Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah im aware of that but why make a big deal about discussing something you can't prove? Really im not saying you shouldn't discuss it but since God is infinite and eternal you can't prove for sure that god exists.
Its still a wonderfully fascinating thing to debate- the irony is. Even you seem to enjoy the debate,...
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Its still a wonderfully fascinating thing to debate- the irony is. Even you seem to enjoy the debate,...
Well I think it depends on how you debate it....as long as your not expecting to get anything really concrete from it. *shrug*
Im not sure if its fascinating, I think it can be a waste of time. I love how people always seems to assume that God is always trying to help 'good' people and doesn't assist evil people.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well I think it depends on how you debate it....as long as your not expecting to get anything really concrete from it. *shrug*Im not sure if its fascinating, I think it can be a waste of time. I love how people always seems to assume that God is always trying to help 'good' people and doesn't assist evil people.
Hmm, I don't get your last sentence- is that an attempt to stir up a discussion on the "Something good happens God did it, something bad happens God had nothing to do with it" theme?
Originally posted by Bardock42
I prefer discussing the shortcomings the belief in either causes over whether it actually is truth.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Hmm, I don't get your last sentence- is that an attempt to stir up a discussion on the "Something good happens God did it, something bad happens God had nothing to do with it" theme?
LOL actually im a bit tired im not sure what im doing. for some reason I was thinking of the heroes series. They seem to imply that God is on the side of good people and not evil....not sure how this is even relevant to the thread sorry. 😂
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There's no way you're that naive.
Nah. I realize everyone has an agenda. But if they were trying to be jerks about it, they could say a lot of different things. As it is, that's about the tamest thing I could think of that still promotes atheism. The God billboards all over the country are far worse, for example, and no one complains about them.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Actually, I love the signs- I think its great that the "God Debate" is now being taken to a new level. However, I can't see where in the article you are getting this "atheists can't have morals" thing from...What the author is saying is that A) Bendy Buses are the worst thing to hit london since the congestion chareg and B) the atheist message should be stronger.
Fair enough. Though it sounded like you endorsed the article when you called the buses "the worst campaign in history" and then posted the article.
The author says far more than those two things, though. Your interpretation of his points is generous to him, to say the least. It's an awful critique that basically says that atheists, and their propaganda, should conform to what he imagines them to be...which is an amalgamation of various common stereotypes associated with atheism, few of them with lasting merit.
I got the overriding feeling that if he were re-writing the message, it would say something akin to "God isn't real, and religion is a tool of the weak!" Certainly better fodder for a hack writer, though not in touch with reality.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nah. I realize everyone has an agenda. But if they were trying to be jerks about it, they could say a lot of different things. As it is, that's about the tamest thing I could think of that still promotes atheism. The God billboards all over the country are far worse, for example, and no one complains about them.
The people who put those up typically do think that on one level or another their actions are helping people to be comforted. Atheists don't.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The people who put those up typically do think that on one level or another their actions are helping people to be comforted. Atheists don't.
😬 at the blanket stereotype. Yes, I'd argue, they believe they are doing good by spreading their message. And it's in a very non-overt manner, since, as the article suggests, it could be much more shocking in its message.
Do you really think that the only reason they'd do it would be to create controversy or make theists upset? Seems a shoddy reason to market a wide-scale advertisement. And falls completely flat when you realize that if those were their goals, the message on the buses would be far different.
Jesus has plenty of well-meaning adverts. Atheists are allowed the same. If nothing else, it raises awareness without being derogatory, which is a good thing.
I do agree that God equally does not exist as existing.
However, do things like apatheism, agnosticism, etc...fall under atheism? I guess I had this notion that they were separate and atheism is a pure set of "beliefs": God or any of its incarnates, do not exist.
Could someone clear that up for me.
Also, is there some sort of Chart out there that is similar to that Christianity chart that starts with Catholicism and shows all the other religions? If atheism is at the top and then all others fall underndeath it, it'd be nice to see that.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
😬 at the blanket stereotype. Yes, I'd argue, they believe they are doing good by spreading their message. And it's in a very non-overt manner, since, as the article suggests, it could be much more shocking in its message.
Plastering a message on the side of a bus isn't overt enough for you?
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Do you really think that the only reason they'd do it would be to create controversy or make theists upset?
Frankly, yes. There's nothing else that a rationalist could hope to produce with those signs.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Seems a shoddy reason to market a wide-scale advertisement. And falls completely flat when you realize that if those were their goals, the message on the buses would be far different.
And less defensible if anyone called them on it.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Jesus has plenty of well-meaning adverts. Atheists are allowed the same. If nothing else, it raises awareness without being derogatory, which is a good thing.
Awareness of what? That atheists exist? That they can be just as evangelical as theists? That atheists consider religion to be a bad thing?
