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

Originally posted by Star428
Viktor is smarter, my @$$. Marcus is simply better in every category. Including intelligence and cunning. Get over it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
When she struck him? yes he was. Watch the movie.

Yeah, that's why, Marcus in less than 48 hours was able to undo centuries of Vik's work. Tactical genius that dude. Hell, I have no idea what you constitute as tactical acumen here, Vik got bought undone despite all his games. AND, here is a nail to the coffin - Even if Vik was more tactically sound than Marcus, it doesn't mean nothing in a one-on-one fight against someone who is considerably more powerful.

Viktor wasn't alive nor were his forces the same without his leadership and the losses they suffered in the previous film. Bad guys die. Despite Markus and his advantages he ended up dead as well. The difference was Viktor wasn't soundly defeated in a fair fight. Viktor defeated someone stronger and faster in a fight in the first underworld. The fight I cite is the exact proof to the claim here. Markus was Viktor's ***** for centuries just like you're my ***** today.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The ease with which quan is able to successfully troll you all is fascinating. 😐

No.

NoKinda, but not really.

This is pretty disingenuous phrasing, since it suggests Selene conquered Viktor through superior power and/or skill, when neither is the case. Viktor was too busy throttling the shit out of Michael and fell prey to a sneak attack.

We all know that Viktor would curbstomp pre-amp!Selene utterly and effortlessly in a fair fight.

😐

Your second sentence is diametrically opposed to the first.

Yes.

It's a helluva lot easier to indiscriminately destroy shit than meticulously build shit. Marcus soloing the covens and helping drive his race inexorably towards extinction doesn't remotely prove the point you're trying to make here.

Agreed.

😬

No. Viktor became the supreme Elder precisely because of his intellect and cunning. Markus isn't an idiot by any means, but Viktor quite simply outplayed him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Viktor does win.

LOL. Keep telling yourself that dude. Viktor gets his @$$ kicked and I'm done with this thread since the fact that it even exists shows ignorance on the OP's part. This fight is not even a contest and I'm done wasting my time arguing with ignorant people like you.

It's obvious to me that you're trolling because no one could possibly be that stupid. Despite all the obvious evidence that Marcus would pawn Viktor you keep arguing that shit doesn't stink (LOL).

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, it was to paraphrase Marcus's durability in comparison to Viktor, plus, it was a comparative showing between them when using Michael as the centerpeice, since Michael has fought both. See, Michael, despite having only just transformed for the very first time, was keeping Vik off his stride for a decent chunk of time, where as both encounters with Marcus, Michael ended up losing.

Originally posted by Star428
LOL. Keep telling yourself that dude. Viktor gets his @$$ kicked and I'm done with this thread since the fact that it even exists shows ignorance on the OP's part. This fight is not even a contest and I'm done wasting my time arguing with ignorant people like you.

Viktor wins just how he defeated Michael. I couldn't care less who cries about. Markus dying yet again. He was always outplayed when he was around Viktor and only got out of line after Viktor wasn't around anymore. Viktor dominates him yet again.

Originally posted by Star428
It's obvious to me that you're trolling because no one could possibly be that stupid. Despite all the obvious evidence that Marcus would pawn Viktor you keep arguing that shit doesn't stink (LOL).

Originally posted by quanchi112
Viktor wins just how he defeated Michael. I couldn't care less who cries about. Markus dying yet again. He was always outplayed when he was around Viktor and only got out of line after Viktor wasn't around anymore. Viktor dominates him yet again.

Except that Michael was at his weakest at that point, and Vik barely won against him, while Marcus defeated Michael on 2 separate occasions solo and with much greater ease.

Tactical acumen only applies when Vik held all but the last card anyway. He doesn't have any hostages, he doesn't have an army of brain-jacked Death Dealers to back him up, and he has no leverage here. Marcus is the better combatant here, therefore he wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
My opinion is based off evidence whereas yours seemed centered around your fanboyism which is starring Markus.

The only evidence you used was one that does not apply to 1-on-1 combat.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Except that Michael was at his weakest at that point, and Vik barely won against him, while Marcus defeated Michael on 2 separate occasions solo and with much greater ease.

