Red, if thats all you want to debate, fine, i can give you that one. But anoon bondara is better than yoda in the exact same scenario you are describing. Kas'im says himself that being good enough with sabers will never make up for his lack of force potential. Mace has obviously shown quite an amazing force propensity that kas'im has never even BEGUN to match.
Originally posted by truejedi
Red, if thats all you want to debate, fine, i can give you that one. But anoon bondara is better than yoda in the exact same scenario you are describing. Kas'im says himself that being good enough with sabers will never make up for his lack of force potential. Mace has obviously shown quite an amazing force propensity that kas'im has never even BEGUN to match.
Except that his Force potency is nowhere near Sidious's, so he is not at Sidious's level in that respect. While he is impressive (rockslide, anyone?) he hasn't got the 'MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD' level of force power that he'd need to outclass someone like Bane or Kas'im.
Originally posted by truejedi
He outclasses Kas'im.Name one force feat by Kas'im. Only one, thats all i'm asking for.
okay. that's what i thought.He outclasses Kas'im.
No. He doesn't. Mace doesn't use it as a weapon (often- his FC against Grievous was an exception- I'll go get the source material tomorrow.) This means that the relevant part of his force mastery is how adept he is at channeling it into speed. He has 'invisible speed' against Kar Vastor- albeit on a world rich in the Dark Side of the Force that he feeds upon. Bane has Blinding speed vs. Sirak, when he was still a neophyte- something like "it took the spectators' brains a minute to catch up'. Kas'im > Neophyte Bane. By a lot. We can thus discern that Kas'im's speed is at least blinding. Mace's mastery isn't enough to UBERLEETZORPWN11111 Kas'im, which is what is necessary against a duelist of his caliber.
wait a minute... hate to bring this up, but weren't you saying just a few minutes ago that Kas'im doesn't bring that much speed to the table so Mace wouldn't be able to use Vapaad that effectively?
Second: Mace uses the force as a weapon on two occasions: Against Grievous, AND against Kor Vastor, twice (hitting him from behind with what amounted to a TK attack the second time)
Twice is plenty of time to ascertain that he can and will use the force to his advantage with an offensive attack. That is exactly how many times we see PT sidious do the same thing. The same amount of times it is shown by Dooku in the PT (3 if you count the new cartoon, which i still haven't seen)
2 times is plenty. Besides which, i agree with gideon when he says we ascertain what characters are capable of, not what they have done in the past.
Mace will be able to match any speed kas'im can reach, because sidous >kas'im , and mace matched his speed, so your posting, calling Ka'sim's speed a "force feat" (which we have NEVER done before) is irrelevant.
Originally posted by truejedi
wait a minute... hate to bring this up, but weren't you saying just a few minutes ago that Kas'im doesn't bring that much speed to the table so Mace wouldn't be able to use Vapaad that effectively?
Originally posted by truejedi
Second: Mace uses the force as a weapon on two occasions: Against Grievous, AND against Kor Vastor, twice (hitting him from behind with what amounted to a TK attack the second time)
The only TK attack I could find was when he doubled his own speed as he flew towards Kar- Hardly a pure TK attack: human missiles are not very applicable to non-Kar Vastor fights.
Originally posted by truejedi
Twice is plenty of time to ascertain that he can and will use the force to his advantage with an offensive attack. That is exactly how many times we see PT sidious do the same thing. The same amount of times it is shown by Dooku in the PT (3 if you count the new cartoon, which i still haven't seen)
Originally posted by truejedi
2 times is plenty. Besides which, i agree with gideon when he says we ascertain what characters are capable of, not what they have done in the past.
Originally posted by truejedi
Mace will be able to match any speed kas'im can reach, because sidous >kas'im , and mace matched his speed, so your posting, calling Ka'sim's speed a "force feat" (which we have NEVER done before) is irrelevant.
Mace relied on Sidious to reach Sidious level speed. Mace =/= Sidious level speed. It only works when he is fighting someone as fast as sidious. Because he is not fighting sidious, he will not be as fast as sidious. Simple as that. That's the entirety of this portion of my point.
