Count Dooku & Mace Windu vs. Exar Kun & Darth Bane

Originally posted by Advent
[B]What!...We're not getting heated or pissing??...Well, maybe Lightsnake is...you know how much of an overactive bladder he has. Don't be afraid to enter the convo, Darth Sexy. We won't bite. 👿 It's more fun with more people plus we have different views so we get more out of it.

1. Mace needed a lightsaber to block Sidious' lightning (dark side energy same as blasts) and struggled. You can't block the amulet beams with a lightsaber, so you need to use your hands.

What happens when they try to defend against it? The exertion required to block against an attack of that magnitude would be a considerable amount of power, & Kun can fire with no downtime & it gets twice as strong each time.

Plus there's a huge element of surprise 'cause they've never seen anything like it before. I'd like to know what makes you think they could stop it.

"They are powerful" - Kun is more powerful & so is his pimp hand where the gauntlet lies.

2. JvS is a fallible, in-universe source. The Ep. I Visual Dictionary says that Exar Kun built the first saber ever in Maul's entry, the databank says Kun was the 1st recorded to have one.

Also it would be impractical during that time since the Jedi had to fight with battery packs that had chords to charge the saber - a DBL-blade would be extremely hard to use because of its already limited movement. No proof there was a style in that holocron if it existed, much less one Kun could use. So JvS is retconned by Advent.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I never claimed Mace or Dooku or anybody could block the amulet blasts with their hands. I simply said you have no evidence Kun could even use the blasts in an all out fight with other force users.

This is great. He was capable of using the amulet while being unarmed otherwise and attacked by a giant Sith Wyrm. He was capable of blasting Aleema Keto (probably without his amulet) while the Sith Sorceress did attack him via lethal Sith Magic. Yet he will be stopped from doing it by a single lightsaber wielder? Especially when VS fights usually don't start in melee combat and while Kun also uses his weapon with one hand only?

Again this is assuming Kun even uses the amulet blasts or has the ability to use them against other force users, especially powerful ones. To even have the chance, he'd have to get distance from his combatants, which is easier said than done, if not really impossible. And this is assuming Kun doesn't get sliced into bits by Mace or Dooku.

See above. And what? Excuse me. Kun is knocking out Aleema Keto for minutes with a casual Sith Magic blast. In his spirit form he reduces Gantoris into a burned skeleton and rips Luke's spirit out of his body. That aside from tossing people around in combat situations as if they were ragdolls. Meaning he probably doesn't even need his amulets.

And please. You really want to tell us that Kun isn't capable of applying force attacks if we start the fight with some distance between the opponent or even in melee combat, despite using his blade with one hand?

Are you serious? Lol. Advent, it's been retconned. And please, show me these other sources. But if you're going to play the "its fallible!" game, I guess the other sources are as well, except it's a retcon and therefore valid.

Kun was NOT the first to create the blade, it was done by the exiles whether you think it was logical or not due to the chords. If Kun was not the first to create that particular blade, then he didn't create a unique style for it. Once again, JvS retcons your sources, I don't care how sexy escape finds you.

ROFL, Sexy. What a great application of logic that is.

You are aware of the fact that everything said in JvsS refers to the usual DBL design with the extreme long hilt, correct? Kun pretty much built a DBL with a usual length lightsaber hilt - and that, my friend, is a unique weapon design. And he also used a unique style for it just because of that.

And even if you want to assume that he got the design from some other source, that doesn't mean his style can't be unique. If you want to argue that, than Mace Windu couldn't have come up with Vaapad because he didn't invent the lightsaber...

Yet, even if you should be correct with the (imho hilarious) assumption, that neither Kun's weapon nor style were unique - you would still be confronted with the facts that:

a) Kun constructed the weapon and mastered the corresponding style in less than six months of time, which alone is enough to recall him as one of the most prodigious lightsaber wielders in the saga.

b) That his weapon still offers some nice advantages in terms of combat (altering the intensity / length of the blades etc.)

c) no member of the opposing team has ever confronted a DBL wielding master duellist.

d) Kun trumps Mace and Dooku as well in terms of force abilities, speed and possible even strength (certainly in Dooku's case).

So...what exactly do you want to argue here?

Originally posted by Borbarad
This is great. He was capable of using the amulet while being unarmed otherwise and attacked by a giant Sith Wyrm. He was capable of blasting Aleema Keto (probably without his amulet) while the Sith Sorceress did attack him via lethal Sith Magic. Yet he will be stopped from doing it by a single lightsaber wielder? Especially when VS fights usually don't start in melee combat and while Kun also uses his weapon with one hand only?

See above. And what? Excuse me. Kun is knocking out Aleema Keto for minutes with a casual Sith Magic blast. In his spirit form he reduces Gantoris into a burned skeleton and rips Luke's spirit out of his body. That aside from tossing people around in combat situations as if they were ragdolls. Meaning he probably doesn't even need his amulets.

And please. You really want to tell us that Kun isn't capable of applying force attacks if we start the fight with some distance between the opponent or even in melee combat, despite using his blade with one hand?

