The CIS+the Jedi Order(PT era) vs. the Vong

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Canon>your opinion.

Your's as well if you want to play that game. You cannot pick and chose quotes like that. Use them all or none at all.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
T-Canon states that the clones were outnumbered a hundred to one. THAT IS ABOVE KAREN TRAVISS SO SHUT UP ABOUT THAT FIGURE!

And logical deduction shows that there is no way that either figure provided is correct. I have already established more reasonable estimates for the size of the Clone Army.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Now considering the fact that the Vong was scared shitless...shitless, by Thrawn's Imperial remnant which was like one percent of the total Imperial fleet.

The Vong were never scared of the Remnant. They only feared the Empire at it's peak.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Galaxy had quadrillions of SPECIES. How the hell do you figure the droid army outnumbers the Galaxy's inhabitants, may I remind you colonies and worlds with a million people would not be represented in the Senate.

Where exactly did you come up with that figure. The death toll of the Yuuzhan Vong war, which was described in TUF as the most devastating war the galaxy had ever seen, was 365 trillion. The population of the galaxy is just as large as you seem to think.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Your stubbornness is so infuriating, the Vong can't touch the CIS's numbers, combined with the Jedi Order and Grievous as strategists the Vong will most likely lose here.

The Vong will never have to engage the CIS in a ground battle as BDZ is easy for them. Space battle is what it comes down to and the Vong trump the CIS easily there.

Really? Jedi have lead boarding parties before, they could be useful in ceasing Vong ships. And the Droids outnumber the Vong by a ridiculous margin

Address my arguments point by point please.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Your's as well if you want to play that game. You cannot pick and chose quotes like that. Use them all or none at all.

I'm not, Traviss is a C-Canon source, there are two C-Canon sources that state that the CIS had quintillions of droids. Dooku's statements that there they outnumber the Republic a hundred to one is T-Canon, only below the movies themselves which is why the very fabric of the Clone Wars timeline is being re-written by the Clone Wars saga. So 2 C-canon sources+T-Canon quote> 1 C-Canon quote from the killer of canon Karen Traviss

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
And logical deduction shows that there is no way that either figure provided is correct. I have already established more reasonable estimates for the size of the Clone Army.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Vong were never scared of the Remnant. They only feared the Empire at it's peak.

I thought Nor Anor feared attacking the Empire even after the Emperor's third death

Where exactly did you come up with that figure. The death toll of the Yuuzhan Vong war, which was described in TUF as the most devastating war the galaxy had ever seen, was 365 trillion. The population of the galaxy is just as large as you seem to think.

The Vong will never have to engage the CIS in a ground battle as BDZ is easy for them. Space battle is what it comes down to and the Vong trump the CIS easily there.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'm not, Traviss is a C-Canon source, there are two C-Canon sources that state that the CIS had quintillions of droids. Dooku's statements that there they outnumber the Republic a hundred to one is T-Canon, only below the movies themselves which is why the very fabric of the Clone Wars timeline is being re-written by the Clone Wars saga. So 2 C-canon sources+T-Canon quote> 1 C-Canon quote from the killer of canon Karen Traviss

But the number is just as ridiculous as the 3 million clones claim. We can't pick and chose quotes. Both need to be disregarded. The authors we can say were wrong and the statements from GG and Dooku can be seen as exaggerated for use as propaganda.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You realize that the population of Coruscant alone is more than that of your suggested figures of the clone army, thats like the entire US army in a WWII situation being the size of Washington, can't happen

In Star Wars it seems to be pretty regular. Plus, Coruscant is WAY different from most of the galaxy. Many planets seem to be far less populated than Earth is.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I thought Nor Anor feared attacking the Empire even after the Emperor's third death

I don't think thats true. Even still, the Empire was still extremely powerful.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is true I misread a source

So how can there be quintillion's of droids? Do they outnumber the rest of the galaxy?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
How? The CIS still outnumber them by a vast number

On the ground I'm sure the CIS would have a much better shot. They might even win. But in space the battle is very far in the Vong's favor. There average warships outpower the Venator's at least nine to one. Possibly even more. Like I have said, the Vong effectively fought basically every goverment in the galaxy at that time. The New Republic, the Remnant, the Chiss, the Yevetha, the Hapans, ect. They were ridiculously capable in space and are more than wiling to BDZ any planet so they don't have to do a ground engagement.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think thats true. Even still, the Empire was still extremely powerful.