I was arguing what gideon just said: that he WOULD be able to match kas'ims speed.
Now, consider this: Kar Vastor > than Mace (by mace's admission, you can debate it if you like, since Mace is fallible)
Kar Vastor was unable to see as mace hit him in the face 4, 5 times before Vastor could blink. That was without ANY mention of a speed burst from his opponent. THAT was when Vapaad is being described as a plant that kills you because you can't see how many arms it has until you are dead.
case in point here: mace is incredibly fast on his own right. Faster than Vastor, (because of vapaad, which vastor, AND kas'im doesn't know) So if he is faster than Vastor, who is greater than Mace in the force, he would be greater than Kas'im as well, who is inargueably below windu in power
(your contention was that he wasn't far enough below him in power to let mace overpower him with just force attacks, i understand that.)
So thats what i've been talking about. The speed that mace shows against vastor should tell you something. Mace is sold short by a lot of people on this forum as having speed ONLY from sidious, but clearly, he had speed at a much higher level (couldn't blink) than vastor, who is greater than mace in the force, and therefore, greater than kas'im.
Finally, mace TK's Vastor when he takes him out with a shield from behind(second force attack).
Originally posted by truejediNo he doesn't.
He outclasses Kas'im.
Name one force feat by Kas'im. Only one, thats all i'm asking for.Completely blocking a telekinetic assault that brought down a building?
okay. that's what i thought.That Mace doesn't outclass Kas'im? Good.
He outclasses Kas'im.No he doesn't.
Originally posted by Faunus
No he doesn't.Completely blocking a telekinetic assault that brought down a building?
That Mace doesn't outclass Kas'im? Good.
No he doesn't.
It says in POD, that even the lowest sith apprentices are taught to block TK attacks. Obviously Kas'im did not completely block the assault, or he wouldn't have died. had the attack been completely "blocked" as you put it. The building WOULD NOT HAVE COLLAPSED. Come on Faunus, this is simply physics, its not hard.
If Kas'im had blocked the ENTIRE force of the TK assault, there would have been no force to strike the building.
Therefore, Kas'im ONLY blocked the part of the attack that was aimed directly at him; which, considering that the rest of it STILL collapsed a temple that Darth Revan couldn't even BREAK INTO (and he couldn't. we can discuss that seperately if you want to) means not very much of that force was going to actually come directly at Kas'im.
besides: blocked a TK attack? that is your list of Kas'im's feats? honestly... I'm not even going into mace's feats. You know them. They outclass Kas'im.
Mace outclasses Kas'im.
Originally posted by truejedi
It says in POD, that even the lowest sith apprentices are taught to block TK attacks. Obviously Kas'im did not completely block the assault, or he wouldn't have died. had the attack been completely "blocked" as you put it. The building WOULD NOT HAVE COLLAPSED. Come on Faunus, this is simply physics, its not hard.If Kas'im had blocked the ENTIRE force of the TK assault, there would have been no force to strike the building.
That's a weak argument. Kas'im blocked the attack that was directed at him. Defense within Lightsaber duels rarely extends to minimizing collateral damage. I'd like you to find one example of a Force attack that was completely nullified by the course of One individual's defense. Yoda reflected Dooku's lightning, and every other instance of a Force attack in the Movies was aimed at an individual. In cases with collateral damage possible, there has never been the capacity to nullify all of the effects of a Force attack.
Originally posted by truejedi
Therefore, Kas'im ONLY blocked the part of the attack that was aimed directly at him; which, considering that the rest of it STILL collapsed a temple that Darth Revan couldn't even BREAK INTO (and he couldn't. we can discuss that seperately if you want to) means not very much of that force was going to actually come directly at Kas'im.
Originally posted by truejedi
besides: blocked a TK attack? that is your list of Kas'im's feats? honestly... I'm not even going into mace's feats. You know them. They outclass Kas'im.
Originally posted by truejedi
Mace outclasses Kas'im.