You are aware of the fact that everything said in JvsS refers to the usual DBL design with the extreme long hilt, correct? Kun pretty much built a DBL with a usual length lightsaber hilt - and that, my friend, is a unique weapon design. And he also used a unique style for it just because of that.

And even if you want to assume that he got the design from some other source, that doesn't mean his style can't be unique. If you want to argue that, than Mace Windu couldn't have come up with Vaapad because he didn't invent the lightsaber...

Yet, even if you should be correct with the (imho hilarious) assumption, that neither Kun's weapon nor style were unique - you would still be confronted with the facts that:

a) Kun constructed the weapon and mastered the corresponding style in less than six months of time, which alone is enough to recall him as one of the most prodigious lightsaber wielders in the saga.

b) That his weapon still offers some nice advantages in terms of combat (altering the intensity / length of the blades etc.)

c) no member of the opposing team has ever confronted a DBL wielding master duellist.

So...what exactly do you want to argue here? [/B]

Thank you, Borbarad. To quell the JvS myth further:

JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.

One line from an in-universe, third party source does not retcon anything! An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own. Fact. As for the form: There's no proof that a style was with it or that Kun would even use it. The battery pack's chord was connected to the hilt of the saber during the Exiles' era, therefore restricting movement to an extreme degree. So the Jedi would've had to adapt for that, Kun would not have to with the advancement of modern lightsabers.

This is important to consider since twirling the saber like Kun does would tangle the chord, cut it & cut off power to their lightsaber! So it is safe to assume that even if he didn't create the model (he did), he created an entirely new style. Evidence firmly supports me, your evidence is "Tionne said it, it must be true!". Uh....NAH! 🙄

Not to mention, it states that the imaginary holocron might of came from the Exiles. JvS is not conclusive proof of a retcon when it doesn't even have its facts straight nor does it make sense nor does it have authority over OOU.

[Darth Vader] Search your feelings, you know it to be true! [/Darth Vader] 😉

As a spectator, reigning judge, and chief servant of my Master, the Great Publius, I remain unconvinced on certain issues. I'd prefer some more elucidation regarding Kun's obvious superiority over Dooku or Windu (not that it isn't the case, but it doesn't seem spectacularly considerable) or how his defeat of Vodo is relevant whatsoever. Call me a hardliner, but I was never convinced that Vodo amounted to anything in terms of universal skill and achievement. He is certainly outclassed by the feats -- and by miles and miles, I might add -- that we've seen from Dooku or Windu.

So just for my personal benefit, could anyone direct me to answers about these two things?

So what you're doing Advent, is playing the pick and choose game, ignoring the fact that the newer material automatically retcons the older material. It doesn't matter if you think it's illogical or if it doesn't offer the explanation you want. It says that Kun was NOT the creator of the style, so that's it. It doesn't matter if he MIGHT have gotten it from the exiles, but he DID get it from the holocron. You're sexy and all but facts and retcon override your busty physique.

You're sexy and all but facts and retcon override your busty physique.

I wouldn't go that far. But I'd let her physique override me any day.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And now that's retconned by new info. The New Essential Chronology retconned a lot. Point is?

Kun's inventive capabilities are in question now and prior sources be damned.

Or just snatch Kun's arm when he's focusing everything on the amulet and snap it back.

Or you just throw up a shield and use the amount of time from the first one to put yourself in a better position.

Mace can't block them, and he won't be able to evade them any more easily than he can evade telekinetic assaults or Force-lightning.

Originally posted by Advent
Thank you, Borbarad. To quell the JvS myth further:

JvS is from Tionne Solusar, NJO historian four millenia after the GSW. She got that info from the Tedyrn Holocron. Since the Tedryn Holocron is a Jedi artifact, a Jedi must've recorded that. No Jedi could know where Kun's design came from & they'd be a fallible source to begin with, much like the narrator already is.

[b]One line from an in-universe, third party source does not retcon anything! An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:

"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"

The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own. Fact. As for the form: There's no proof that a style was with it or that Kun would even use it.

The battery pack's chord was connected to the hilt of the saber during the Exiles' era, therefore restricting movement to an extreme degree. So the Jedi would've had to adapt for that, Kun would not have to with the advancement of modern lightsabers.

This is important to consider since twirling the saber like Kun does would tangle the chord, cut it & cut off power to their lightsaber! So it is safe to assume that even if he didn't create the model (he did), he created an entirely new style.

Evidence firmly supports me, your evidence is "Tionne said it, it must be true!". Uh....NAH! 🙄

Not to mention, it states that the imaginary holocron might of came from the Exiles. JvS is not conclusive proof of a retcon when it doesn't even have its facts straight nor does it make sense nor does it have authority over OOU.

[Darth Vader] Search your feelings, you know it to be true! [/Darth Vader] 😉 [/B]

Originally posted by Faunus
Her point is that at least two C-canon sources have omniscient narrators saying one thing, and a newer C-canon source has an in-universe author saying another. Two Infallible Sources >> One Fallible Source.

I don't know what part of "doubles in power" you're not getting. Mace Windu's tremendous strength couldn't hold back Sidious's lightning, even with the assistance of Vaapad, his lightsaber, and a superior position. These blasts double in power every shot, can be fired on a whim, and are easily powerful enough even in the beginning to blast holes through massive Sith wyrms and stone walls when used by an angry neophyte dark-sider.