It is very much true. After Palpatine's final death in Empire's End, Nom Anor continued to manipulate the Interim Ruling Council and self-styled emperor Xandel Carvius into destroying the remaining Imperial infrastructure on warlordism.

And even after that, the Vong waited many more years to attack.

Originally posted by Gideon
It is very much true. After Palpatine's final death in Empire's End, Nom Anor continued to manipulate the Interim Ruling Council and self-styled emperor Xandel Carvius into destroying the remaining Imperial infrastructure on warlordism.

And even after that, the Vong waited many more years to attack.

Ummm....Carvius was emperor for all of a few hours.

Does this necessarily say that were still afraid of the Empire? No. It just wasn't an opportune time to strike, probably, as there were two especially powerful factions instead of just one like there would be later. Plus, add that they just saw the Empire's Galaxy Gun, Eclipse Star Ships, World Devastators, and the Sun Crusher. Probably wanted to wait and make sure there wasn't plenty more such weapons laying around.

And, even though the Imperial Fleet was destroyed, they still had the massive production capacity. It took just a short time for the Empire to build the World Devastators, two Eclipse Ships, and the Galaxy Gun, which, with the help of the New Republic and remaining Imperial Force, could have effectively wiped out the Vong, or any other group.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ummm....Carvius was emperor for all of a few hours.

Ummmm... he had been under Anor's influence for longer than "just a few hours."

Does this necessarily say that were still afraid of the Empire? No.

Yes.

It just wasn't an opportune time to strike, probably, as there were two especially powerful factions instead of just one like there would be later. Plus, add that they just saw the Empire's Galaxy Gun, Eclipse Star Ships, World Devastators, and the Sun Crusher. Probably wanted to wait and make sure there wasn't plenty more such weapons laying around.

Don't try to use Sithian or Palpatinian logic to rationalize why the Vong didn't strike. They're warriors first, pragmatists a distant, distant second. If they thought they could have defeated the Empire on an even footing, they would have. They didn't. They couldn't.

And, even though the Imperial Fleet was destroyed, they still had the massive production capacity. It took just a short time for the Empire to build the World Devastators, two Eclipse Ships, and the Galaxy Gun, which, with the help of the New Republic and remaining Imperial Force, could have effectively wiped out the Vong, or any other group.

Great.

Anyways, back to the military issue, all evidence points to the fact that if the Vong could have taken out the Empire, they would have. They didn't. They couldn't.

Originally posted by Gideon
Ummmm... he had been under Anor's influence for longer than "just a few hours."

He was Emperor for only a few hours though.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes.

How so?

Originally posted by Gideon
Don't try to use Sithian or Palpatinian logic to rationalize why the Vong didn't strike. They're warriors first, pragmatists a distant, distant second. If they thought they could have defeated the Empire on an even footing, they would have. They didn't. They couldn't.

They weren't going to be fighting the Empire. They would be fighting the galaxy, and they knew that.

Originally posted by Gideon
Great.

Anyways, back to the military issue, all evidence points to the fact that if the Vong could have taken out the Empire, they would have. They didn't. They couldn't.

The military industry is a huge military issue. The Empire was able to make huge superweapons as well as still having the ability to field a massive fleet.

Come on, Gideon, your better than this.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
He was Emperor for only a few hours though.

How so?

They were scared shitless of the Empire, period, this was after palps third death, and the New Republic being in a state of confusion. The Vong scared of the prospect of attacking a fragmented Empire.