Originally posted by Red NemesisThat's a weak argument. Kas'im blocked the attack that was directed at him. Defense within Lightsaber duels rarely extends to minimizing collateral damage. I'd like you to find one example of a Force attack that was completely nullified by the course of One individual's defense. Yoda reflected Dooku's lightning, and every other instance of a Force attack in the Movies was aimed at an individual. In cases with collateral damage possible, there has never been the capacity to nullify all of the effects of a Force attack.
By the nature of Force defenses, the rest of the temple wouldn't have been shielded. Kas'im had no motivation to extend his Force Shield past the area needed to protect his body, so he did not. Simple as that. He didn't try to totally negate Bane's attack.
[/B]
i won't lie, i'm not totally sure what you are asking for here, lost me in the phrasing or something. If you could make that more clear, i might give you a better answer.
Obi-wan completely nullified Vader's TK attack, i didn't see the room around them exploding or what-not.
Luke completly tanked Raynar Thul's Force shove in DN.
I think you misunderstand my point or something. You give me one example, beside's Kas'im, where the surroundings get destroyed by a TK force attack aimed at a specific force user. As is the nature of all attacks, spread out over a greater distance, the attack weakens. No, Kas'im had no motivation to block the rest of the attack (well, i take that back, in hindset, i bet he did) but it certainly doesn't prove that he had the ability to do so.
As i said, i'm not sure exactly what kind of example you were asking for, so i just swung a big stick in the general direction.
Blocking a TK attack from possibly the most accomplished TK'er in the mythos is nothing to scoff at. Bane has some of the most powerful showings of TK ever.[/B]
still, blocking a TK attack is now proof of greater force use than EVERYTHING Mace accomplished? Please. I mean, Red, listen to yourself, you left reason behind several posts back. In fact, the very PREMISE of this thread is far from what we consider to be the obvious, that i half believe you are trying to win a thread simply for the sake of winning. Which is a pain, because we've discussed Mace's relative strength SO MANY TIMES. That's why i'm not going into a discussion of Windu's force accomplishments, you know them as well as i do, we would just have the old arguments.
Bane's relative TK showings are impressive, BUT NOT as impressive as many others. Vader, Luke, Yoda, Starkiller, just to name a few names that popped into my head at the very first moment.
Kas'im blocking what was PART of that attack gives him very little prestige. Besides, this is POD bane, not ROT. Do keep that in mind.
Unless you misunderstood, this is MACE WINDU we are talking about here. Not sure if i typoed it the first time. Its not kit fisto, its not AOTC kenobi. Its Mace freaking Windu.
No, he doesn't. [/B]
Mace outclasses Kas'im with the force.
Originally posted by truejedi
i won't lie, i'm not totally sure what you are asking for here, lost me in the phrasing or something. If you could make that more clear, i might give you a better answer.Obi-wan completely nullified Vader's TK attack, i didn't see the room around them exploding or what-not.
Luke completly tanked Raynar Thul's Force shove in DN.I think you misunderstand my point or something. You give me one example, beside's Kas'im, where the surroundings get destroyed by a TK force attack aimed at a specific force user. As is the nature of all attacks, spread out over a greater distance, the attack weakens. No, Kas'im had no motivation to block the rest of the attack (well, i take that back, in hindset, i bet he did) but it certainly doesn't prove that he had the ability to do so.
As i said, i'm not sure exactly what kind of example you were asking for, so i just swung a big stick in the general direction.
I'll admit, I wasn't very clear there. I meant that when a Force attack has an Area of Effect (AoE), it is rarely blocked completely. The target may be able to nullify its effects to them, but it usually effects the area around them. If Luke prevented Raynar Thul's attack from hitting anything else, I'll drop it.
Originally posted by truejedi
still, blocking a TK attack is now proof of greater force use than EVERYTHING Mace accomplished? Please. I mean, Red, listen to yourself, you left reason behind several posts back.
Originally posted by truejedi
In fact, the very PREMISE of this thread is far from what we consider to be the obvious,
Originally posted by truejedi
that i half believe you are trying to win a thread simply for the sake of winning. Which is a pain, because we've discussed Mace's relative strength SO MANY TIMES. That's why i'm not going into a discussion of Windu's force accomplishments, you know them as well as i do, we would just have the old arguments.