Mace can't block them, and he won't be able to evade them any more easily than he can evade telekinetic assaults or Force-lightning.

Given the agility Mace has shown? He's going to be evading them without any issue. Frankly, Kun will be lucky to be able to get many, if any blasts off on a mobile opponent without catching his busy partner in the blasts or before his enemy either takes his arm off or forces close quarter combat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He used sith magic on aleema that had nothing to di wht the amulet. So he blasted a sith wyrm using both hands, which means he's going to be able to do the same against 1-2 powerful force users? Makes a lot of sense Nai. I love the "omg he will pwn everyone with his amuletz lol" logic.

And I love your total absence of logic.

Can you tell us once more why the same Exar Kun who can run circles around a Sith creation while blasting it with the amulet and who can raise his hand, walk through a lethal force attack and blast the person who did attack him, shall be unable to use his amulet before or in a melee fight?

Ah yes, assuming ANYONE he's pwned was anywhere NEAR the level of Dooku or Windu. Your example works more for my argument than it does for yours.

Yeah, right. Because nowadays Mace and Dooku are familiar with Sith Amulets, Sith Magic and able to defend themselves against those, right. Oh wait. Dooku seems to have some trouble blocking his very own force lightning - how would he deal with anything that Exar Kun could throw at him? And Mace? The guy needs his lightsaber to fend of Sidious force lightning - which is impressive. But Kun's regular force attacks don't appear to be blockable with a lightsaber.

I guess using your logic, Dooku will continuously shoot sith lightning at Exar Kun to prevent him from using his amulets.

Even if he would do that - he would do so against Exar Kun who resisted the most powerful lightside technique there is and walked right through a lethal Sith Magic blast by Aleema Keto.

What I am AWARE of is the fact that you either:
A.) Didn't read JvS at all
or
B.) Have the reading comprehension skills of a paraplegic 3rd grader.
JvS states that Exar Kun developing his blade is a misconception, and that he used the design and specs from the holocron. You lose.

I'm afraid, little sucker. Next time you want to give out a lecture in reading comprehension, you might do that in front of a mirror.

Notice how JvsS (page 107) tells us that "the earliest record of a Jedi-expatriate-turned-Sith using a lightsaber" was Freedom Nadd in 4,400 BBY. On the very same page it lists the source for the idea that Kun didn't invent the DBL as the Tendryn Holocron. And what was that thing? Oh yes. A Jedi holocron...

So what?

a) If Nadd is the first recorded user of a lightsaber, how would anybody develop the idea that anybody used a lightsaber - much less a DBL - before that date?

b) We know that the Jedi, before the Dark Jedi went into Exile, where using regular swords. Even in times of the Great Hyperspace war, they were using lightsabers with power packs and a cable on their back for the reason that they weren't able to generate enough power for a stable blade without it. Now, really: A DBL would need twice the energy of a regular lightsaber, meaning any "pre Kun" DBL user would have needed to carry two of that power packs around to make his blade work. And then he would have needed to attach the power cable at the middle of the hilt (as there is no "end" to put it on). May I ask you how somebody should have fought with that thing?

c) Where the hell did a Jedi get the information from where Kun got his blade design from? And hell...from what "Sith Holocron" should Kun have extracted the design from? Sadow didn't use lightsabers, Nadd didn't use a DBL and the only other source would be the holocron that Kun took from Odan Urr - which he destroyed.

Simply put: It's absolutely stupid to assume that anybody, be it one of the Jedi Exiles, a Jedi or a later Sith Lord developed a double-bladed lightsaber before the end of the Great Hyperspace war. Such a weapon would simply have been impractical due to insufficient power supply in that era. And even if Kun did follow instructions from some mysterious Sith Holocron (which doesn't make any sense at all), that doesn't mean that he also found lessons how to wield such a weapon in the same holocron.

And nope. That it was written down doesn't mean that we have a "retcon" here automatically. Or shall we assume that post NJO Luke Skywalker life is threatened each and every time he faces a Droideka because Timothy Zahn thinks that would be a good idea? Did Sidious die multiple times before ROTJ as he claims in DE? See. Unless something is confirmed by an out of universe source, we can simply ignore it. The Sith Empire issue was also up for debate before "Evil Never Dies" and the corresponding article in Insider88 where released.

Except Mace is proven to have a unique style. Exar Kun isn't. The onus is on you to prove his style is unique.

This is great. How many people did we see wielding around a DBL with one - constantly changing - hand, while adjusting the blade length and blade intensity in combat? None except Exar Kun. Great.

Please show me a source that states he mastered it.

He outduels Vodo with that weapon. The same Vodo that trained pretty much everybody we see in the TOTJ comics. The same Vodo that was able to locate Kun's balance point and floor him in a split second. The same Vodo that was wielding a stick "more powerful than a lightsaber". I guess one would need some mastery with the weapon he's using to kill that dude in straight forward combat.

Congratulations, so does a huge dick.

Congratulatioons for having nothing to say and instead of admitting that come up with some infantile reply. Really. The "K" in "KMC" doesn't stand for "Kindergarten".

