Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
lol, i cant remember every facet of scientific theory. I reference Dawkins because he is a smart guy who knows much better than me how all of this works. As he should.
So you defer to another authority without taking the time to truly understand what your beliefs are? Knowledge is meaningless without understanding, scientists and religious fundamentalists will both tell you that.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosI understand it, just putting it into words is difficult for me. I trust Mr. Dawkins or Mr. Harris (who i have also read, and really recommend letter to a christian nation. It take half an hour to read and really gets to the heart of the entire atheist arguement.) to put the explanations into words a lot better than i myself can.
So you defer to another authority without taking the time to truly understand what your beliefs are? Knowledge is meaningless without understanding, scientists and religious fundamentalists will both tell you that.
facepalm
No minority is going to enjoy majority approval. Atheists, however, aren't any more discriminated against than any other minority, and less so than most. I won't lie and pretend like there isn't discrimination against atheists. There is; I've seen it and experienced it. However, it's relatively minor compared to what might be expected from groups who feel biased against.
As for the death penalty stuff in Iran, it's a backwards country for a number of reasons. Respect other cultures, sure. But not the practices in specific cultures that are horrific in their intolerance. Christians would probably be equally as likely to be killed over there. It's not an atheism thing, it's a religious intolerance issue for that particular group of people and/or country. Not all Muslims, or all Middle Eastern countries, certainly. But for those that do have such practices, it's their mindsets that are the problem, not something inherently wrong with atheism.
Most people are going to be fairly rational, however, at least the audience that KMC has. So making a "why are atheists discriminated against" is going to get a lot of blank stares and incredulous replies.
Originally posted by DigiMark007i should ask in in the bible belt, or the middle east. i think i'll get a very nice answer there. lol. it astounds me how SMART the people here are. Like, in my school, or community, i can never talk to the type of people and on the subjects that i can on KMC. Kinda like a gathering of intellectuals, in a sense.
facepalmMost people are going to be fairly rational, however, at least the audience that KMC has. So making a "why are atheists discriminated against" is going to get a lot of blank stares and incredulous replies.
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
i should ask in in the bible belt, or the middle east. i think i'll get a very nice answer there. lol. it astounds me how SMART the people here are. Like, in my school, or community, i can never talk to the type of people and on the subjects that i can on KMC. Kinda like a gathering of intellectuals, in a sense.
Bardock! Where are you now?!?!?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not true. A lot of minorities receive majority approval because they possess attributes we look up to. It's minorities that have unpopular differences that are disapproved of.
Fair enough. I meant that they'll never have the mainstream acceptance compared to what is considered the "norm." It's almost a de facto truth about minorities. Generally it's because of "unpopular differences" that certain groups are in a minority, not the majority anyway, thus their status as looked-down upon.
I mean this in a sociological sense, btw. Not a racial one. Racial minorities are a different matter. I'm talking about philosophical, religious, lifestyle, etc. minorities.
Atheists are fortunately not among the most harshly persecuted, or even close to it. That doesn't excuse the discrimination that does exist, but it puts it into perspective.
Originally posted by chithappens
Christians, black people, otaku, athletes, and noobs are all discriminated against.How about you try a more specific approach because this sounds like a cheap way to rant about how your feelings are hurt.
Atheists aren't allowed to testify in court in at least 7 different states because of the fact that they are atheists. That's just one of many examples of how we are treated. (I'm speaking of in America, of course.) Atheists are also not allowed to join the boy scouts. Boy Scouts being a private catholic organization, so it makes sense that Athiests aren't allowed it right? Buddhists however are allowed to join. Not as good of an example are the first, but it's something.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Atheists aren't allowed to testify in court in at least 7 different states because of the fact that they are atheists. That's just one of many examples of how we are treated. (I'm speaking of in America, of course.) Atheists are also not allowed to join the boy scouts. Boy Scouts being a private catholic organization, so it makes sense that Athiests aren't allowed it right? Buddhists however are allowed to join. Not as good of an example are the first, but it's something.
Wait, really? Hell, I just served on a jury. Not quite the same, but close. They didn't even ask for religious affiliation.
Which states, if I may ask?
...
A good indicator might go something like this:
Could a black man become president? Sure, and likely will soon. Could a jewish person? Less likely. Could an atheist? Not a chance.