They weren't going to be fighting the Empire. They would be fighting the galaxy, and they knew that.

The military industry is a huge military issue. The Empire was able to make huge superweapons as well as still having the ability to field a massive fleet.

Come on, Gideon, your better than this.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Does it matter, he was high enough in the Imperial hierarchy to be considered for Emperor, so obviously he had access

They only elected him because everyone hated him and they wanted him killed. It wasn't like he did anything.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
They were scared shitless of the Empire, period, this was after palps third death, and the New Republic being in a state of confusion. The Vong scared of the prospect of attacking a fragmented Empire.

Scared shitless of the Remnant? Oh really? Can I see your exact source for this? Can you prove being "scared" of the Empire was the reason they chose not to invade the galaxy at large?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What the CIS will have control of the Galaxy in this situation.

The Empire controlled far less than the entire galaxy. The Vong wouldn't have been just fighting them. Like I have said, there are plenty of other huge governments that need to be taken down.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And the CIS cannot? *points at the Malevolence*

The Malevolence is nothing next to what the Empire had. Add to that the fact that it's superweapon, the ion cannons, won't even affect the Vong's as they don't use mechanical technology.

The military industry that the Empire still had is enormous. In theory they could have popped out a Galaxy Gun, several from Sovereign Star Dreadnoughts(15km long, possessing a superlaser), at least one Eclipse Star Dreadnought, plus countless more ships in only a few months. They lost their fleet at Byss, but not the ability to build a fleet.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He won't need to because your arguments continue to fail 😮‍💨

They only elected him because everyone hated him and they wanted him killed. It wasn't like he did anything.

Scared shitless of the Remnant? Oh really? Can I see your exact source for this? Can you prove being "scared" of the Empire was the reason they chose not to invade the galaxy at large?

The Empire controlled far less than the entire galaxy. The Vong wouldn't have been just fighting them. Like I have said, there are plenty of other huge governments that need to be taken down.

The Malevolence is nothing next to what the Empire had. Add to that the fact that it's superweapon, the ion cannons, won't even affect the Vong's as they don't use mechanical technology.

The military industry that the Empire still had is enormous. In theory they could have popped out a Galaxy Gun, several from Sovereign Star Dreadnoughts(15km long, possessing a superlaser), at least one Eclipse Star Dreadnought, plus countless more ships in only a few months. They lost their fleet at Byss, but not the ability to build a fleet.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They only elected him because everyone hated him and they wanted him killed. It wasn't like he did anything.

This is not at all relevant to the actual point, Glentract. To quote the official databank's profile of Nom Anor:

"Anor worked both as a subtle manipulator and a political firebrand, disrupting the politics of local systems and stirring up trouble for the New Republic and the new Jedi order. Anor pulled the strings behind Xandel Carivus, a key member of the Imperial Interim Council that replaced the Empire after the death of Palpatine's clone. His behind-the-scenes actions helped hasten the eventual downfall of the fragmented Empire."

That Carivus was emperor for only a short time is as relevant as your quoted statement; Anor was one of the parties responsible for the destruction of the Empire.

Scared shitless of the Remnant? Oh really? Can I see your exact source for this? Can you prove being "scared" of the Empire was the reason they chose not to invade the galaxy at large?

This is a ridiculous contention.

First, the Vong culture has been established as warriors. As Admiral Ackbar succinctly noted, they are appallingly arrogant, peerlessly ferocious, characteristically proud, and rule and direct through brute force. Why would Anor be sent to disrupt the Empire if the Vong weren't frightened of them? You apply Sithian principles -- deception, misdirection, surprise, manipulation -- to conventional Vong logic and it doesn't work. Period.