Prove it. Since you can't, we know they are familiar with the DBL so you lose again.

Oh. Dooku and Mace are familiar with a DBL wielded with one hand while the blade length and insensity are altered constantly? You might give me the name of the being they encountered who wielded the weapon in that fashion.

My argument is quite clear, Yours is full of opinions, misinterpretations, and downright nonsense. Bravo Nai.

Your so called "argument" consists of running to Lightsnake and cling to his coat-tails. Nice work, though. I bet a trained monkey wouldn't do worse.

Originally posted by Borbarad

Can you tell us once more why the same Exar Kun who can run circles around a Sith creation while blasting it with the amulet and who can raise his hand, walk through a lethal force attack and blast the person who did attack him, shall be unable to use his amulet before or in a melee fight?

Yeah, right. Because nowadays Mace and Dooku are familiar with Sith Amulets, Sith Magic and able to defend themselves against those, right. Oh wait. Dooku seems to have some trouble blocking his very own force lightning - how would he deal with anything that Exar Kun could throw at him? And Mace? The guy needs his lightsaber to fend of Sidious force lightning - which is impressive. But Kun's regular force attacks don't appear to be blockable with a lightsaber.

Even if he would do that - he would do so against Exar Kun who resisted the most powerful lightside technique there is and walked right through a lethal Sith Magic blast by Aleema Keto.

Notice how JvsS (page 107) tells us that "the earliest record of a Jedi-expatriate-turned-Sith using a lightsaber" was Freedom Nadd in 4,400 BBY. On the very same page it lists the source for the idea that Kun didn't invent the DBL as the Tendryn Holocron. And what was that thing? Oh yes. A Jedi holocron...

a) If Nadd is the first recorded user of a lightsaber, how would anybody develop the idea that anybody used a lightsaber - much less a DBL - before that date?

c) Where the hell did a Jedi get the information from where Kun got his blade design from? And hell...from what "Sith Holocron" should Kun have extracted the design from? Sadow didn't use lightsabers, Nadd didn't use a DBL and the only other source would be the holocron that Kun took from Odan Urr - which he destroyed.

Simply put: It's absolutely stupid to assume that anybody, be it one of the Jedi Exiles, a Jedi or a later Sith Lord developed a double-bladed lightsaber before the end of the Great Hyperspace war. Such a weapon would simply have been impractical due to insufficient power supply in that era. And even if Kun did follow instructions from some mysterious Sith Holocron (which doesn't make any sense at all), that doesn't mean that he also found lessons how to wield such a weapon in the same holocron.

And nope. That it was written down doesn't mean that we have a "retcon" here automatically. Or shall we assume that post NJO Luke Skywalker life is threatened each and every time he faces a Droideka because Timothy Zahn thinks that would be a good idea? Did Sidious die multiple times before ROTJ as he claims in DE? See. Unless something is confirmed by an out of universe source, we can simply ignore it. The Sith Empire issue was also up for debate before "Evil Never Dies" and the corresponding article in Insider88 where released.

This is great. How many people did we see wielding around a DBL with one - constantly changing - hand, while adjusting the blade length and blade intensity in combat? None except Exar Kun. Great.

He outduels Vodo with that weapon. The same Vodo that trained pretty much everybody we see in the TOTJ comics. The same Vodo that was able to locate Kun's balance point and floor him in a split second. The same Vodo that was wielding a stick "more powerful than a lightsaber". I guess one would need some mastery with the weapon he's using to kill that dude in straight forward combat.

Congratulatioons for having nothing to say and instead of admitting that come up with some infantile reply. Really. The "K" in "KMC" doesn't stand for "Kindergarten".

Your so called "argument" consists of running to Lightsnake and cling to his coat-tails. Nice work, though. I bet a trained monkey wouldn't do worse. [/B]

Well, lets point out the ways you've embarrassed yourself.

1. Assuming I go to lightsnake(the guy who also pwns your arguments time and time again), seeing as how I haven't talked to him in over a year.
2. If a trained monkey couldn't do worse, that says a lot about your intelligence and the pitiful rebuttals you've given. I know English isn't your native language Naive, but that's no excuse for the excessive stupidity you've exhibited.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Talk about absence of logic. His "sith magic" on Aleema had nothing to do with his amulet blasts or the amulet itself. To argue this point would be to argue against facts, which you love doing so much. Furthermore, he had to hold out both hands blasting a sith wyrm. Nothing says he'll be able to do so freely against powerful force users. But I love this antedeluvian "Kun could pwn anybody with his amulet blazstsz!!" logic.

Are you a moron? Oh,wait. I've forgotten it's Darth Sexy I'm talking to. To blast Aleema, Kun was extending his arm, using his own power to fire at her while walking right through Aleema's own attack. If he can point at her with his left arm - how would it impossible for him to do the same with the amulet arm?

And yes. He was using both hands to grip the amulet because he wasn't able to control it. And now you may have a look at the scene where he annihilates Nadd, apparently just minutes after that very incident. One hand.

So...where are the "facts" I'm arguing against? You are apparently assuming that Kun is neither able to lift his right arm to perform an easier task than he did when raising his left arm against Aleema Keto. And you also seem to assume that he gained no additional control about the amulet - despite the fact that he blasts Nadd away with it. Well. Who's arguing against the facts now, Sexy?