I'd actually say atheists are the least discriminated against of those 3 groups, by a wide margin in fact, but there's a more pervasive bias against them in terms of numbers, though not degree of discrimination. It's not as pointed, as hateful, as the discrimination that exists for the other two. It's much more tame. But it exists in more total people. I may be wrong, but that's the sense I get both from personal experience and viewing our culture.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Wait, really? Hell, I just served on a jury. Not quite the same, but close. They didn't even ask for religious affiliation.Which states, if I may ask?
...
A good indicator might go something like this:
Could a black man become president? Sure, and likely will soon. Could a jewish person? Less likely. Could an atheist? Not a chance.
I'd actually say atheists are the least discriminated against of those 3 groups, by a wide margin in fact, but there's a more pervasive bias against them in terms of numbers, though not degree of discrimination. It's not as pointed, as hateful, as the discrimination that exists for the other two. It's much more tame. But it exists in more total people. I may be wrong, but that's the sense I get both from personal experience and viewing our culture.
You could be right about them being the least discriminated out of those three. As for the states in which atheists can't testify in court ....
EDIT- I should also mention that they are not allowed to hold public office in some states either. Most likely those that deny them the right to testify in court.
They range from states like Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Tennesse, Texas ect...
I will post the section of their constitution which explicitly says so at a later time. Or you could just take my word for it 😄
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
You could be right about them being the least discriminated out of those three. As for the states in which atheists can't testify in court ....EDIT- I should also mention that they are not allowed to hold public office in some states either. Most likely those that deny them the right to testify in court.
They range from states like Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Tennesse, Texas ect...
I will post the section of their constitution which explicitly says so at a later time. Or you could just take my word for it 😄
These are ancient rules that date from the foundation of the States and are not actually enforced. It was a tactical move to limit positions of power to people who were part of an elite group...its quite common and you can hardly say your discriminated against because of these rules...which are never enforced and probably not even still part of State Law.
Atheists can join the Boy Scouts and most Buddhists are atheists.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
These are ancient rules that date from the foundation of the States and are not actually enforced. It was a tactical move to limit positions of power to people who were part of an elite group...its quite common and you can hardly say your discriminated against because of these rules...which are never enforced and probably not even still part of State Law.Atheists can join the Boy Scouts and most Buddhists are atheists.
That is correct, however they were enforced before the Torcaso v Watkins case in 1961. That's still pretty recent.
🙂 Yes they can, as long as they keep quiet about their beliefs , or declare belief in a God.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/scotus.gay.boyscouts/
"The Boy Scouts, which also exclude atheists and agnostics as leaders, said it has the right to decide who can join its ranks.'
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
That is correct, however they were enforced before the Torcaso v Watkins case in 1961. That's still pretty recent.
Fiftyish years ago, in 1961 they still used Farthings in the UK.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
🙂 Yes they can, as long as they keep quiet about their beliefs , or declare belief in a God.
If they choose to be atheist they should accept some of the difficulties that come with it.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/06/28/scotus.gay.boyscouts/"The Boy Scouts, which also exclude atheists and agnostics as leaders, said it has the right to decide who can join its ranks.'
They're a private organization, the boyscouts can exclude redheaded people if they want to.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Fiftyish years ago, in 1961 they still used Farthings in the UK.If they choose to be atheist they should accept some of the difficulties that come with it.
They're a private organization, the boyscouts can exclude redheaded people if they want to.
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I know which is why I mentioned that was a weak example, because of the fact that the boy scouts are a private organization.
the point I was trying to make is why do they include Buddhists, some of which who are atheistic, but deny atheists/agnostics the right to join?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If they choose to be atheist they should accept some of the difficulties that come with it.
Isn't this a tacit endorsement of the negative bias against them, though? Instead of saying "well that's wrong and we should work against discrimination" it seems to accept it and say "that's the way it is, so deal with it."
I agree that any minority needs to be prepared to some extent, but people should be able to choose whatever they believe without fear of social recrimination. And besides, beliefs generally aren't choices. You believe what you believe. I could "choose" to be a Christian again, but it wouldn't affect my belief (or non-belief, as it were).
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
It does and should.
Again, I understand the legal right of private organizations to relegate their ranks, but it doesn't make their discrimination right. I support it being legal, but don't support it as morally acceptable.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
...I know which is why I mentioned that was a weak example, because of the fact that the boy scouts are a private organization.
the point I was trying to make is why do they include Buddhists, some of which who are atheistic, but deny atheists/agnostics the right to join?
Buddhists believe in various supernatural things such as the soul.