The Completely Revamped Wonder Woman Respect Thread!!!

If I remember right, one of Diana's patron deities is a hunter goddess. Insofar as hunting requires stealth, it makes sense Diana could magically sneak up on anyone she wants.

Beyond that, when you're dealing with someone whose perceptions are so messed up that he sees a seven foot tall monster with spikes when he's looking at a shapely 160 pound woman, there's no cause to say WHAT he's hearing, let alone whether such would make a difference or not.

Either way, Q99's point holds, Greg Rucka himself said Superman gave Diana absolutely everything he had in that encounter, yet she survived, and moved on from it.

It's a moot point, besides. Most fans are not aware of this, but Rucka was actually employing an altered re-telling of Justice League of America #207. There, Superman fought against Wonder Woman's equal AMAZONIAN counterpart, pre-Crisis Earth-3 Superwoman. Who cleanly knocked him out.

Examine the following. You'll have to TRY to miss the similarities between this encounter and that of Wonder Woman 219.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2z8vlns.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If I remember right, one of Diana's patron deities is a hunter goddess. Insofar as hunting requires stealth, it makes sense Diana could magically sneak up on anyone she wants.

Beyond that, when you're dealing with someone whose perceptions are so messed up that he sees a seven foot tall monster with spikes when he's looking at a shapely 160 pound woman, there's no cause to say WHAT he's hearing, let alone whether such would make a difference or not.

Either way, Q99's point holds, Greg Rucka himself said Superman gave Diana absolutely everything he had in that encounter, yet she survived, and moved on from it.

It's a moot point, besides. Most fans are not aware of this, but Rucka was actually employing an altered re-telling of Justice League of America #207. There, Superman fought against Wonder Woman's equal AMAZONIAN counterpart, pre-Crisis Earth-3 Superwoman. Who cleanly knocked him out.

Examine the following. You'll have to TRY to miss the similarities between this encounter and that of Wonder Woman 219.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2z8vlns.jpg

so she used magical, undetectable stealth powers?

so then because we don't know, he was at a disadvantage.

rucka would be wrong, then. if superman had given everything he could, he would have been the calm, collected man that tore through imperiex probes or spanked the elite.

those are some interesting parallels.

Pr,

When I have the time, I'll see if I can't find Rucka's interview and post it for you.

But I can already see the problem.

You're trying to equate "Superman gave everything he could" or even "Superman was holding nothing back in that fight" with "Superman was the most perfect fighter he could have possibly been -- ever! THAT's what we saw in Sacrifice!".

That's NOT what people mean when they say "Superman gave everything" in that WW 219 encounter. They mean instead that Superman was putting forth maximum physical effort, with lethal intent, no physical restraint, no relenting, no retreating, no mercy. THAT is what Rucka portrays when he and Diana finally show down.

Kurt Busiek's Trinity #13 hero is more the kind of Superman YOU'RE trying to describe.

Happy Holiday, people!

(Image source: DC Super Friends #6
Writer: Sholly Fisch)

Originally posted by -Pr-
seeing her as doomsday, being mad with rage so that he wasn't thinking clearly.

and his hearing obviously wasn't working if she could sneak up on him.

His hearing was explicitly on at the time- which is why slamming his ears hurt so much. She was hiding nearby, and then the moment he focused on his sense powers, WHAM. Straitforward and painful. She wasn't hiding from his full abilities, so much as waiting right by him (with, yes, her magic-powered stealth skills) for him to use them and turn that to her edge.

if superman had given everything he could, he would have been the calm, collected man that tore through imperiex probes or spanked the elite.

He did most of the stuff he did in those fights against her- used speed, strength, and his ranged abilities all at the same time, using his powers in combination and at full force. Diana was able to defend against it where the Elite or the probes weren't. Plus what bluewaterrider said.

Btw, a respect thread is not the place for this. Criticizing a character goes elsewhere.

the imperex probes wasnt impressive if you ask me. Black lightning took out one along with aquaman.

Originally posted by carver9
the imperex probes wasnt impressive if you ask me. Black lightning took out one along with aquaman.

Black Lightining alone? No. Aquaman on his own, unamped, without artefacts? Surviving? No. Get your facts right, it was impressive. The probes are probably mid till high herald level, if not higher.

Aquaman did survive, but yes he had artifacts to do what he did.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr,

When I have the time, I'll see if I can't find Rucka's interview and post it for you.

But I can already see the problem.

You're trying to equate "Superman gave everything he could" or even "Superman was holding nothing back in that fight" with "Superman was the most perfect fighter he could have possibly been -- ever! THAT's what we saw in Sacrifice!".

That's NOT what people mean when they say "Superman gave everything" in that WW 219 encounter. They mean instead that Superman was putting forth maximum physical effort, with lethal intent, no physical restraint, no relenting, no retreating, no mercy. THAT is what Rucka portrays when he and Diana finally show down.

Kurt Busiek's Trinity #13 hero is more the kind of Superman YOU'RE trying to describe.

the problem is that not everyone sees it the way you do.

Originally posted by Q99
His hearing was explicitly on at the time- which is why slamming his ears hurt so much. She was hiding nearby, and then the moment he focused on his sense powers, WHAM. Straitforward and painful. She wasn't hiding from his full abilities, so much as waiting right by him (with, yes, her magic-powered stealth skills) for him to use them and turn that to her edge.

He did most of the stuff he did in those fights against her- used speed, strength, and his ranged abilities all at the same time, using his powers in combination and at full force. Diana was able to defend against it where the Elite or the probes weren't. Plus what bluewaterrider said.

Btw, a respect thread is not the place for this. Criticizing a character goes elsewhere.

i didn't criticise her.