What force attacks? The ones that were absent during his time alive? I didn't see him pwn anybody with his black snakes during his time alive. Nobody is arguing Kun's force superiority here. But what happens if Kun gets decapitated before he can unleash whatever it is you're talking about.

Did you miss the scene where he kills Odan Urr with a single force attack? The same Odan Urr who did take out Ancient Sith in direct confrontation. And this right after resisting the same technique that Odan Urr used to defeat those people? Did you miss how he knocks Aleema out with the above mentioned attack?

And what? Do you want to tell us know that he learned new techniques while in his weak spirit shape hardly able to speak with anybody? How very logical. Why not assume that Dooku can't lift a cookie with the force "because we've never seen it"?

He resisted an attack by an average force user. If you're going to try and claim Odan Urr is anything ABOVE average, you prove it. Otherwise, it's not that impressive. And neither is Aleema's sith magic.

He defeated Ancient Sith in combat. The same people that would, according to Kreia, make herself and the Exile look like children in actual confronation. I'm afraid. The guy seems to be rather powerful. And Aleema's Sith Magic? Yeah. We just saw her burning the skin of one of her servants off with a nice little blast of that. Who was the last person you saw reducing people to ashes? Sidious?

Notice how different things are listed in different holocrons. Hell one of the pages said Nadd existed 1400 years after Sadow. Your attempts to discredit JvS with your bullshit don't work.

I don't have to discredit it. It does so pretty much on it's own. And thanks for coming up with another argument for my position. It's a vague in-universe-source based on more vague in-universe-sources. Fact. End of story.

This logic would make sense if you disregard all of GAOTS and their lightsabers, and the history of the lightsaber, which would pretty much destroy your whole argument.

Oh sure. Somehow we are thrusting JvsS on the single issue and ignore everything else said in the very same source? Great way of constructing an argument pal.

I recited the history of the lightsaber pretty much. I wonder how you've missed that. But wait...again I've forgotten that I'm talking to Darth "God I'm so ignorant that my head is one second from imploding" Sexy. We can see Odan-Urr wielding the cable-powerpack-variation of a lightsaber right in time of the Great Hyperspace War. The other Jedi shown are doing the same. So. You are, effectively, assuming that somebody in that time or (according to JvsS) 2,000 years before that, already had designed a weapon based on technology not even available in the time.

Yes. That sounds so freaking logical.

My job is not to prove where Kun got the idea. The fact that it is stated that "the invention of the DBL is mistakenly given the Exar Kun when Exar Kun used the instructions of the holocron" is all I need to make a valid point. Your only defense is "omg its not canon or its in universe!#!"

Erm, no Sexy. What is stated is the following:

"The construction and use of the first DBL is sometimes credited to [...] Exar Kun, but according to the Tedryn Holocron, Exar Kun assembled his weapon by following instructions from a Sith Holocron [...]"

So what exactly does that tell us, Sexy? That Kun's weapon is in no way unique? No. It tells us that he followed some unknown instructions from an unknown source in order to construct the weapon. What where those instructions? A complete blueprint of the weapon - or the simple idea to construct a lightsaber with two blades? We don't know.

So even if we assume this to be the truth, Kun's weapon could still be unique. And that even says much less about the style he wields it with or did you see something telling us that he got a matching weapon style from the same source? No?

Not that this would have any effect on this issue here. No matter what style and weapon design Kun was using - it was notably different from regular DBL design and the corresponding fighting style. So Mace and Dooku would be unfamiliar with it.

Again, you rationalize whatever the hell you want, since rationalization against facts always provides a losing argument.

Wow. That must be the most stupid thing I've read from you so far. And that's quite an archievement, considering the bullshit you usually litter this forum with.

JvS retconned its previous sources about the DBL. Don't cry about it just because you don't like it.

A retcon just happens when the continuity is officially altered. A statement within an in-universe-source doesn't qualify. And as I said above: It wouldn't change a damn thing.

How many people had access to the holocron that Kun had during Kun's time? None. Great.

And despite of that, you're still claiming that Mace and Dooku would be familiar with Kun's alternate DBL design and the corresponding fighting style...

Or the fact that Vodo has never seen the dbl. Ooops look how easy it is to trump your simple minded arguments.

Which means that Kun would also pwn Dooku and Mace because they didn't see the weapon before either? Yes. Great thinking that was on your side, moron.

Damn, embarrassing yourself has become a daily routine for you.

I bet your mother tells you that when she wakes you up in the morning. In your case, she's absolutely correct. And please don't continue with that unfunny flaming attempts. You ever were nothing but a victim to me, you're still a victim and you will ever be a victim in that department.

1. Assuming I go to lightsnake(the guy who also pwns your arguments time and time again), seeing as how I haven't talked to him in over a year.

Let's do a reality check: You can't even recognize a metaphor if it jumps right into your face and despite of that you attempt to lecture people on reading comprehension. Now, after being completely inable to understand the metaphor, thus revealing how dump you are, you want to lecture me on emberassment. The irony is killing me. How do you manage to get your shorts on in the morning - all by yourself. That's remarkable.

