Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You're saying that Mizukage is trying to use reason in his argument? Lol, did you even read them?
Are you joking Mizukage. I was the won who said we should throw both quotes aside and establish a number based on logical reasoning instead of picking and choosing quotes to follow. Let me quote myself on a few occasions from this very thread.
Lets take the Battle of Praestlyn as an example. There was 50,000 Republic troops there. If the Clone Wars touched every single planet in the Republic and every battle had 50,000 troops, then that would mean that there was 50 BILLION Clones.
You take it up with canon. Traviss said 3 million. Because we have conflicting statements, we have to apply some logic. And logic says that they number in the billions.
As I already have shown, if Battle's the size of Praestlyn happened on every planet in the Republic, the number of necessary clones would have been 50 billion. Even if we take the number used at Geonosis and assume that every world had battles that large, then it numbers four times that (50,000 as opposed to 192,000) which means right about 200 billion Clones who have seen action, with maybe another fifty percent still in reserve. That'd put the high end number of clones in the 300 BILLION range.
Later in my post I showed why I feel that both the Traviss quote and the GG quote aren't all that relevant and showed why I feel that the Clone Army probably numbered at 50 billion minimum to a maximum size of about 300 billion.
So tell me, Mizukage, how have I been proclaiming that there were only three million clones, exactly? I've been claiming the opposite and, unlike you or anyone else touting the ridiculous quotes on the size of the CIS (while you all fallaciously choose to use only some quotes), have actually applied reason to my argument.
Originally posted by Mizukage YodaThere are more inconsistencies in SW than this, and have yet to be resolved. Most of us here would like nothing more than to see Karen Traviss' Clone figure (and Karen herself) swelled about a thousand times the size (and popped with a sharpened Mandalorian in Traviss' case). But until a retcon arrives to either firmly establish the 3,000,000 figure or another figure, then Traviss' number is what is taken, there is NO negation. I.e. The Vong would wipe them and the Jedi out.
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This is coming from the guy that thinks three million clones can defeat quintillions of battledroids, and millions of Sep warships. Your just being a Vong fanboy, accept it the CIS and the Republic are far greater threats than you would like to believe. Quadrillions of clones is the figure offered in comparison to quintillions of droids. My Munnilist quote is simply there to prove to you that it is impossible for three million to be an accurate figure, in fact, it seems more likely that Republic propaganda sized there army as smaller in the media. So they could say a thousand Clones held of millions of battle droids.
Seriously man, let this one be. You're obliterating your own credibility here. Don't pull a George Lucas by re-Nuking the Fridge.
Originally posted by Lucien A
There are more inconsistencies in SW than this, and have yet to be resolved. Most of us here would like nothing more than to see Karen Traviss' Clone figure (and Karen herself) swelled about a thousand times the size (and popped with a sharpened Mandalorian in Traviss' case). But until a retcon arrives to either firmly establish the 3,000,000 figure or another figure, then Traviss' number is what is taken, there is NO negation. I.e. The Vong would wipe them and the Jedi out.Seriously man, let this one be. You're obliterating your own credibility here. Don't pull a George Lucas by re-Nuking the Fridge.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So Nai, are you saying that you think the Old Republic could take the Vong? Yes, the Republic had Star Dreadnaughts, but they were VERY limited in number, and I doubt able to defeat the worldships, some of which are almost as big as the first Death Star (120km).
Essentially? Yes.
The point is that in this debate, we just have the Clone Troopers and the on-screen visible space-ships fielded in for the site of the Republic.
That means everything else that belongs to the Republic as it is in the PT is consequently ignored. The main point about the Clone Army was, that is was a fighting force under direct command of the Republic (Senate). Shall we really assume that they have millions of worlds that don't have a single soldier on them? That despite of the fact that even in TPM the "peaceful" people of Naboo and the "peaceful" Gungans are quite able to come up with entire armies? If even those peaceful societies have soldiers, one has to assume that this is also the case for most of the Republic's member planets.
And of course we have the Jedi. Just think about the NJO series and the actions the Jedi performed against the Vong. Even there you have single individuals taking on entire armies of Yuuzhan Vong warriors.
In the end it comes down to the fact that the Vong, while being an entire race of warriors, might still be outnumbered by the forces the Republic can send into battle. And even if that shouldn't be the case, you have 10,000 Jedi on one side where the NJO consisted of what? Dozens? Maybe 100?
Originally posted by Borbarad
That means everything else that belongs to the Republic as it is in the PT is consequently ignored. The main point about the Clone Army was, that is was a fighting force under direct command of the Republic (Senate). Shall we really assume that they have millions of worlds that don't have a single soldier on them? That despite of the fact that even in TPM the "peaceful" people of Naboo and the "peaceful" Gungans are quite able to come up with entire armies? If even those peaceful societies have soldiers, one has to assume that this is also the case for most of the Republic's member planets.
an intriguing point. I would say that most of those worlds have their own private militaries. The question then becomes: Would they help the Vong, or would they stand with the Republic? The Vong tried to coerce more than one group to join their forces. (Mando's, Mercs)
Essentially, what would the Vong have to do to win? Destroy the Republic forces? (those directly under control of the senate?) Destroy the galaxy? Defeat all resistance?
