Old Republic Vs. Yuzzan Vong

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Because they went to some planets and raised army's there. Remember the battle with Halcyon and Anakin?

The main thing I would like to ask you is where all the clones would have come from.

Well, defining what 'units' meant, all the cloning centers across Kamino, the Spaarti facilities...

Originally posted by Gideon
Traviss is a moron. Three million clones versus quintillions of Confederacy droids? It's impossible. Impossible.

Edit: Glentract, I want the source that says that the Republic organized planetary militias on such a level that it bolstered their three million clone number to the point that they could fight the Confederacy on an even footing. Quotes if possible.

I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.

Well, defining what 'units' meant, all the cloning centers across Kamino, the Spaarti facilities...

I'm going to quote myself because I guess nobody read it the first time. So somehow it took Kamino ten years to produce 1.2 million troops and all of the sudden they produced millions of times that?

Now, you're going to say that every member world of the Republic somehow produced an average of a BILLION troops EACH. Obviously not.

Assuming every Republic planet equalled Kamino's Clone production during the first ten years it'd only be 1.2 trillion troops. That's barely a thousandth of the figures this fool Mizukage is claiming and that assumes EVERY planet in the Republic is working on it. The VAST majority were not.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.

And yet, a month after RotS, the fledgling Imperial Army is referred to as "one of the largest armies in history." So even after being decimated by three years of warfare, they can contend with any other in galactic history in terms of numbers? The three million figure wouldn't allow that to happen.

I mean, the soldier complements for the Republic and Imperial Star Destroyers even defy that number. Traviss, idiot that she is, doesn't realize that her number has been shot down in other sources.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.

I'm going to quote myself because I guess nobody read it the first time. So somehow it took Kamino ten years to produce 1.2 million troops and all of the sudden they produced millions of times that?

Now, you're going to say that every member world of the Republic somehow produced an average of a BILLION troops EACH. Obviously not.

Assuming every Republic planet equalled Kamino's Clone production during the first ten years it'd only be 1.2 trillion troops. That's barely a thousandth of the figures this fool Mizukage is claiming and that assumes EVERY planet in the Republic is working on it. The VAST majority were not.

The Galactic Empire boasted a membership of a million planets. Wookieepedia also includes "fifty million colonies, protectorates, and governorships" throughout the galaxy as well.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I wasn't saying that the Republic used that to fight them on even footing. I was merely stating that we have at least one instance of them raising a non-Clone Army.

Quintillion's is also impossible, at least as much as the three million number. That's a TRILLION droids for EVERY SINGLE PLANET in the war. Most planets don't have a thousandth of that population.

Take it up with the canon, then. The Story of general Grievous and the Cross Sections certainly say that there were 'quintillions' of droids.

Moreover, there were non-clone fighters, but the clones were the massive army of the Republic

I'm going to quote myself because I guess nobody read it the first time. So somehow it took Kamino ten years to produce 1.2 million troops and all of the sudden they produced millions of times that?

Assuming every Republic planet equalled Kamino's Clone production during the first ten years it'd only be 1.2 trillion troops. That's barely a thousandth of the figures this fool Mizukage is claiming and that assumes EVERY planet in the Republic is working on it. The VAST majority were not.

Either way, three million? Ludicrous in the extreme. There would've only been TWO million left by the time of the Cestus Deception and they were dying all the time

Originally posted by Gideon

I'm in the middle of a multi-page thread on the Jedi Council Forums arguing in favor of a massive retcon that dismisses all stories involving post-RotJ Sith, including Dark Empire.

But really, Faunus, the idea that Dark Empire, as bad as it is, compares to the three million clone figure is extremely stupid.

But as far as common sense and plausibility - even with relative suspension of disbelief taken into account - are concerned? The "three million" figure is as bad as they get, and Pellaeon's calculation of the Empire at its peak wielding 25,000 SDs is a distant second.

I mean, hell, arguing on technicality, there is nothing that says the Sith were destroyed "permenantly."