I know English isn't your native language Naive, but that's no excuse for the excessive stupidity you've exhibited.

I know that "thinking" is a task you don't perform on a regular basis, but attempting to flame people with "I know that English isn't your first language", especially when those people usually destroy every line of thought you develop here, is even an all-time-low for yourself. But well...we can continue this discussion in German if you like? French? Islandic? See...

Usually I would pity individuals like yourself who possess an IQ that roughly equals that of a 10 metre long cartway. Just don't run around in front of me with a "I'm stupid! Hit me!" T-shirt and everything might be fine. And now you can focus on the topic or spent the rest of your trolling days on my ignore list, TDTD. Your choice.

Originally posted by Borbarad
]Are you a moron? Oh,wait. I've forgotten it's Darth Sexy I'm talking to. To blast Aleema, Kun was extending his arm, using his own power to fire at her while walking right through Aleema's own attack. If he can point at her with his left arm - how would it impossible for him to do the same with the amulet arm?

And yes. He was using both hands to grip the amulet because he wasn't able to control it. And now you may have a look at the scene where he annihilates Nadd, apparently just minutes after that very incident. One hand.

So...where are the "facts" I'm arguing against? You are apparently assuming that Kun is neither able to lift his right arm to perform an easier task than he did when raising his left arm against Aleema Keto. And you also seem to assume that he gained no additional control about the amulet - despite the fact that he blasts Nadd away with it. Well. Who's arguing against the facts now, Sexy?

Did you miss the scene where he kills Odan Urr with a single force attack? The same Odan Urr who did take out Ancient Sith in direct confrontation. And this right after resisting the same technique that Odan Urr used to defeat those people? Did you miss how he knocks Aleema out with the above mentioned attack?

He defeated Ancient Sith in combat. The same people that would, according to Kreia, make herself and the Exile look like children in actual confronation. I'm afraid. The guy seems to be rather powerful. And Aleema's Sith Magic? Yeah. We just saw her burning the skin of one of her servants off with a nice little blast of that. Who was the last person you saw reducing people to ashes? Sidious?

I don't have to discredit it. It does so pretty much on it's own. And thanks for coming up with another argument for my position. It's a vague in-universe-source based on more vague in-universe-sources. Fact. End of story.

Oh sure. Somehow we are thrusting JvsS on the single issue and ignore everything else said in the very same source? Great way of constructing an argument pal.

I recited the history of the lightsaber pretty much. I wonder how you've missed that. But wait...again I've forgotten that I'm talking to Darth "God I'm so ignorant that my head is one second from imploding" Sexy. We can see Odan-Urr wielding the cable-powerpack-variation of a lightsaber right in time of the Great Hyperspace War. The other Jedi shown are doing the same. So. You are, effectively, assuming that somebody in that time or (according to JvsS) 2,000 years before that, already had designed a weapon based on technology not even available in the time.

Erm, no Sexy. What is stated is the following:

"The construction and use of the first DBL is sometimes credited to [...] Exar Kun, but according to the Tedryn Holocron, Exar Kun assembled his weapon by following instructions from a Sith Holocron [...]"

So what exactly does that tell us, Sexy? That Kun's weapon is in no way unique? No. It tells us that he followed some unknown instructions from an unknown source in order to construct the weapon. What where those instructions? A complete blueprint of the weapon - or the simple idea to construct a lightsaber with two blades? We don't know.

So even if we assume this to be the truth, Kun's weapon could still be unique. And that even says much less about the style he wields it with or did you see something telling us that he got a matching weapon style from the same source? No?

Not that this would have any effect on this issue here. No matter what style and weapon design Kun was using - it was notably different from regular DBL design and the corresponding fighting style. So Mace and Dooku would be unfamiliar with it.

Wow. That must be the most stupid thing I've read from you so far. And that's quite an archievement, considering the bullshit you usually litter this forum with.

A retcon just happens when the continuity is officially altered. A statement within an in-universe-source doesn't qualify. And as I said above: It wouldn't change a damn thing.

And despite of that, you're still claiming that Mace and Dooku would be familiar with Kun's alternate DBL design and the corresponding fighting style...

I bet your mother tells you that when she wakes you up in the morning. In your case, she's absolutely correct. And please don't continue with that unfunny flaming attempts. You ever were nothing but a victim to me, you're still a victim and you will ever be a victim in that department.

Let's do a reality check: You can't even recognize a metaphor if it jumps right into your face and despite of that you attempt to lecture people on reading comprehension. Now, after being completely inable to understand the metaphor, thus revealing how dump you are, you want to lecture me on emberassment. The irony is killing me. How do you manage to get your shorts on in the morning - all by yourself. That's remarkable.

I know that "thinking" is a task you don't perform on a regular basis, but attempting to flame people with "I know that English isn't your first language", especially when those people usually destroy every line of thought you develop here, is even an all-time-low for yourself. But well...we can continue this discussion in German if you like? French? Islandic? See...

