Darth Vader vs Master Yoda

Originally posted by truejedi
do we consider OT Yoda superior to ROTS yoda? we should if we are going to call OT sidious stronger than ROTS sidious. Both statements are based on logic rather than facts, because supposedly they became mroe powerful as they aged. (as evidenced by... almost everyone. ) Qui Gonn is maybe the only jedi who was considered more powerful in his youth than in his fight in TPM.

No.

We consider OT Sidious more powerful because he dedicated himself thoroughly to the study of the Force for those two decades. It's all he did. Yoda didn't.

actually, yes... he did, and without the distraction of running an Empire. What do you think Yoda was doing on dagobah? Read pages 409 and 410 of ROTS novelization, i don't have time to post it here, but i imagine you have it right? He became an apprentice again, which makes it seem like he was going to learn quite a bit. Besides, what else was he going to do on dagobah? excercise? watch porno?

Originally posted by truejedi
actually, yes... he did, and without the distraction of running an Empire. What do you think Yoda was doing on dagobah? Read pages 409 and 410 of ROTS novelization, i don't have time to post it here, but i imagine you have it right? He became an apprentice again, which makes it seem like he was going to learn quite a bit. Besides, what else was he going to do on dagobah? excercise? watch porno?

Palpatine had galaxy-spanning resources at his disposal and collected "the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and mastered study of esoteric Force cults and organizations. Qui-Gon Jinn, who is neither omniscient nor all powerful nor nearly as knowledgeable as Palpatine, merely taught Yoda the ability to retain one's identity in the Force.

It's not comparable. If you have something that implies as much, post it.

Palpatine left the duties of the Empire to his advisors according to the Ultimate Visual Guide while he dedicated himself to the study of the Force. I strongly urge you not to speak of that which you are ignorant.

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine had galaxy-spanning resources at his disposal and collected "the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and mastered study of esoteric Force cults and organizations. Qui-Gon Jinn, who is neither omniscient nor all powerful nor nearly as knowledgeable as Palpatine, merely taught Yoda the ability to retain one's identity in the Force.

It's not comparable. If you have something that implies as much, post it.

Palpatine left the duties of the Empire to his advisors according to the Ultimate Visual Guide while he dedicated himself to the study of the Force. I strongly urge you not to speak of that which you are ignorant.

While I mostly agree...don't Force Ghosts have some kind of omniscience?

Originally posted by Gideon
Palpatine had galaxy-spanning resources at his disposal and collected "the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and mastered study of esoteric Force cults and organizations. Qui-Gon Jinn, who is neither omniscient nor all powerful nor nearly as knowledgeable as Palpatine, merely taught Yoda the ability to retain one's identity in the Force.

It's not comparable. If you have something that implies as much, post it.

Palpatine left the duties of the Empire to his advisors according to the Ultimate Visual Guide while he dedicated himself to the study of the Force. I strongly urge you not to speak of that which you are ignorant.

Actually Gideon, you need to read posts more carefully. Did i ever say that Yoda's level of force learning was on par with sidious's? nay, i did not. This conversation went something like this
"can we assume that ROTS yoda improved"

you said "We consider OT Sidious more powerful because he dedicated himself thoroughly to the study of the Force for those two decades. It's all he did. Yoda didn't."

Thus, you stated that yoda didn't dedicate himself to studying the force. I disagreed, because he actually did dedicated himself to studying the force. I didn't disagree that ROTS Yoda>ESB Yoda.
Just because one guy sits at home and studies the multiplication tables on wikki all day every day, and another guy goes to Purdue and gets a doctorate in mathematics doesn't mean they didn't both dedicate themselves to studying math. You are trying to disprove a point i'm not trying to make. My original post was a question.

Yes, retirement is looking very nice right now.

This was your original contention:

Both statements are based on logic rather than facts, because supposedly they became mroe powerful as they aged.

"Age" has nothing to do with it. The Emperor became more powerful because he dedicated himself to study of the dark side of the Force for his two decade reign, gathering "the greatest works of knowledge from a million worlds" and mastering the Force in "all its guises."