There is no such saving grace for Traviss's ignorance. It defies all reason. As Enyalus pointed out, a number twice that size was unable to conquer half of China. You expect it to be suitable to conquer half of the galaxy?

I'm sorry, but DE is nowhere near as bad nor as stupid, and even in your bitterness towards it, I know that you know better.

Edit: Glentract, when you figure out a way that the Republic could have performed well in combat against the Confederacy with only three million clones, post it.

I'm content with dissolving DE, since Palpatine is referred to as the most powerful Sith even prior to that. You will never escape it, Faunus. Ha. Hahah.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!

😱 😆

And Traviss was the moron who took the "three million units" idea and turned it into "three million clones."

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm content with dissolving DE, since Palpatine is referred to as the most powerful Sith even prior to that.

You will never escape it, Faunus. Ha. Hahah.

And Traviss was the moron who took the "three million units" idea and turned it into "three million clones."

Why does she have work?

Originally posted by Faunus
Not by an omniscient narrator. 🥷

Vader: The Ultimate Guide. Palpatine's still the best, even without DE. Your efforts are futile. Suck it.

Ha. Escape. Escape81 = Gideon.

LOL!

No.

Oh.

Why does she have work?

Honestly, dude, I don't know. Seriously. She's caught hell for her minimalism for years and she's legendary at Stardestroyer.net for verbally abusing and harassing her detractors (she once referred to them as "Talifans"😉. In Order 66, rather than simply face her stupidity and retcon it, she writes a scene where a former Republic official hosts a press conference and accused the Republic of aggrandizing the numbers at the Confederacy's disposal to prolong the war in order for Palpatine to acquire more power. Too bad her minimalism is retconned by a visual guide and numerous sourcebooks.

She's also legendary for painting Jedi in a bad light. She writes in the novelization of the Clone Wars movie that Mace Windu would rather see Rotta the Hutt, Jabba's newborn son, die because his father is a gangster. We see the scene through Palpatine's point of view, and he delights in mocking the Jedi for their hypocrisy and even "takes the moral high ground" and makes Windu look like an idiot.

I know Windu isn't charismatic and can be a prick, but he's a Jedi. Methinks he'd gladly take a blaster bold to protect any child, regardless of heritage.

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader: The Ultimate Guide. Palpatine's still the best, even without DE. Your efforts are futile. Suck it.

LOL!

No.

Honestly, dude, I don't know. Seriously. She's caught hell for her minimalism for years and she's legendary at Stardestroyer.net for verbally abusing and harassing her detractors (she once referred to them as "Talifans"😉. In Order 66, rather than simply face her stupidity and retcon it, she writes a scene where a former Republic official hosts a press conference and accused the Republic of aggrandizing the numbers at the Confederacy's disposal to prolong the war in order for Palpatine to acquire more power. Too bad her minimalism is retconned by a visual guide and numerous sourcebooks.

She's also legendary for painting Jedi in a bad light. She writes in the novelization of the Clone Wars movie that Mace Windu would rather see Rotta the Hutt, Jabba's newborn son, die because his father is a gangster. We see the scene through Palpatine's point of view, and he delights in mocking the Jedi for their hypocrisy and even "takes the moral high ground" and makes Windu look like an idiot.

Surprise, surprise.

I know Windu isn't charismatic and can be a prick, but he's a Jedi. Methinks he'd gladly take a blaster bold to protect any child, regardless of heritage.

Originally posted by Faunus
QUOTE PLZ.

Absolutely.

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide, page 19.

Face it, sir. You're done. Palpatine is the only Sith Lord named the most powerful in history and more than once.

This is the end of your insignificant rebellion.

I do not approve of your lolage. While the Captain is taking over Kuwait and North Korea, I shall send my apprentice's secret apprentice to indiscriminately inflict ridiculous amounts of damage on your hometown for no apparent reason.

The Captain is my servant and my Master, the Great Publius, shall protect me.

Such as...?