Originally posted by truejedi
Bane's relative TK showings are impressive, BUT NOT as impressive as many others. Vader, Luke, Yoda, Starkiller, just to name a few names that popped into my head at the very first moment.
Kas'im blocking what was PART of that attack gives him very little prestige. Besides, this is POD bane, not ROT. Do keep that in mind.
Originally posted by truejedi
Unless you misunderstood, this is MACE WINDU we are talking about here. Not sure if i typoed it the first time. Its not kit fisto, its not AOTC kenobi. Its Mace freaking Windu.
You realize that I made the thread?
I'm hardly likely to forget the combatants. If this is an attempt to hype Mace, as you've already said- we know his relative power.
[/b]
Mace outclasses Kas'im with the force. [/B]
Sidious was X times greater in the force than the trio that he killed. This is the amount needed for a Force Win during an all out fight.
Mace is less than X times greater in the Force than Kas'im. He is not better *enough*.
I'll post a final statement with a synthesis of my stance in about an hour- I've gotta eat lunch.
Originally posted by Red NemesisThat's a weak argument. Kas'im blocked the attack that was directed at him. Defense within Lightsaber duels rarely extends to minimizing collateral damage. I'd like you to find one example of a Force attack that was completely nullified by the course of One individual's defense. Yoda reflected Dooku's lightning, and every other instance of a Force attack in the Movies was aimed at an individual. In cases with collateral damage possible, there has never been the capacity to nullify all of the effects of a Force attack.
By the nature of Force defenses, the rest of the temple wouldn't have been shielded. Kas'im had no motivation to extend his Force Shield past the area needed to protect his body, so he did not. Simple as that. He didn't try to totally negate Bane's attack.
Blocking a TK attack from possibly the most accomplished TK'er in the mythos is nothing to scoff at. Bane has some of the most powerful showings of TK ever.
No, he doesn't. [/B]
Well, Red, let's be fair here: This isn't Bane at the top of his game. He was hurt, drained and lashing out with a very unfocused attack.
Hell, don't forget, in Rule of Two, an UMBARAN SHADOW GUARD is able to block a force wave from Bane.
It does make sense a desperate throw of power from Bane wasn't really the most difficult thing to block
Finally!
I'll post a final statement with a synthesis of my stance in about an hour- I've gotta eat lunch.
Kas'im vs. Mace Windu.
There is no doubt that these are some of the best lightsaber duelists in the saga. Mace Windu created his own form- more deadly than the classical forms, and tailor made to his temperament. Kas'im mastered all seven extant forms of lightsaber combat, and memorized every possible combination of those styles to become not only the Brotherhood's lightsaber instructor, but possibly the deadliest duelist of his era.
Kas'im
Force
Kas'im has an abundance of skill, but his force powers are considered weak. This isn't really fair, as the only role we saw him in was one of a saber instructor. He was able to fully defend himself from a TK attack powerful enough to "shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid." (PoD) This same blast was powerful enough to vaporize the temple around him: "The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone". (PoD) Kas'im's defense against this came after he had been all but defeated by Bane in the first half of their duel- He was far from fresh.
Lightsaber
He was the master of all seven forms. He invented the sequences that many of the Brotherhood- including Darth Bane- used during their lightsaber combat, even with Jedi. There is even some evidence that the 'sequences' outlived him- the description of Darth Zannah's form indicate that Bane taught her sequences. "In the split second it took to roll her wrists and start the intricate, whirling patterns of her blades again, she was vulnerable." (RoT) Kas'im's influence extended past his own lifetime. His technical abilities surpass Mace’s, who has not been confirmed to have mastered all 7 forms.
Combat
As we saw in the second stage of his duel with Bane, Kas’im is an incredibly deadly duelist. His Jar’Kai put Bane off guard, yes, but Kas’im was also much faster than Bane. His mastery over dual-wielding puts him in with the likes of Bondara and Dooku, and his technique may even rival Yoda’s.
