Originally posted by Faunus
Vader is 80% as powerful as OT Sidious, who you stated was "far" more powerful than his RotS counterpart. Vader is probably very close to RotS Palpatine in Force-power.
🙁 I stated DE Sidious was "far" more powerful than his ROTS counterpart. But! I agree with you, Vader's probably quite close to ROTS Palpatine's power. But close doesn't mean superior. And he couldn't break through Yoda's defenses. I don't see Vader faring any better.
Originally posted by Enyalus
🙁 I stated DE Sidious was "far" more powerful than his ROTS counterpart. But! I agree with you, Vader's probably quite close to ROTS Palpatine's power. But close doesn't mean superior. And he couldn't break through Yoda's defenses. I don't see Vader faring any better.
Yet your assertion was that Yoda would "easily" defeat Vader in all categories. If, as you say, Vader is close to Palpatine in power, he certainly won't "easily" take the Force battle.
Originally posted by Gideon
Yet your assertion was that Yoda would "easily" defeat Vader in all categories. If, as you say, Vader is close to Palpatine in power, he certainly won't "easily" take the Force battle.
If Yoda is superior in power, he should be able to use Sever Force, or Morichro, or a number of other techniques to get the win without the CIS-infested battle he had with Sidious.
Originally posted by Enyalus
If Yoda is superior in power, he should be able to use Sever Force, or Morichro, or a number of other techniques to get the win without the CIS-infested battle he had with Sidious.
You know, you're being terribly hypocritical. You'll chalk up Yoda's loss to Sidious as CIS and yet you're more than happy to credit Maul's success over Vader as superiority.
Originally posted by Gideon
You know, you're being terribly hypocritical. You'll chalk up Yoda's loss to Sidious as CIS and yet you're more than happy to credit Maul's success over Vader as superiority.
I've acknowledged Vader's superior power. I was using Maul's win to show his superior sabers skills (mostly).
The fact that during his duel with the most powerful Sith Lord in history all that Yoda uses is his saber and a Force Push is...CIS. You wouldn't agree?
Originally posted by Enyalus
I've acknowledged Vader's superior power. I was using Maul's win to show his superior sabers skills (mostly).The fact that during his duel with the most powerful Sith Lord in history all that Yoda uses is his saber and a Force Push is...CIS. You wouldn't agree?
Right, but you periodically bring up how superior Force users lose to superior lightsaber combatants all the time. If you want to bring up CIS for Yoda, then the truth is that, in most cases, Darth Sidious would crush Mace Windu, Count Dooku would crush Anakin Skywalker, anybody would crush General Grievous, and Darth Vader would crush Luke Skywalker.
Originally posted by Gideon
Right, but you periodically bring up how superior Force users lose to superior lightsaber combatants all the time. If you want to bring up CIS for Yoda, then the truth is that, in most cases, Darth Sidious would crush Mace Windu, Count Dooku would crush Anakin Skywalker, anybody would crush General Grievous, and Darth Vader would crush Luke Skywalker.
Extenuating circumstances for Mace's victory over Sidious (Vaapad).
Dooku's a superior Force user, true, but Anakin dwarfs him in raw power. So, I don't think it is such a stretch. But even in his victory there were extenuating circumstances (Anakin had to be clear-headed - once Dooku taunted him, he became easy to handle again according to the novel).
Anyone should crush Grievous, true. Total CIS, every time.
Darth Vader could've crushed Luke if he was trying to kill him. He wasn't. So it's not CIS. But in general, yeah - if they were to go "all out" and ROTJ Luke still won - I'd call CIS.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Extenuating circumstances for Mace's victory over Sidious (Vaapad).
Vaapad doesn't negate Sidious's Force advantage. Merely his Force-enhanced speed. Furthermore, Windu wasn't utilizing Vaapad to its extremes during the initial part of the fight.
Dooku's a superior Force user, true, but Anakin dwarfs him in raw power. So, I don't think it is such a stretch. But even in his victory there were extenuating circumstances (Anakin had to be clear-headed - once Dooku taunted him, he became easy to handle again according to the novel).
Anakin's manifested power and realized power do not equal that of Count Dooku's in terms of Force command. Dooku could have easily disposed of him with the Force.
See, now this line of questioning I like.
Originally posted by Gideon
Vaapad doesn't negate Sidious's Force advantage. Merely his Force-enhanced speed. Furthermore, Windu wasn't utilizing Vaapad to its extremes during the initial part of the fight.
I see your point. Sidious would've still had the advantage in Force mastery. That he doesn't use a Force Drain or stasis or...something else (it's 3 AM, cut me slack), can be considered CIS if you look at it in a strict sense. However, as you said, Vaapad negated Sidious' speed advantage and gave Windu a considerable boost. Therefore, Palpatine wouldn't have had a lot of time to do something of the sort.
It took Mace, what...5-8 seconds to sink into Vaapad? Beating arguably the greatest swordsman of the PT era in that amount of time could be considered far-fetched.
Originally posted by Gideon
Anakin's manifested power and realized power do not equal that of Count Dooku's in terms of Force command. Dooku could have easily disposed of him with the Force.
How? TK? Because the novelization shows Dooku throwing objects at him yet Anakin coming on, swatting them away with the Force. Lightning? Won't work, as evidenced by Obi-Wan and Anakin himself blocking it before. Force Grip? Anakin's Force shielding is probably far stronger than Obi-Wan's, considering their difference in power.
Originally posted by Enyalus
See, now this line of questioning I like.I see your point. Sidious would've still had the advantage in Force mastery. That he doesn't use a Force Drain or stasis or...something else (it's 3 AM, cut me slack), can be considered CIS if you look at it in a strict sense. However, as you said, Vaapad negated Sidious' speed advantage and gave Windu a considerable boost. Therefore, Palpatine wouldn't have had a lot of time to do something of the sort.
It took Mace, what...5-8 seconds to sink into Vaapad? Beating arguably the greatest swordsman of the PT era in that amount of time could be considered far-fetched.
How? TK? Because the novelization shows Dooku throwing objects at him yet Anakin coming on, swatting them away with the Force. Lightning? Won't work, as evidenced by Obi-Wan and Anakin himself blocking it before. Force Grip? Anakin's Force shielding is probably far stronger than Obi-Wan's, considering their difference in power. [/B]
Originally posted by Ultimate Vader
Oh no. The question is consuming me! Help!!
Well, there are pet theories. But they will cause you more anguish.
But if you want a good generalization, then it is best to think of Vader as inferior to Yoda in every way.
Remember, it does not cover all - just a good generalization that satisfies most.
do we consider OT Yoda superior to ROTS yoda? we should if we are going to call OT sidious stronger than ROTS sidious. Both statements are based on logic rather than facts, because supposedly they became mroe powerful as they aged. (as evidenced by... almost everyone. ) Qui Gonn is maybe the only jedi who was considered more powerful in his youth than in his fight in TPM.