In comparison, Yoda was self-exiled on a backwater world without access to any great beacon of knowledge. He 'apprenticed' himself to Qui-Gon Jinn in order to learn the secret of retaining one's identity after death. That isn't the same thing.

Spending two decades learning one technique isn't an improvement, nor would I translate that to power.

gideon, i'm not arguing with you here. i don't think you are getting that. You answered the part of my post that you quoted above in your original reply. We were using increased force knowledge to increase their power, and THAT is what the improvement was based on. I was okay with that part of your answer. I disagreed on one itty bitty point, and that was that yoda was indeed studying the force, and not nature watching in the swamps all day.

Anakin did the technique easily 🙂

Yoda takes all of them. Vader is no match for yoda in lightsaber skill and all out, yoda would kill him any day, any time.

As for the force contest, i would like to question something: many people say Sidious got more powerful in the 20 years period between PT and OT because he could increase his force knowledge. Fair enough. However, he got stronger because his force knowledge, thus the quantity of techniques at his disposal increased.

However, I don't see how could this improve his raw power. I mean, what could he do to make his force lightning stronger, for example? He was already a master of this technique by ROTS, I think that's quite clear, so who this increased force knowledge would have a direct effect in the emperor's sheer force power or his force lightning for example?

I think once you understand the Dark Side better, you unlock more of your raw potential and thus become more powerful. That's fairly clear from PoD.

But by ROTS Sidious had already understood the dark side quite well. I think dooku makes this quite clear in ROTS novelization when he talks about sidious. Besides, as far as force knowledge is concern, he had already tons of knowledge at his disposal by Bane (whose source of knowledge is Darth Revan in person) and all that was collect by his order and his predecessors, like darth plagueis for example, which already accounted with several holocrons and artifacts if I am not wrong.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
But by ROTS Sidious had already understood the dark side quite well. I think dooku makes this quite clear in ROTS novelization when he talks about sidious.

Just because Dooku had a hard-on for Sidious and spoke about him with absolute awe doesn't make his word law.

Originally posted by Darth Angel
Besides, as far as force knowledge is concern, he had already tons of knowledge at his disposal by Bane (whose source of knowledge is Darth Revan in person) and all that was collect by his order and his predecessors, like darth plagueis for example, which already accounted with several holocrons and artifacts if I am not wrong.

Right...and then he goes and commences the Great Jedi Purge and gains hundreds of more holocrons and records from the Jedi Temple, plus advanced knowledge of the Force from numerous other worlds under his control during his time as Emperor.

Just because Dooku had a hard-on for Sidious and spoke about him with absolute awe doesn't make his word law.

Of course not, yet dooku's statement was a force aided vision. He looked to sidious using the force and he saw a dark nexus in the force. I think that says something about his attunement in the dark side at this time.

Right...and then he goes and commences the Great Jedi Purge and gains hundreds of more holocrons and records from the Jedi Temple, plus advanced knowledge of the Force from numerous other worlds under his control during his time as Emperor.

Which holocrons? Which worlds? Which dark side knowledge? He already had Revan, Bane, Andeddu's and Plagueis knowledge, as well as a 1 thousand years old order knowledge. At most he could have access to the jedi archives, but any jedi master could have this kind of access. Damn, coleman trebor could had this kind of access, and that doesn't make him more powerful then sidious... Also, if he wanted the jedi knowledge so much, if dooku had free acess to clean a planet from the jedi archives, he could also brought all the knowledge he wanted to his master, don't you think so?

The Dark Empire Sourcebook says that the Emperor gathered "the greatest works of knowledge from a million worlds" and mastered the Force in all its guises.

Yoda is wins. He has been using the force and a lightsaber longer than Vader. Yoda is better in skill as well.

Saber Only- Yoda 10/10
Force Only- Yoda 10/10
All Out- Yoda 10/10

How can Yoda defeat Vader in force only?

pull his helmet off? that should do it.

Why don't SK or anyone that fight Vader do that?

I think once you understand the Dark Side better, you unlock more of your raw potential and thus become more powerful.

Wrong. Sidious states directly that 'Sith gain knowledge from power' as opposed to Jedi who 'gain power from knowledge' in RODV.

i think vader's helmet did come off in his fight with SK, right?