Is atheism a sin?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
There isn't win/lose in discussions of this nature. To view it as such is childish.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I never tell you what you're saying. What I wrote was simply how I understood everything you had said up to that point. The above posts of yours were the first in our exchange where you acknowledged anything I said as having merit, and the first to confirm a belief in hell and use of fear as a tool, instead of dodging the issue at hand.

That's because it was only in that post that I began to debate the idea of hell being used as a tool for fear or whatever. Previous to that I was only pointing out that not all Catholics agree on what hell is and what it does.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
So don't finally decide to concede basic beliefs of the church, instead of providing reasons why it maybe doesn't exist, then say I "lose"....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Nothing I said was wrong, except for the slight misuse of the word dogma, which then becomes completely true again if you insert the word "teaching" for dogma.

Good God. I was never ever ever ever ever ever ever trying to debate hell with you, or how preachers use it as an element of control. I pointed out that some Catholics don't believe that punishment in hell is eternal...you then said I was disregarding dogma or whatever- which I wasn't...because it isn't dogma. Also, I am conceding nothing here...you "lose" because you are debating me on things I never said...yes you lose because of that- absolutely.

Also, your "slight misuse" is actually a really big one. Dogma is Catholic FACT. Teaching is Catholic Belief...(ofcourse they are both beliefs but Dogmas you must believe the others you can interpret/debate etc.)

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And how it is used in society isn't along the lines of Pascal's Wager. Listen to a lot of sermons, or something as mundane as children on a playground talking about religion, and the message is simple: obey or go to hell.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Then their beliefs differ from accepted Catholic dogma, in which Hell is recognized as an actual place/state. I know people like this as well, so your opinion isn't wrong. But neither is it wrong for me to say that such an ultimatum (believe or suffer) exists from nearly every sect of Christianity.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Actually, your wrong. It is not dogma that non-believers will go to hell for eternity.

Many prominent Cardinals are supporters of Universalism.

Are you aware of what Dogma means in a Catholic Context?

Note, nowhere do I dispute your "ultimatum" part.

I only mention your misuse of the word Dogma.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Almost as Childish as "I don't hold you as an authority" That kind of makes our discussion a little pointless because you start off by disregarding everything I say.

It wasn't an insult. I don't hold you as one. All you were posting were anecdotes that supported the idea that lots of people don't believe in hell. My upbringing refuted it, which I hold in higher regard. Simple enough.

And yeah, you were refuting the ultimatum by meeting it with all kinds of "well, but {insert group of people} think this" and not addressing the point. It was only when I called you out that you acknowledged it.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Good God. I was never ever ever ever ever ever ever trying to debate hell with you, or how preachers use it as an element of control. I pointed out that some Catholics don't believe that punishment in hell is eternal...you then said I was disregarding dogma or whatever- which I wasn't...because it isn't dogma. Also, I am conceding nothing here...you "lose" because you are debating me on things I never said...yes you lose because of that- absolutely.

Also, your "slight misuse" is actually a really big one. Dogma is Catholic FACT. Teaching is Catholic Belief...(ofcourse they are both beliefs but Dogmas you must believe the others you can interpret/debate etc.)

'cept the misuse didn't invalidate my point, which was general belief in hell as a place and use of it as a fear tactic. Which remain true. I conceded misuse of dogma. But it didn't make me wrong, it just made that word wrong, not the entire point.

Also, framing it in terms of winning and losing is still silly. Do I "win" now because I changed the wording of the point, while still retaining the same meaning? Or do you just feel that much of a need to "win" a debate?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It wasn't an insult. I don't hold you as one. All you were posting were anecdotes that supported the idea that lots of people don't believe in hell. My upbringing refuted it, which I hold in higher regard. Simple enough.

'cept the misuse didn't invalidate my point, which was general belief in hell as a place and use of it as a fear tactic. Which remain true. I conceded misuse of dogma. But it didn't make me wrong, it just made that word wrong, not the entire point.

Also, framing it in terms of winning and losing is still silly. Do I "win" now because I changed the wording of the point, while still retaining the same meaning? Or do you just feel that much of a need to "win" a debate?

You lose because I never ever challenged the point you made. Your losing doesn't mean I win..I can't "win" this debate because I'm not in it.

(Also, I never said they didn't believe in hell)

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
You lose because I never ever challenged the point you made.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And yeah, you were refuting the ultimatum by meeting it with all kinds of "well, but {insert group of people} think this" and not addressing the point. It was only when I called you out that you acknowledged it.

...there ya go. So we could play semantics and say you never actually challenged the point. Which is true. But dodging nasty facts about your beliefs until finally forced to own up to them is just as bad. And once you did acknowledge my points, I wrote that you did and said that you were finally agreeing to the point I was making.

But agreeing with me then saying "ha, look, I AM agreeing so you're wrong." only works if I'm accusing you of it after you've conceded the point. Otherwise, it's just shoddy debating.

And lulz. You win. I'm thoroughly and utterly beaten (despite not having anything but "dogma" shown to be false ermm ). I'm honestly shocked that you're being so juvenile about this.

Are you dogmatically telling me what I was debating?

Let me assure you:

I NEVER disagreed with what you said about hell being used as a tool for control.

All I tried to say was that Hell isn't codified by Catholic Dogma.

Thats it.

I was just pointing out that Catholics are allowed to have varied opinions on hell... that was an anecdote- it had nothing to do with Hell being used to inspire fear and gain control over people...

I was purely trying to point out that it wasn't Dogma.

Why are you so determined to tell me I ever tried to debate with you?

