Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
If you were being forced, you would.
Yes, but it's clearly not much of a choice. We're not being forced, but the ultimatum is fairly scary. For example, I was a Christian who knowingly and willingly turned away from God. A considerable percentage of Christian-dom believes me to be going to hell for eternity, regardless of how "good" a person I am. It's not forced belief, but it's alternatives are fairly morbid, no?
Originally posted by leonheartmm
^no, people can resist being forced, but at a price. tell me that YOU beleive that people who dont love god will get off scott free in the afterlife then. {obviously you dont}. in the end its just fear, only, sum people have realised that the fear is just made up and is based on nuthing real and have gone beyond it. still doesnt excuse the behaviour of the hypothetical being{god} in question, as long as we are talking ethics.
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.
Furthermore, Deva and Shaky are saying people are forced to love God- where is that evidence? God isn't forcing them to believe in him...
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven
Then their beliefs differ from accepted Catholic dogma, in which Hell is recognized as an actual place/state. I know people like this as well, so your opinion isn't wrong. But neither is it wrong for me to say that such an ultimatum (believe or suffer) exists from nearly every sect of Christianity.
SOME{very few} catholics beleive that every1 will get into heaven. even lesser beleive that unbeleivers wont have to repent in different ways after their deah before they get in{yes, you are vastly exxagerating this phenomenon}, so my point ISNT moot. also, isnt it a basic christian doctrine that to enter into heaven, one has to accept jesus as his saviour???
the evidence is the fact of hell in the afterlife, and the supposed historical accounts of different "wicked" nations being destroyed by god{who didnt love and follow his words}. that is called being forced, ofcourse, not all kinds of FORCING produce affects as there will always be people who go against extreme odds.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Then their beliefs differ from accepted Catholic dogma, in which Hell is recognized as an actual place/state. I know people like this as well, so your opinion isn't wrong. But neither is it wrong for me to say that such an ultimatum (believe or suffer) exists from nearly every sect of Christianity.
Actually, your wrong. It is not dogma that non-believers will go to hell for eternity.
Many prominent Cardinals are supporters of Universalism.
Are you aware of what Dogma means in a Catholic Context?
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.Furthermore, Deva and Shaky are saying people are forced to love God- where is that evidence? God isn't forcing them to believe in him...
Your god does not force me; your god does not do anything. It is the worshipers that do everything. Also, I think we are talking about two different definitions of force. You are talking about physically forcing someone and I am talking about imposing your beliefs on others.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your god does not force me; your god does not do anything. It is the worshipers that do everything. Also, I think we are talking about two different definitions of force. You are talking about physically forcing someone and I am talking about imposing your beliefs on others.
When has he forced his will on you?
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Actually, your wrong. It is not dogma that non-believers will go to hell for eternity.Many prominent Cardinals are supporters of Universalism.
Are you aware of what Dogma means in a Catholic Context?
I said it was dogma that hell is a real place, as a consequence for those who don't adequately follow the doctrine of the Church (whatever "adequate" means). I didn't go beyond that. And yes, I'm aware of what dogma means. It's nice that Cardinals believe that...it means they're starting to come around to the idea that Hell isn't a literal place. But it doesn't change my point that the consequences for non-belief exist in most sects, since we can't know what does and doesn't qualify as "good enough" for heaven. The element of fear still exists as a tool for the religion.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Your initial argument was that God forced people to love him.When has he forced you?
That is not my argument. I am talking about the Christian community forcing me. IMHO the Christian god cannot do anything, because he is not real. Therefore, it is the people who we are talking about, and not a mystical being.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I said it was dogma that hell is a real place, as a consequence for those who don't adequately follow the doctrine of the Church (whatever "adequate" means). I didn't go beyond that. And yes, I'm aware of what dogma means. It's nice that Cardinals believe that...it means they're starting to come around to the idea that Hell isn't a literal place. But it doesn't change my point that the consequences for non-belief exist in most sects, since we can't know what does and doesn't qualify as "good enough" for heaven. The element of fear still exists as a tool for the religion.
They still believe in hell, just that people won't be there forever. A place as hell isn't even dogma.
There is something to the idea that the large Christian majority, simply through their control of so many positions of power (more just coincidence, if 80% of the people are Christian, most people in power should also be) pressures those who are not Christians to convert or at the very least accept some degree of their beliefs, imho.
I think we had this debate about Christmas before... It is very possible to feel alienated because you don't believe what appears to be pervasive at all levels of society.
Originally posted by inimalist
There is something to the idea that the large Christian majority, simply through their control of so many positions of power (more just coincidence, if 80% of the people are Christian, most people in power should also be) pressures those who are not Christians to convert or at the very least accept some degree of their beliefs, imho.I think we had this debate about Christmas before... It is very possible to feel alienated because you don't believe what appears to be pervasive at all levels of society.
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Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
They still believe in hell, just that people won't be there forever. A place as hell isn't even dogma.