Second, where is your source that says that the Vong were "frightened" of a decentralized and virtually nonmilitant galaxy? As you boasted quite nicely, the Vong managed to hold their own against the New Republic and the remnant of the Empire. Give me cited sources of rebellions and rebel efforts to subvert Vong control from planetary populations. And then I want you to reconcile your absurd theory with the fact that the Vong managed to capture Coruscant, the most heavily defended planet in the entire galaxy, and drive Gilad Pellaeon from Bastion and tell me why they would fear the rest.

The Empire controlled far less than the entire galaxy.

During what time?

The Vong wouldn't have been just fighting them. Like I have said, there are plenty of other huge governments that need to be taken down.

And yet Anor focused on the Empire. Wonder why.

The military industry that the Empire still had is enormous. In theory they could have popped out a Galaxy Gun, several from Sovereign Star Dreadnoughts(15km long, possessing a superlaser), at least one Eclipse Star Dreadnought, plus countless more ships in only a few months. They lost their fleet at Byss, but not the ability to build a fleet.

That's not the point at all. Military industry is directly related to military functioning as a whole. Why you bring this up at all remains a mystery.

the leader of the Vong didn't seem to have a warrior's logic though. Onimi? that guy was a strategist. Not disagreeing with the point in general, just want to point out that the Vong couldn't always be counted on to have a hammer's mentality, because the driving mind behind the invasion didn't have that mentality.

Originally posted by truejedi
the leader of the Vong didn't seem to have a warrior's logic though. Onimi? that guy was a strategist. Not disagreeing with the point in general, just want to point out that the Vong couldn't always be counted on to have a hammer's mentality, because the driving mind behind the invasion didn't have that mentality.

Remember that Onimi had to work within the bounds of society- you can't make a microwave get online, and you can't make a warrior society strike with as much cunning as the sith. It can be shaped by his conniving mind, but he has to maintain credibility. Imagine if a gangsta got on a star wars forum... he'd get laughed out of the hood and off the message boards.

hey, don't bring BOOG into this!

Gideon, I didn't understand the wording of your argument. Half the time it seems like it's supporting what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I see, so they hated someone so badly they made him emperor makes a hella sense 🙄

I see you're a little ignorant about the storyline. They made him emperor because they knew he would get assassinated.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Even after the Emperor died three times, two Death Stars had been destroyed, a Galaxy Gun, two Eclipses and several Sovereigns had been annihilated, and the Imperial chain of Command had been shattered, they still didn't attack. Gideon has sourced this multiple times in previous and this argument refer back to them if you must.

Yet the Empire had the ability to build Eclipse ships in only a few months. The same with Sovereign's, World Devastators, and the Galaxy Gun. Industry is where the Empire truly shined.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
What other "huge" governments were there that weren't enslaved by the Empire. All shipyards were under their jurisdiction, and had some Imperial presence even though they also sported their own fleets i.e KDY.

The Hapans. And the Yevatha. The Hutts. The New Republic. The Chiss. Should I go on? There shipyards were definitely not all under Imperial jurisdiction. Get your facts strait.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The bombardment of three Venators did not scratch its hull. And it had hundreds of Turbolaser batteries.

Wow. Three Venators. We already know that a SINGLE ISD has the equivalent of 180 pre-Empire turbolasers. The Vong Miid Ro'ik, which a rather common in the Vong fleet, are even more powerful.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The CIS had the production capabilities to produce millions of warships, and quintillion of battle droids. Their primary ability to produce fleets came from KDY which is how the Republic mangaged to produce thousands of Venators in like a year, they have the capacity to build superweapons as well i.e. the Eclipse and dozens of SSDs. May I add the Jedi Order as I said at the start of this thread have access to KDY

We already know those quotes are just as bullshit as the 3 million clones figure. The CIS has the ability to produce the Eclipse and ISD's? Nope.

Well, not that they didn't have the materials for it, but the blueprints and designs... 'nother story.

The Confederacy had both.

Count Dooku and the Geonosians were planning to build a proto-Death Star quite literally on the very first day on the job.

Originally posted by truejedi
hey, don't bring BOOG into this!

Who said anything about BOOG?

*Whistles*