You are debating with yourself.

Its not like I was even trying to say that the mistake you made about Dogma was big...I was just pointing out it wasn't Dogma.

That is it.

(Also, when did I dodge what I believe?)

Also, none of my recent posts have been about any "hell debate" other than the fact that I am trying to say I wasn't debating it.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
(Also, when did I dodge what I believe?)

*sigh*

K, if we're really at this stage.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yes, but it's clearly not much of a choice. We're not being forced, but the ultimatum is fairly scary. For example, I was a Christian who knowingly and willingly turned away from God. A considerable percentage of Christian-dom believes me to be going to hell for eternity, regardless of how "good" a person I am. It's not forced belief, but it's alternatives are fairly morbid, no?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.

Sounds like artful dodging to me. Your point is moot doesn't really sound like it's acknowledging it. Once you accepted the point, I relented and acknowledged that we were in agreement on that much. But it had to be worked out of you.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Are you dogmatically telling me what I was debating?

Well it's not dogma technically, since it's not accepted KMC canon, endorsed by Pope Raz. Or...something. But your own words are fairly irrefutable.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
*sigh*

K, if we're really at this stage.

Your're being quite crafty here aren't you.

I said that not to you, but to Leo...

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^no, people can resist being forced, but at a price. tell me that YOU beleive that people who dont love god will get off scott free in the afterlife then. {obviously you dont}. in the end its just fear, only, sum people have realised that the fear is just made up and is based on nuthing real and have gone beyond it. still doesnt excuse the behaviour of the hypothetical being{god} in question, as long as we are talking ethics.

Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.

Furthermore, Deva and Shaky are saying people are forced to love God- where is that evidence? God isn't forcing them to believe in him...

See that bit where Leo says "tell me that YOU believe that people who dont love god will get off scott free in the afterlife then. {obviously you don't}" He is assuming that Catholics believe that people will go to hell if they don't love God, indeed he is quite sure as indicated by the use of the word "obviously". I pointed out that not all Catholics do believe that (note the word SOME). Therefore, by showing that some Catholics do not believe that people will go to hell for not loving God makes his point moot. I did not address the remainder of what he said.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Sounds like artful dodging to me. Your point is moot doesn't really sound like it's acknowledging it. Once you accepted the point, I relented and acknowledged that we were in agreement on that much. But it had to be worked out of you.

So now we see I didn't dodge it, nor did it have to be worked out of me...indeed I didn't respond to what you said at all. I didn't reply to you until you made the Dogma comment to which i informed you that it wasn't Dogma.

😂

Lulz. Well screw me sideways. His post was about the length of mine, and I took it to be a direct rebuttal of mine.

No craftiness intended. Just an oversight. Apparently you do win (though I'm still right 😉 ). My apologies.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
😂

Lulz. Well screw me sideways. His post was about the length of mine, and I took it to be a direct rebuttal of mine.

No craftiness intended. Just an oversight. Apparently you do win (though I'm still right 😉 ). My apologies.

Haha, well thats that resolved.

Did Jesus say anything about hell? Or was it just invented by the church to be like "ohhh... if you don't join our religion then you shall suffer for all eternity" and people were like "OMG! I don't want that to happen!".

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Did Jesus say anything about hell? Or was it just invented by the church to be like "ohhh... if you don't join our religion then you shall suffer for all eternity" and people were like "OMG! I don't want that to happen!".

He talks about it more than anything else, yes.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
He talks about it more than anything else, yes.

The hell that Jesus was talking about was death. Just look at the word he used.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The hell that Jesus was talking about was death. Just look at the word he used.

This is very true Shakyamunison.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
He talks about it more than anything else, yes.

You are saying Jesus talks about Hell more than anything else?
Are you kidding me? What Bible are you reading?
The Catholic Vulgate?
Because in my Bible he talks more about Love ,Mercy ,Kindness,Grace,Hope,Charity, Tolerance.
How to treat your fellow man and in doing so Glorifying God.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

PLease people check this out.

So was the Hell that we know first talked about by Jesus or the church? Jesus knew WAAAYYYYYYY more about God than some people that thought the earth was at the center of everything (no offense to Christians, but the medieval church was in many ways responsible for the death of thousands-millions of "witches" and "heretics", but the current church is fine 🙂 )?

bump

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
You are saying Jesus talks about Hell more than anything else?
Are you kidding me? What Bible are you reading?
The Catholic Vulgate?
Because in my Bible he talks more about Love ,Mercy ,Kindness,Grace,Hope,Charity, Tolerance.
How to treat your fellow man and in doing so Glorifying God.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

PLease people check this out.

Satan's greatest achievement was convincing man he didn't exist...

This "no-hell" thing must be his second...

Mark 9
43And if thy hand cause thee to fall, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched,

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Satan's greatest achievement was convincing man he didn't exist...

This "no-hell" thing must be his second...

Mark 9
43And if thy hand cause thee to fall, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched,

Catholics 😖

Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief (Born into sin) That He may show Mercy upon ALL"

You give one passage and say Jesus talks more about hell than anything else.

The only punishment is SHEOL,The Grave, Death(No Eternal Life with God) NOTHINGNESS!!!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So was the Hell that we know first talked about by Jesus or the church? Jesus knew WAAAYYYYYYY more about God than some people that thought the earth was at the center of everything (no offense to Christians, but the medieval church was in many ways responsible for the death of thousands-millions of "witches" and "heretics", but the current church is fine 🙂 )?

The Catholic Vulgate is the 1st to mention this.