Usually I would pity individuals like yourself who possess an IQ that roughly equals that of a 10 metre long cartway. Just don't run around in front of me with a "I'm stupid! Hit me!" T-shirt and everything might be fine. And now you can focus on the topic or spent the rest of your trolling days on my ignore list, TDTD. Your choice. [/B]

Seeing as how you can't stop embarrassing yourself, maybe you should do everybody else a favor and quit posting? Either way, your posts are hilarious so do what you'd like pookie.

Oh my f***ing god. That is so much bullshit that I won't waste my free-time by going through this point by point.

Amulet? Sith Magic? Why DS can't get simple point...

Really. Contrary to your assertions, which must be you "playing dumb" (at least I hope so) I didn't state that the amulet has anything to do with the attack that Kun hits Aleema with. I was merely pointing out that instead of raising his left hand and firing that Sith Magic attack at Aleema, Kun could also have lifted his right hand and fire an amulet blast.

Can you follow so far? I hope so.

Now if Kun is able to dash out force attacks while simply walking through opponents attacks or, seeing the action with Odan-Urr, can recover from devastating force attacks in the matter of seconds or, as seen, can jump around that nice Sith worm while firing his amulet, I don't see how anything Mace or Dooku could do - force wise - is going to stop him from using the amulet or any other force attack he can come up with?

Is that clear now? Did you get it? Or do I have to find somebody who speaks fluent moron?

Odan-Urr and Aleema Keto? Are they powerful?

One must love your sudden amnesia concerning Odan-Urr, Sexy. I mean what is this here?

Oh yes. It's Odan telling Nomi that he became adept to blocking somebodies connection to the force when the Jedi drove the Ancient Sith to extinction. Your comment regarding FotSE is absolutely hilarious in this context. Unless you want to tell me that the complete Sith race, inhabiting more than 100 planets, was either fighting on 3 planets with Sadow or manning the fleet of Ludo Kressh that Sadow confronted when he returned.

So Odan did confront Sith Lords in combat and blocked their connection to the force. And usually, Jedi don't get weaker in force abilities when they reach higher age. Odan was physically weak perhabs which might have made it easier for Kun to kill him. But the initial attack of the Jedi, which Kun simply resisted, must have been quite powerful.

And regarding Kreias comment: Excuse me Sexy. Can you please at least attempt to form a coherent argument? Either all in-universe sources (characters, holocrons, texts etc.) are questionable - or none is. You can't pick the ones that fit your opinion and scream "canon" or "retcon" and ignore anything else at will. That doesn't work. If the holocron must be correct, the same is the case for Kreia. End of story.

That leaves us with Aleema Keto. Did it ever occur to you that Nomi Sunrider, one of the eras prodigies, had apparent problems with countering Aleema's illusions? That aside, it still requires some nice amount of force powers to instantly burn off the skin of a human being - no matter if the victim is a force user or not. Not to mention that the narrator of DLotS lists Aleema as a "potential rival" to Exar Kun and she gives Ulic the Sith amulet stating that it "perhabs will give [him] an advantage over [her]", implying that Ulic and her were equals at that point in time. Is that powerful enough for you?

The Double Blade - what sources can we thrust?

And now let's get to the core of the pile of bullshit you've produced this far.

You are aware of the fact, Sexy, that holocrons aren't sources containing material from some omniscient beings, correct? They contain recordings of individuals within the SW universe. In this case, we have the Tedryn Holocron which is a Jedi holocron. So what we have in JvsS is an in-universe-character (Tionne) accessing stuff that other in-universe-characters left behind. Enough for a retcon?

Nope. There are multiple reason for that. The main reason is, of course, that this source is contradicted by two omniscient out-of-universe sources that state Kun did design the weapon. Unless they are contradicted by a source of equal nature or higher canon, that stands - no matter what some in-universe-source says.

That aside: Consider the nature of the holocron. It contains recordings made by Jedi. And there you have the very problem: When Kun constructed the blade, the former Jedi trainees and Jedi (he recruited on Ossus) were under the control of the spirits from the stolen Sith holocron. The only "normal" people left were Ulic and Aleema - who spent their time away from Yavin 4, so they wouldn't have noticed what Kun was doing - not to mention that Aleema was killed before the end of the war. Yet Kun's knowledge perished together with the Sith Lord. So please tell me how the Jedi could have obtained any details about Kun's weapon design. From Lala-Land?

Then we have Kun himself who asks Vodo if his former master likes the "modifications" he has make to his lightsaber. If he just modified his own weapon, that rules out the possibility that he constructed an entirely new one. That he has gotten the complete design from any obscure Sith holocron is ruled out too - ironically by JvsS as source itself which claims that the Jedi Exiles becoming Sith Lords have "abandoned the use of lightsabers" which, 3000 years before Kun, where still those nice constructs with cables attached to them, meaning that any Sith Lord in the starting days of the Sith Empire coming up with the design Kun was using, would have had to made a quantum leap in lightsaber design to even consider such a construction possible [as the Jedi were still using the cable-design 2000 years after that this is rather unlikely].

Yet even if we assume that this idea of an in-universe-source is correct. How does that affect anything said about Exar Kun? Even if he discovered the design idea in some Sith holocron, constructed the regular-length hilt DBL from some blueprints he found and used a corresponding style he also found within said holocron - all of that would have been wiped out together with the Sith Lord himself. Unless you want to tell me that the Jedi that saw Exar Kun fighting with Vodo did an in-depth-analysis of his weapon and the corresponding combat style in the matter of minutes.