What inamilist said, basically. Although a big lulz at you essentially trying to devolve your point into "no one believes in hell, and fear isn't an element of religion." Yes, indeed, nothing is negative about religion, no one thinks hell is a place/state, and the fear of punishment isn't part of Christianity, nor has it ever been.
Christ.
We're not trying to use this to say that religion is wrong. We're just pointing out truths, and you're acting like it doesn't exist. Take the blinders off and own up to some of religion's shortcomings for a change.
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I also don't consider you an authority. At least not nearly as much as a Catholic upbringing that did teach that hell was real, in no uncertain terms, and wasn't anywhere near what might be considered radical or fundamentalist.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
What inamilist said, basically. Although a big lulz at you essentially trying to devolve your point into "no one believes in hell, and fear isn't an element of religion." Yes, indeed, nothing is negative about religion, no one thinks hell is a place/state, and the fear of punishment isn't part of Christianity, nor has it ever been.Christ.
We're not trying to use this to say that religion is wrong. We're just pointing out truths, and you're acting like it doesn't exist. Take the blinders off and own up to some of religion's shortcomings for a change.
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I also don't consider you an authority. At least not nearly as much as a Catholic upbringing that did teach that hell was real, in no uncertain terms, and wasn't anywhere near what might be considered radical or fundamentalist.
Right, your totally misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.
First, my point is not that "noone believes in hell and fear isn't an element of religion." I believe in hell, every Catholic I know believes in hell. I am also fully aware that hell is used to inspire fear in people or to coerce them to believe, for example Pascal's Wager...although its usually the more crude "believe or you'll burn" thing.
My point was simple some people do not believe in hell, some people do believe in hell but do not believe people are punished there forever.
I never denied that- ever. I dont know where the "We're not trying to use this to say that religion is wrong." bit came from, I never even tried to debate that part of it.
The "debate" between us was about Catholic teaching on hell. The reason you lose is because you misunderstand DOGMA. A teaching does not equal a dogma. A Dogma is something which Catholics must believe, there is no debate. Hell has never been so defined.
(For the record, this is the second time you have told me what I am arguing... Although, I realise this is probably my fault it would be good to clarify....your response to that one sentence was a bit...overassuming at best.)
grand, have you ever heard of "being forced into a corner". you are arguing fallaciously. does any1 FORCE a woman to give up her baby by putting a gun to her head and her baby's head and implying that not complying would have the consequence of them both dying. technically{or according to the way you are debating} the woman still has a choice, to not give up her baby and havign them both die. but in reality, the consequence is so severe that despite this "TECHNICAL" choice, she is FORCED by the consequences to choose the alternative of giving up her child. free choice is the choice where there are no extreme consequences to your decision and you make the decision based on you own PERSONAL fealings. if fear is being instilled{as is the case of LOVE with god} into the process than the motivation becomes fear and not sincere love in the first place. so people are AFRAID of god more than they freely choose to LOVE god. they PRETEND to love him kinda like an employee pretends to love an employer. that is not true love} than it isnt free choice.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
grand, have you ever heard of "being forced into a corner". you are arguing fallaciously. does any1 FORCE a woman to give up her baby by putting a gun to her head and her baby's head and implying that not complying would have the consequence of them both dying. technically{or according to the way you are debating} the woman still has a choice, to not give up her baby and havign them both die. but in reality, the consequence is so severe that despite this "TECHNICAL" choice, she is FORCED by the consequences to choose the alternative of giving up her child. free choice is the choice where there are no extreme consequences to your decision and you make the decision based on you own PERSONAL fealings. if fear is being instilled{as is the case of LOVE with god} into the process than the motivation becomes fear and not sincere love in the first place. so people are AFRAID of god more than they freely choose to LOVE god. they PRETEND to love him kinda like an employee pretends to love an employer. that is not true love} than it isnt free choice.
I am debating nothing of the sort, at least I don't mean to be.
The God force thing is that Shaky said that God forces people to love him: I pointed out that he clearly doesn't otherwise everyone would love God...
Also, I believe you and I agree when it comes to the concept of "choice" as I recall.
Furthermore, my replies to Digi about the existence of hell have absolutely nothing to do with what i was saying about God forcing people.
There isn't win/lose in discussions of this nature. To view it as such is childish.
I never tell you what you're saying. What I wrote was simply how I understood everything you had said up to that point. The above posts of yours were the first in our exchange where you acknowledged anything I said as having merit, and the first to confirm a belief in hell and use of fear as a tool, instead of dodging the issue at hand.
So don't finally decide to concede basic beliefs of the church, instead of providing reasons why it maybe doesn't exist, then say I "lose"....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Nothing I said was wrong, except for the slight misuse of the word dogma, which then becomes completely true again if you insert the word "teaching" for dogma.
And how it is used in society isn't along the lines of Pascal's Wager. Listen to a lot of sermons, or something as mundane as children on a playground talking about religion, and the message is simple: obey or go to hell. A powerful tactic when ingrained in a culture over a long period of time, but no less nefarious for it.