It hurts the "cause" of atheism more than it raises any sort of awareness.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I do agree that God equally does not exist as existing.However, do things like apatheism, agnosticism, etc...fall under atheism? I guess I had this notion that they were separate and atheism is a pure set of "beliefs": God or any of its incarnates, do not exist.
Could someone clear that up for me.
[QUOTE=11214671]Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]Also, is there some sort of Chart out there that is similar to that Christianity chart that starts with Catholicism and shows all the other religions? If atheism is at the top and then all others fall underndeath it, it'd be nice to see that.
I know of something about "strong" vs "weak" atheism with only "God doesn't exist and you'll burn in hell if you disagree" being truly strong, with agnosticism being the weakest and everyone else falling in the middle. Ignosticism and apatheism fall outside classification as neither truly addresses God, both boiling down to "ya'll are idiots".
Raising awareness and spreading their message doesn't make atheists "religious." Evangelization isn't inherent to religion.
And no, Sym, I think it could be a lot more offensive. I don't think think the message they used is at all offensive, to anyone of any religion, unless they're looking to pick a fight. If they wanted to offend, to upset, etc. they would have used a far different message.'
And when I used the term "non-overt" I purposely stated that the alternative would be a more-overt shocking message. You ignored that part when you asked "what's more overt than a bus sign?" I don't disagree that advertising is an overt display of a doctrine. But why bemoan it for atheists when just as obvious (and frankly less socially tactful) Christian adverts are literally everywhere. Atheism deserves the same treatment: namely, tolerance and acceptance.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
To be quite honest it could, but to be quite frank its not hard to offend religous fundamentalists. They probably find that sign offence as well.
True, but we can't help their reactions to simple propaganda. Like I said, if the intent was to offend, the message on the buses would be far different.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I know of something about "strong" vs "weak" atheism with only "God doesn't exist and you'll burn in hell if you disagree" being truly strong, with agnosticism being the weakest and everyone else falling in the middle. Ignosticism and apatheism fall outside classification as neither truly addresses God, both boiling down to "ya'll are idiots".
Actually that post demonstrates you know nothing of strong vs. weak atheism. Weak atheism is nothing like agnosticism, nor is strong atheism a more fundamentalist position.
The only difference is this. Weak atheists say there is no God as it is ridiculous to belief in such a construct that there is no evidence for.
Strong atheists say there is no God because the evidence actively shows he does not xist.
That's all. It's all down to "I do not believe there is a God" vs. "I actively believe there is no God" (although 'believe' is a poor word to use with atheist views).
Agnosticism is nothing like either. Agnosticism is, at base, uncommitted. 'Weak' atheism is every bit as committed as 'strong', just for a different reason.
Your idea that the onbly reason to put the signs up is to upset theists is arrant nonsense, and nothing to do with 'rationalists' or any such thing, another label I suspect you use entirely incorrectly. It is being done to counter religious adverts that have been put up in the same way; the propogation of atheist belief is in the idea that it is in people's best interests, just as with religious beliefs.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Actually that post demonstrates you know nothing of strong vs. weak atheism.
As evidenced by my phrasing I didn't claim any sort deep knowledge and I certainly don't appreciate being attacked for something so irrelevant.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Your idea that the onbly reason to put the signs up is to upset theists is arrant nonsense, and nothing to do with 'rationalists' or any such thing
No person who is thinking rationally about the signs can possibly think they will do anything but upset theists.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Raising awareness and spreading their message doesn't make atheists "religious." Evangelization isn't inherent to religion.
I know. And it's just as sickening when atheists do it. Except that most of them claim to be thinking about what they're doing.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
And no, Sym, I think it could be a lot more offensive. I don't think think the message they used is at all offensive, to anyone of any religion, unless they're looking to pick a fight. If they wanted to offend, to upset, etc. they would have used a far different message.'
How is picking a phrase that says "you're wrong and unhappy and my way is better" not picking a fight? You have a clear bias in this discussion if you really don't think that the person who made those signs was both intelligent and not trying to offend people.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
And when I used the term "non-overt" I purposely stated that the alternative would be a more-overt shocking message. You ignored that part when you asked "what's more overt than a bus sign?" I don't disagree that advertising is an overt display of a doctrine.
My mistake. Sorry.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
But why bemoan it for atheists when just as obvious (and frankly less socially tactful) Christian adverts are literally everywhere. Atheism deserves the same treatment: namely, tolerance and acceptance.
And getting torn apart when they're dogmatic evangelists. The Christian adverts have plenty of social tact considering most people in the places where they are identify as Christian already, not that I don't find the signs just as bad I just recognize that there are people who will see "Jesus Loves You" and be comforted but no one who sees "God Doesn't Exist. So Stop Worrying" and feel the same.