Tactical acumen only applies when Vik held all but the last card anyway. He doesn't have any hostages, he doesn't have an army of brain-jacked Death Dealers to back him up, and he has no leverage here. Marcus is the better combatant here, therefore he wins.

The only evidence you used was one that does not apply to 1-on-1 combat.

Viktor won the fight one on one. Selene is the only reason he survived. So it wasn't one on one only from either side. Viktor did fight him one on one and did get the better of him in one on one combat. Your ignorance is appalling and you running away from the assfisting Gideon pulled on you shows your true colors.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Prove it. I never said Markus couldn't defeat him I said Viktor defeated a faster, stronger opponent based off superior fighting tactics just like he wins here.

Except that wasn't a case of superior tactics, only experience, and Michael has never fought before.

And how long did it take Vik to wittle down Michael, who at the time was absolutely brand new to not only his immortal body, but fighting in general? How long did it take Marcus to accomplish the same thing against a fed, experienced and more confident Michael on 2 separate occasions later? Think on these facts for a while.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Viktor won the fight one on one. Selene is the only reason he survived. So it wasn't one on one only from either side. Viktor did fight him one on one and did get the better of him in one on one combat. Your ignorance is appalling and you running away from the assfisting Gideon pulled on you shows your true colors.

You misrepresenting my words not withstanding, I am comparing how long it took Viktor to overcome Michael, who at that point was at his weakest and most inexperienced, and comparing it to the two fights Marcus had with Michael, in which Marcus won his fights far faster and more decisively, AND Michael was more experienced, and had been fed.

You are out of excuses.

Who?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Except that wasn't a case of superior tactics, only experience, and Michael has never fought before.

And how long did it take Vik to wittle down Michael, who at the time was absolutely brand new to not only his immortal body, but fighting in general? How long did it take Marcus to accomplish the same thing against a fed, experienced and more confident Michael on 2 separate occasions later? Think on these facts for a while.

You misrepresenting my words not withstanding, I am comparing how long it took Viktor to overcome Michael, who at that point was at his weakest and most inexperienced, and comparing it to the two fights Marcus had with Michael, in which Marcus won his fights far faster and more decisively, AND Michael was more experienced, and had been fed.

You are out of excuses.

Who?

Michael showed off speed and power instantly. Quit making excuses. Viktor overcame these attributes and won the confrontation.

You are misinterpreting my case. Markus has advantages over Michael that Viktor didn't have over Michael but won all the same just like he wins against Markus. He will absorb the damage and fight in close proximity to ultimately prove the Viktor.

You are the one called on misinterpreting and arguing against logic itself by the other poster, Gideon. Your ignorance isn't something I am unfamiliar with nor do I find this shocking.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It was a combination of both. He took the jab like attacks so he could get close to him.

He took minor scratches, that's nothing compared to what Marcus tanked, nor is it what Marcus will be delivering to Viktor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael showed off speed and power instantly. Quit making excuses. Viktor overcame these attributes and won the confrontation.

Which is still less than the fight with Marcus. You claim tactics, yes, tactics and experience against Michael who was, for all intents and purposes a newborn.

Michael is not Marcus, Marcus has far greater demonstrated feats and capabilities, and the only things that kept Vik in the game after betraying Marcus, he does not have for this fight. What? is he going to Talk-No-Jutsu Marcus to death? 😆

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are misinterpreting my case. Markus has advantages over Michael that Viktor didn't have over Michael but won all the same just like he wins against Markus. He will absorb the damage and fight in close proximity to ultimately prove the Viktor.

Can you explain to me how this is not A>B>C logic and should not be disregarded for one, and two, how can you garner a victory by saying defeating a lesser opponent equates to defeating a greater opponent? Because it does not.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are the one called on misinterpreting and arguing against logic itself by the other poster, Gideon. Your ignorance isn't something I am unfamiliar with nor do I find this shocking.

Considering Tempest was not arguing based on an interpretation of the movie, but rather how he interpreted my words, this is not something you can use, plus, he has sided with us in the overall debate. he agrees that Marcus would defeat Viktor. You are hiding behind the perceived opinion of someone else to mask your own deficient argument.