I could see worlds surrendering if it avoided their extinction. The Vong gave no such choices in their invasion in NJO. The world's would definitly do nothing if the only enemy the vong had to fight was the actual Republic forces. They would most likely avoid causing trouble, and then it would be mano-de-mano with the JUST the Vong and directly controlled forces.
Assuming it was the entire galaxy against the Vong, and assuming still that the 3,000,000 number holds, then the Vong could still very well win. BDZ and a superior fleet would wipe out the Republic forces, and the Jedi are gonna end up all but destroyed (taking with them probably 2/3 of the entire Vong). What I find a more interesting option, is whether a Vong vs. Republic scenario would have Palpatine fighting with the Jedi. Or whether mass conscription and military funding would be implemented and be successful in the wake of impending extermination.
Originally posted by truejedi
an intriguing point. I would say that most of those worlds have their own private militaries. The question then becomes: Would they help the Vong, or would they stand with the Republic? The Vong tried to coerce more than one group to join their forces. (Mando's, Mercs)
That is no question. Thread says "Republic VS Vong" which means it's everything the Republic has to defend itself from the wrong, which would include anything under control of the Republic as organisation as well as the member planets.
Essentially, what would the Vong have to do to win? Destroy the Republic forces? (those directly under control of the senate?) Destroy the galaxy? Defeat all resistance?
Ask the thread starter. Asking me it would come down to "destroy the republic forces" and with that I mean Clone Troops + Jedi + any forces the member planets of the Republic have.
I could see worlds surrendering if it avoided their extinction. The Vong gave no such choices in their invasion in NJO. The world's would definitly do nothing if the only enemy the vong had to fight was the actual Republic forces. They would most likely avoid causing trouble, and then it would be mano-de-mano with the JUST the Vong and directly controlled forces.
This is a versus fight and no "let's go political and surrender" play of individual planets. So basically we toss the troops of both sides into a nice battle or war and make arguments who wins.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think Palpatine would try to manipulate the war so that repbulic wins and the jedi order loses a huge number of jedi.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I think Palpatine would try to manipulate the war so that repbulic wins and the jedi order loses a huge number of jedi.
As fanatically devoted as he is to the destruction of the Jedi, I believe Sidious would put a primary emphasis on surviving, followed closely by the utter destruction of the Vong, and the destruction of the Jedi as a third. Not that he hates the Vong more (he clearly doesn't), but because he'll need the Jedi to defeat them.
Though it is possible that Sidious could always side with the Vong or manipulate both sides. As I recall, Shimrra regarded any potential Sith as "an ally."
Originally posted by Borbarad
That is no question. Thread says "Republic VS Vong" which means it's everything the Republic has to defend itself from the wrong, which would include anything under control of the Republic as organisation as well as the member planets.Ask the thread starter. Asking me it would come down to "destroy the republic forces" and with that I mean Clone Troops + Jedi + any forces the member planets of the Republic have.
This is a versus fight and no "let's go political and surrender" play of individual planets. So basically we toss the troops of both sides into a nice battle or war and make arguments who wins.
then i think i would go with the Republic in that case. Sheer numbers, and numbers slightly smarter than the CIS. You have to remember, that ALL worlds and their forces would INCLUDE the massive droid army of the CIS.
Originally posted by truejedi
then i think i would go with the Republic in that case. Sheer numbers, and numbers slightly smarter than the CIS. You have to remember, that ALL worlds and their forces would INCLUDE the massive droid army of the CIS.
Both the college of Moffs and Nom Anor shared the opinion that the Empire at its height would have, force-to-force, crushed the Yuuzhan Vong with "ease" and in their first encounter. That said, Glentract is correct, neither the Republic nor the Confederacy -- even combined) are a match for the Galactic Empire either. I only give the Confederacy possible victory due to sheer numbers. Ship-to-ship, they are outclassed; a Vong cruiser would obliterate dozens of them before going down.
Keep in mind that Darth Sidious didn't feel, if Kinman Doriana's words are to be taken literally, that either the Republic or the Confederacy would be sufficient enough to deal with the Vong, thus one of his major reasons for creating the Empire.
If the CIS wins, it is only through numbers.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No, the Sith have waited a thousand years to KO the Jedi. He would not risk himself and the entire Galaxy for a simple revenge. Palps would wait until the war was over and find someway to destroy the Jedi afterwards.
You don't think that Palpatine might not try to have the jedi order send more jedi then deemed necessary in a particular battle to slowly weaken their numbers like he did prior to the CW. I thought that since he gave the OK for the outbound flight mission (and for the original attack on it by the trade federation) was go start weakening the jedi's numbers and by this time I'm pretty sure he knew of the vong's existence yet he probably didn't have a clue as to their numbers. (I am aware that,that could be a reason for and against my theory)
@Gideon
That's pretty interesting, do you know which book Shimrra stated that in?