Read "Rattling the Saber" by Publius. It's an argument on the strategic organization of the Imperial Starfleet and what it consists of (and it is sourced).

He wants the kid to die because he's the son of a gangster? That makes no sense.

Surprise, surprise.

No, he'd rather see the kid die than send Jedi assets to Hutt Space to recover him, knowing full well that such an action would not only be a good deed insofar as the rescue of a kidnapped innocent, but Jabba would also allow the Republic exclusive access to Hutt Space and would grant his support against the Confederacy.

Palpatine mocks him and then, outloud, takes the moral highground (which "delights" him) and forces them to go anyway, making Windu look like an idiot.

Shatterpoint agrees.

Yeah.

And after reading "Tyranny Reborn," a remarkable piece of fanfiction, I agree with the abolishment of all post-RotJ Sith, including DE Palpatine, even though Publius's works are still greater than all of the others in the continuity.

Stellar writing can't make up for the blatant contradiction of the prophecy. The Sith should be permenantly dead after Endor. Too bad these idiots at TFN disagree.

Originally posted by Gideon
Honestly, dude, I don't know. Seriously. She's caught hell for her minimalism for years and she's legendary at Stardestroyer.net for verbally abusing and harassing her detractors (she once referred to them as "Talifans"😉

Any particular threads that come to mind? I'd love to read them.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Any particular threads that come to mind? I'd love to read them.

They've all been locked or deleted at TFN.

Honestly Legacy era should be thousands of years after Endor, led by like Palpatine's spirit, I mean Exar waited thousands, and as did most other Sith whoose spirits remained.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Honestly Legacy era should be thousands of years after Endor, led by like Palpatine's spirit, I mean Exar waited thousands, and as did most other Sith whoose spirits remained.

Absolutely not. It should all be retconned. With the prophecy fulfilled, the Sith and Palpatine should be gone forever. My comparison at TFN was with the Nazis; you'll never forget what they have done, how they have impacted the world, and they'll always be feared and reviled, but they're finished. Gone. Kaput.

My proposition was that after the Imperial Remnant was dealt with or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatnot, an up-and-coming darksider could objectively look at things. In 25,000 years, the Sith only ever succeeded once and ruled the galaxy for two decades. Not exactly a remarkable track record, not to mention their penchant for in-fighting. A rational person would simply acquire as much Sithian knowledge and techniques remaining and apply them to a new order with a new doctrine. Inspired by Sith? Sure. But not the same thing.

Maybe Jacen wasn't a sith? Think of Ventress. She called herself a sith. She used the dark side. Dooku said she wasn't a sith. How do we know caedus wasn't just a wannabe? Same goes for Lumiya, who trained him.

And in what context does Travis' quote about 3,000,000 clones come from? No chance its been taken out of context? (Gideon, do you have the quote?)

and i agree with faunus that we should indeed abolish DE, though why stop there? lets just take comics out of the equation, period. (or at least pictures. Text counts towards canon only, YAY!)
(pretty please? 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 )

Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely not. It should all be retconned. With the prophecy fulfilled, the Sith and Palpatine should be gone forever. My comparison at TFN was with the Nazis; you'll never forget what they have done, how they have impacted the world, and they'll always be feared and reviled, but they're finished. Gone. Kaput.

My proposition was that after the Imperial Remnant was dealt with or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatnot, an up-and-coming darksider could objectively look at things. In 25,000 years, the Sith only ever succeeded once and ruled the galaxy for two decades. Not exactly a remarkable track record, not to mention their penchant for in-fighting. A rational person would simply acquire as much Sithian knowledge and techniques remaining and apply them to a new order with a new doctrine. Inspired by Sith? Sure. But not the same thing.

Originally posted by Gideon
And yet, a month after RotS, the fledgling Imperial Army is referred to as "one of the largest armies in history." So even after being decimated by three years of warfare, they can contend with any other in galactic history in terms of numbers? The three million figure wouldn't allow that to happen.

I mean, the soldier complements for the Republic and Imperial Star Destroyers even defy that number. Traviss, idiot that she is, doesn't realize that her number has been shot down in other sources.

