Mace Windu vs. Kas'im

lol, well, then i guess we can skip straight to the chase. I agree with you on everything you just posted, up until a certain point. That point is this: Yes, Mace indeed is not as strong IN THE FORCE as bane. That's fine. I agree that in a duel, mace wouldn't be reaching out and tossing kas'im around like a ragdoll or anything. It would come down to lightsabers.

My argument is this: In POD, there is a quote, BY KAS'IM where he admits that if someone is too strong in the force, all of his superior lightsaber skills won't be enough to help him win. A lightsaber duelist is limited by his ability to use the force. SO my assertation is: Mace is stronger in the force TO THE POINT where it gives him an advantage in lightsaber combat that Kas'im would not be able to overcome. Be it speed, be it precog, be it strength, stamina, what have you.

If you intepreted that POD passage to mean that Kas'im couldn't be helped against a crushing force attack (such as bane's) then yeah, i can see why we aren't agreeing here. But, i'm going with the fact that Windu is superior to the point that Kas'im could not overcome the difference with his lightsaber skills (which, if both were completely stripped of the force would indeed be greater than Mace's)

So in the end it comes down to whether or not Mace can buff himself with the Force to a place that Kas'im can't overcome. I'd say that it is a reasonable position- considering that Vaapad is designed specifically for that very purpose, but I can't agree. At the time of their duel, Bane, who was also buffing himself far more effectively than Kas'im, was simply outclassed. Kas'im's technical ability overcame Bane's Force Valor. I think that He could do the same to Mace.

You don't.

I think that we have passed the point where facts can effectively be applied- this is completely subjective. If anyone can make a point for/against this, feel encouraged. I think I've reached the end of this argument.

well done. lol, did we just have a discussion end without anyone yelling at each other, or calling names. amazing. i didn't think it was possible.

Originally posted by truejedi
well done. lol, did we just have a discussion end without anyone yelling at each other, or calling names. amazing. i didn't think it was possible.

I know. So, I guess we agree to disagree? This is weird. What's the protocol for the end of a debate?

You make good points. I kinda feel like we missed out on part of the experience though- I still haven't been in a flame war. Am I missing much? 🙂

Mace Windu wins. Pretty easily. End of thread. Done.

gosh skywalker, don't know what we would have done without you. All this time wasted. I just wish you had come along earlier. Red, be sure to send him a PM to invite to any thread we feel needs discussing in the future, k?

I get it. He's so much smarter than us that his one sentence and two sentence fragments include our whole debate, pared down to the essentials.

Think of the time we could save!!! He's almost as great a force for efficiency as BOOG- who only surpasses him because of his innate 'hoodness'- Power in 'hoodness' can surpass even the most efficient thread killer!

😄

are we successfully starting a flame war, or what?

Don't forget, Red...we also have to remember Bane's state when he threw out his attack and assume that Kas'im's technical ability is SO far above Mace's all Mace has is the force.

Mace's force wont stand a chance against kas'im's technical ability in my opinion

Originally posted by truejedi
are we successfully starting a flame war, or what?

I think Skywalker has to respond in order to make it a flame war. Otherwise, we are just flaming him- it isn't a war yet. Look- Skywalker is flaming. 😉

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Don't forget, Red...we also have to remember Bane's state when he threw out his attack and assume that Kas'im's technical ability is SO far above Mace's all Mace has is the force.

With all due respect, did you read anything that has happened in this thread?

Kas'im is more skilled, technically with the lightsaber. Mace has amazing force buff abilities. It comes down to whether Kas'im's skill > Mace's Force valor. I think it is. Feel free to refute some of my earlier points, but if I've already made my argument. If you bring some new information or a new interpretation I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what the intent of this post was- what specifically, was it that you hoped to prove?