There is more to combat, however, than skill. There is power. So far, none of Kas’im’s feats put him on par with Windu- Kas’im has virtually no force feats to speak of. As many like to point out: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. In this case we don’t even have absence of proof. Kas’im was capable of blocking an enraged and desperate Darth Bane’s force wave completely. The concussive force of the portion of the blast that hit him was enough to ‘shatter every bone in his body’, yet his shield was sufficient to protect himself fully. None of Mace Windu’s feats are more powerful than this blast- even his Crush of Grievous’s armor doesn’t compare- the sheer destruction of Darth Bane is beyond Windu’s capabilities. Kas’im would be able to defend himself from any Force attack Mace throws at him.
Kas'im says that 'Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force.' (PoD) Force power is not a guaranteed win, and Mace is not as adept with Force Attacks as Darth Bane- There isn't any proof that Mace could get through Kas'im's defense where Bane could not.
i've been waiting to reply till i get my hands on Dark nest again (maybe this weekend, ) but i can't resist contradicting one itty bitty point before i get back to it (and i will, but it may take awhile, this weekend is going to be crazy. 2 exams and 2 projects due by next wednesday....)
but the point i wanted to contradict:
The concussive force of the portion of the blast that hit him was enough to ‘shatter every bone in his body’, yet his shield was sufficient to protect himself fully. None of Mace Windu’s feats are more powerful than this blast- even his Crush of Grievous’s armor doesn’t compare- the sheer destruction of Darth Bane is beyond Windu’s capabilities
I disagree with this statement very very strongly. Force crushing the armor of grievous is more important than a strike strong enough to crush (and like it or not, crush and pulverize and liquify are essentially the same thing applied to two different elements, titanium or w/e grievous is made out of, and flesh and blood, respectively)
is more impressive than BLOCKING an attack that SOMEONE ELSE used that would destroy flesh. If it were an EQUAL amount of impressive, someone wandering around a battle zone would inflict as much damage on a tank as the tank would on the person if they collided.
That is all for now, sorry i'm being so slow about this one. I just want to make sure my source is correct on the Luke thing.
(tho it still seems to me that, since every instance we see of a force shove, the background doesn't seem to absorb ANY of it, that the burden of proof would actually be on you to show that Bane's attack was the rule other than the exception...)
I disagree with this statement very very strongly. Force crushing the armor of grievous is more important than a strike strong enough to crush (and like it or not, crush and pulverize and liquify are essentially the same thing applied to two different elements, titanium or w/e grievous is made out of, and flesh and blood, respectively)
is more impressive than BLOCKING an attack that SOMEONE ELSE used that would destroy flesh. If it were an EQUAL amount of impressive, someone wandering around a battle zone would inflict as much damage on a tank as the tank would on the person if they collided.
I think you have missed the point of my argument completely. I have never believed that Kas'im is stronger than Mace in the force. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
Kas'im is strong enough to block a blast capable of shattering the temple around him. I don't think that Mace could outdo Bane in TK. The fight hinges on the fact that Mace < PoD Bane. Bane was unable to breech Kas'im's defenses, and Mace will be as well. The important thing is not who is stronger, (That's obviously Mace) but whether Mace could use his superiority to his advantage.
Mace is good with the force. That's not in question. What is in question is if he is good enough to use it competently in this battle- Kas'im has survived a Force attack from Mace's better- there's no reason to believe that Mace's Force superiority will win him this battle.
Originally posted by me
There is more to combat, however, than skill. There is power.
This is a terrible sentence- I wish I had re-read more carefully. Ignore it. My argument is as follows:
"Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force." (Pod)
This is the position I have taken- The above self-quote does not really explain what I meant- which was that Kas'im's power would be enough to defend against Mace. All in all, that was a terrible case of communication. This is why I'm so uptight about grammar- It is actually a channel for me to ensure that my points come out as I had meant. Obviously in this case it didn't work.
Edit: Works -> Work
(Ironically, I misspelled a word- changing its tense- in the same sentence where I bemoaned a mistake in grammar.)