It still would have been one of the largest in history without increasing from it's Clone Wars size. Three million clone troopers, plus several thousand ships puts them above bascially any government besides the GE, New Republic, CIS (which had a bigger army), and the Vong. Top five, not bad.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There were not a thousand systems, Dooku said ten thousand MORE systems would rally to their cause meaning they already had thousands at the time of AOTC. "The exact number of planets in the Republic fluctuated, but in 21 BBY it was a little less than 1.3 million planets. "

Notice that my numbers estimate that there is a million Republic systems, which is generous given that the CIS has like half of them.

Now fathom how the Republic can defend itself with three million clones. I am not making random guesses as you think I am using canon statements as my basis, Dooku states a hundred to one to a king he was trying to gain support from. [/B]

Because far from every planet ever had a battle on it.

BTW, Karen Traviss is a canon source to, at least as much as Dooku. YOU do not pick and chose which canon you want to follow.

[i] These figures seem pretty accurate but even if he was exaggerating there are still quadrillions of clones. After all the Coruscant Guard alone could have a billion clones to police Coruscant's trillion inhabitants(yes it is an all clone unit commanded by Commander Fox to police Coruscant.) [/B]

No, quadrillions of clones is a totally ridiculous number also. Also, if you're going to take Coruscant as the norm (and I'd like to see your source for a billion clones being there) then you're argument is totally flawed. Coruscant would be a ridiculous extreme.

[i]Now instead of calling me a fool, stop using Karen Traviss the killer of EU into the picture and use common sense and the Canon statements given, not these ridiculous BS numbers, the Clone army did not number in millions it had to be far greater than that. [/B]

Lets take the Battle of Praestlyn as an example. There was 50,000 Republic troops there. If the Clone Wars touched every single planet in the Republic and every battle had 50,000 troops, then that would mean that there was 50 BILLION Clones. In otherwords, less than one thousandth of the ridiculous numbers you're claiming.

[i]Originally posted by Lightsnake
Take it up with the canon, then. The Story of general Grievous and the Cross Sections certainly say that there were 'quintillions' of droids.

You take it up with canon. Traviss said 3 million. Because we have conflicting statements, we have to apply some logic. And logic says that they number in the billions.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, there were non-clone fighters, but the clones were the massive army of the Republic

I never contested that fact.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Again: Define 'units,' or the timing.

A unit would probably be a trooper. Can you give good reason for an alternate definition? If it was, say, a battalion, then that puts the number of clones into the billions, which is what I would have guessed.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For starters, Kamino isn't isolated to that one Cloning facility, but all across the planet, plus other cloning facilities

However, the number of cloning facilities isn't numbered in the millions, which is the minimum necessary to produce trillions or quadrillions of Clones.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Either way, three million? Ludicrous in the extreme. There would've only been TWO million left by the time of the Cestus Deception and they were dying all the time

I'm not saying that there were only three million. I am saying that if you want to disregard one quote you need to disregard another and instead use logic to figure it out. You can't pick and choose canon the way Mizukage wants to.

As I already have shown, if Battle's the size of Praestlyn happened on every planet in the Republic, the number of necessary clones would have been 50 billion. Even if we take the number used at Geonosis and assume that every world had battles that large, then it numbers four times that (50,000 as opposed to 192,000) which means right about 200 billion Clones who have seen action, with maybe another fifty percent still in reserve. That'd put the high end number of clones in the 300 BILLION range.

It still would have been one of the largest in history without increasing from it's Clone Wars size. Three million clone troopers, plus several thousand ships puts them above bascially any government besides the GE, New Republic, CIS (which had a bigger army), and the Vong. Top five, not bad.

Except that LoE says that only half of the original Grand Army was still in fighting form. So your contention is that 1.5 million troopers is enough to contend with the Galactic Empire, New Republic, Confederacy, and Vong in terms of size.

Really, Glentract, for such a logistics nut, what the hell are you doing arguing this?