Originally posted by adventbleach111
Mace's force wont stand a chance against kas'im's technical ability in my opinion

If posts like this keep coming, I might be able to end this debate with an appeal to the majority! [cue evil laugh]
[/deliberate logical fallacy]

yeah, the TRUE question is Anoon Bondara vs. Kas'im. Then you have your best warrior. Screw the chosen one. Bondara could rule the galaxy if he had the want-to.

Originally posted by truejedi
yeah, the TRUE question is Anoon Bondara vs. Kas'im. Then you have your best warrior. Screw the chosen one. Bondara could rule the galaxy if he had the want-to.

WTF? I don't get it.

I freaked out at LS because my first instinct was to debate that point, but then I realized that's what he wanted- for me to argue before I knew what his position was. That trap shouldn't work on me anymore. (Gideon...!!!)

i was laughing at adventbleach1111 for referencing the technical ability of Kas'im, and was pointing out Bondara's supposedly being the orders most technically skilled fighter did him a fat lot of good.

Sarcasm, but not my best.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
[B]I think Skywalker has to respond in order to make it a flame war. Otherwise, we are just flaming him- it isn't a war yet. Look- Skywalker is flaming. 😉

With all due respect, did you read anything that has happened in this thread?

Kas'im is more skilled, technically with the lightsaber. Mace has amazing force buff abilities. It comes down to whether Kas'im's skill > Mace's Force valor. I think it is. Feel free to refute some of my earlier points, but if I've already made my argument. If you bring some new information or a new interpretation I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what the intent of this post was- what specifically, was it that you hoped to prove?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace might very well be close enough to Kas'im to make him fight for his life. That's it

And question; if I delete the PM notices that come through my e-mail before reading the PMs, do the actual PMs in my KMC mailbox get deleted?

Sorry, it seemed my impression from reading RN's posts he was arguing Kas'im would be able to beat Mace.

And...no idea on the latter part.

Originally posted by Faunus
And question; if I delete the PM notices that come through my e-mail before reading the PMs, do the actual PMs in my KMC mailbox get deleted?

Do you mean if you turn off the email notification when you get the PM, then no it doesn't get deleted.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

There is more to combat, however, than skill. There is power. So far, none of Kas’im’s feats put him on par with Windu- Kas’im has virtually no force feats to speak of. [/B]

I've been re-reading PoD and I've found two other Force-kinesis feats for Kas'im which I don't think have been mentioned yet.

"Recognising what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the Force and dived inside."

This happens during 'round 1' of his fight with Bane in which Bane has him completely on the retreat.

"Kas'im responded by using the Force to knock Bane backwards, sending him tumbling down the great stone staircase."

True, Bane was "balanced precariously on the precipice of the uppermost stair" and exhausted from 'round 2' of the fight (when Kas'im switched to using two separate blades and was overwhelming him), but I still felt it was worth mentioning for completeness sake.

I'm probably late as hell posting this, but I'd reckon that Kas'im can probably cancel out Mace's advantages in apure force fight. Think about it for a second- he summoned force shields of enough potency to shield himself completely from the effects of a massively powerful force wave utilized by an enraged, desperate Sith with raw power and dark side mastery that likely sutpasses Windu's own. Mace Windu's force attacks operate in the same way- overpowering, damaging TK like used in the Battle of Dantooine and the force crush used against Grievous.

Other than that, I'd say Mace Windu takes the lightsaber duel. It was proven many, many times that force prowess > extensive skill- Kas'im most definetly has the advantage in the 'skill category', due to his vast mastery of virtually every lightsaber form at his time. On the other hand, Mace Windu's creation of Vaapad- which requires mastery of multiple forms and the 'upgrading' of an already existing, extremely difficult to master lightsaber form- proves that he is no slouch in the skill category. He is also a far more specialized and deadly fighter than Kas'im is- faster, more intense, physically stronger. Shatterpoint and Vaapad will also, of course, come into play- they will negate any physical advantage Kas'im has, and will make sure that unless Kas'im can quickly dispatch Mace (he can't), Mace will find a flaw in Kas'im's bladework.

So, all in all, I'd say Mace wins.