Hey, P.R.

I see "ROI" for your country of origin.
"Republic of India", I presume?

I can't speak for how phrasing is used there, or even in Great Britain, as I'm from America, but I know there are some subtle differences in language usage between our 2 countries.

For Americans, and American comic writers, Greg Rucka at least, "giving everything" refers to intensity of physical effort. It does not refer to strategizing and being absolutely the best fighter one can be. It does not, in other words, refer to "fighting smart", which is what you're trying to hold Q99 to. Rucka himself makes it clear this is not the sense in which he is using the phrasing.

Here, you can prove it to yourself -- I found a still-functioning link to the Newsarama interview where Rucka explains the WW 219 "Sacrifice" fight:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?threadid=39183

Hey again, P.R.

I've been seeing a lot of Internet information loss.
I don't imagine even that interview will be spared indefinitely; I already see the image links that go with it are broken.

So I'll quote the first of the 2 most relevant portions directly, to preserve it on this website for backup:

“We now have a situation where Kal has no reason to hold back at all – EVERY governor is off. He’s going to kill Doomsday, period.

Diana doesn’t want to kill Kal, though – that’s the last thing she wants to do, because Kal is not the problem. The problem is in Max, and she has to stop Max, one way or another. So, the fight is between two opponents who are at very cross purposes – Kal is hitting her with everything he has, and Diana has to do everything she can do to survive that, and move on from that, and get to Max. It’s a pretty grueling fight.”

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?threadid=39183

Here's the 2nd relevant point of Rucka's interview, P.R.

As I said before, Rucka makes a clear distinction between what HE means by "giving everything" and what you're trying to say:

" [Diana] never hits the same emotional level Kal is at in the fight, which is what helps to save her – Superman’s coming at her half out of his mind. He’s not fighting smart. She has to be smart all the way through it, and she’s Diana, so it’s very hard to make her lose her composure – which can be taken as something that’s good for Max…or bad.”

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?threadid=39183

Republic of India....... 😂..

Ah, good stuff.

Looking forward to Wondies beatdown of Powergirl.

Pr, keep up the argument, it's generating comedic gold.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hey, P.R.

I see "ROI" for your country of origin.
"Republic of India", I presume?

I can't speak for how phrasing is used there, or even in Great Britain, as I'm from America, but I know there are some subtle differences in language usage between our 2 countries.

For Americans, and American comic writers, Greg Rucka at least, "giving everything" refers to intensity of physical effort. It does not refer to strategizing and being absolutely the best fighter one can be. It does not, in other words, refer to "fighting smart", which is what you're trying to hold Q99 to. Rucka himself makes it clear this is not the sense in which he is using the phrasing.

Here, you can prove it to yourself -- I found a still-functioning link to the Newsarama interview where Rucka explains the WW 219 "Sacrifice" fight:

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?threadid=39183

Ireland. and yes, english is our first language.

you're making my point for me, though. ever since that issue came out, i've been arguing on the side of those who believe that superman wasn't fighting smart, hence wasn't at his most effective in a fight.

this is the problem people seem to have.

they see that superman was being the best superman can be. i don't. i'm on rucka's side with this.

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/Wonder%20Woman%20Feats/LassoReversesGeneticTransformation.jpg

Pretty cool feat here. The Lasso is obviously capable of reversing the effects of mind control/hypnotism by showing the target the truth of their actions and whatnot, but here the Lasso is shown returning the workers of a local STAR labs facility make to their normal human forms after Queen Bee turned them into human/bee hybrids.

Martian Mind.

"Republic of India" is actually India's official name.
The other choice would have been "Le Roi", a school in Calgary, Alberta Canada, but I thought the convention here was to go by country name, so I dismissed that one.

PR. I have no problem in making your point for you. You helped me out earlier on my other thread a few weeks ago; I generally consider you an ally. I agree -- Diana did not fight an abnormally effective Superman in Sacrifice. But she did fight the most powerful version of our Kal-el that I've seen go against another hero in more than 5 years.

I was cheered to see that, even as I'm cheered to see Wondy's creative staff quietly making her a greater physical force in her current title.

For an example, examine this unexpected demonstration of Diana's strength and toughness from last month's Wonder Woman #40

(Part 1 of 2)

Demo of strength and toughness.

Unintended.

Part 2 of 2.

(Wonder Woman #40, written by Gail Simone, drawn by Aaron Lopresti.)

Actually, since I have an extra minute or two, let me throw in this bonus shot...

Source: Wonder Woman #40
Writer: Gail Simone
Penciller: Aaron Lopresti

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Martian Mind.

"Republic of India" is actually India's official name.
The other choice would have been "Le Roi", a school in Calgary, Alberta Canada, but I thought the convention here was to go by country name, so I dismissed that one.

PR. I have no problem in making your point for you. You helped me out earlier on my other thread a few weeks ago; I generally consider you an ally. I agree -- Diana did not fight an abnormally effective Superman in Sacrifice. But she did fight the most powerful version of our Kal-el that I've seen go against another hero in more than 5 years.

I was cheered to see that, even as I'm cheered to see Wondy's creative staff quietly making her a greater physical force in her current title.

For an example, examine this unexpected demonstration of Diana's strength and toughness from last month's Wonder Woman #40

(Part 1 of 2)

powerful? sure. efficient? being the best he can be? no, which is what i have issue with, when people say that it is.

btw, has it been announced whether simone is leaving wonder woman due to writing birds of prey again? or is she sticking around to write both books? as much as i love her work, her wonder woman underwhelmed me, so i wouldn't exactly mind seeing someone else have a crack at it...

Superman #118