Which means that neither Dooku nor Mace would have the slightest idea about Kun's style or weapon. And then one could ask the question if it's harder to confront an opponent that uses an unfamiliar style [Kun facing Dooku or Mace] or if it's harder for one of the duo to face Kun - the guy who uses an unfamiliar style, an unfamiliar weapon, alters blade-length and intensity of his blades in combat aside from being more powerful and knowledgeable force wise than the two PT era force users.

To me the answer is pretty clear. But of course you can keep on with playing dumb and tossing out your Kindergarten level insults instead of putting any effort into an actual debating. Which might, of course, be healther for you, since we all know that trolling is your business and your attempts to construct arguments are even more pitiful than your attempts to be funny.

The Count and Mace can take this, Dooku is quite familiar with Jar Kai and all of its uses. Mace's Mastery of Vaapad will come in handy with an opponent as physically powerful as Darth Bane.
Dooku's Force and Saber mastery

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Count and Mace can take this, Dooku is quite familiar with Jar Kai and all of its uses.

Unfortunatelly, that won't get him anywhere since there is no Jar'Kai user participating in this fight, assuming that Kun uses his double-bladed lightsaber.

Mace's Mastery of Vaapad will come in handy with an opponent as physically powerful as Darth Bane.

And then it will be quite diminished in terms of efficiency, when wielded against an opponent like Darth Bane who is covered with orbalisks.

Dooku's Force and Saber mastery

...are pretty nice, but force wise he's no Exar Kun...

I've stayed away because I know very little about Kun, but I've gotta take a stab at this.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Unfortunatelly, that won't get him anywhere since there is no Jar'Kai user participating in this fight, assuming that Kun uses his double-bladed lightsaber.

Also, wookiepedia calls Jar'Kai/Niman the same thing, listing Maul as a Jar'Kai user.

Originally posted by Borbarad

And then it will be quite diminished in terms of efficiency, when wielded against an opponent like Darth Bane who is covered with orbalisks.

Actually, that is false. Vaapad would be exactly as efficient as it always is (he is fighting a powerful DS user, after all) but the dark sider's defense is just magnitudes greater than one he has fought before. Mace's shatterpoint ability would definitely show him the gap at the wrists, the opening at the face, and might even give his an opportunity to destroy parts of the armor- heck, even Jaina Solo was able to destroy Mandalorian Iron Armor with small applications of TK. Bane isn't able to stomp Windu, in any circumstance.

Originally posted by Borbarad

...are pretty nice, but force wise he's no Exar Kun...

One might say 'but force wise he's no Count Dooku of Sereno.' The Count is no slouch with the Force- devoting himself to Sith teachings after his departure from the Order, even though he was already one of the more powerful Jedi Force users of the PT. Apparently he knows Force Flight, as well as being very skilled at mental manipulation, Quey'tek meditation, and telekinesis- not to mention Force Lightning.

Dooku's good. I wouldn't be surprised if Kun was better (resisted Force sever, etc.) but he wouldn't be able to outclass Dooku, so it would come down to sabers. In a saber duel I would call in favor of the Count in a slim majority of their fights, due to his mastery of Form II and familiarity with other forms of combat.

Dooku is able to resist and deflect casually from General "No human could move remotely as fast as" Grievous, so I don't see Kun (who also lacks Skywalker's Force reserves) just blitzing and overwhelming the Count even strength-to-strength.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Dooku was more than capable of dealing with a double bladed lightsaber- he trained Asajj to fight with a saberstaff. Kun won't be able to surprise him there.

The point is, that Kun is not using a regular double-blade. His lightsaber uses a standard length hilt, it's dual phase (variable lengths of the blade) and Kun can alter the intensity of the blades (from Mandalorian iron cutting lightsaber to harmless lightbeam). So not only the weapon would be beyond everything Dooku has seen so far - the corresponding style (one handed wielding, constant change of bladelength / blade intensity) would also be something Dooku is entirely unfamiliar with.

Also, wookiepedia calls Jar'Kai/Niman the same thing, listing Maul as a Jar'Kai user.

Jar'Kai is the use of two seperate lightsabers. Maul maybe mastered the style but he was obviously using Juyo when wielding the DBL.

Actually, that is false. Vaapad would be exactly as efficient as it always is (he is fighting a powerful DS user, after all) but the dark sider's defense is just magnitudes greater than one he has fought before. Mace's shatterpoint ability would definitely show him the gap at the wrists, the opening at the face, and might even give his an opportunity to destroy parts of the armor- heck, even Jaina Solo was able to destroy Mandalorian Iron Armor with small applications of TK. Bane isn't able to stomp Windu, in any circumstance.

Okay. Let me rephrase that: Mace would encounter quite some problem to get through Bane's armor - even with his Shatterpoint ability. That is, by the way, not needed to find the weak spots (wrist etc.) of the armor at all. The point is that actually Bane could just focus on defending said weak spots while hits to any other body region wouldn't do much at all.

One might say 'but force wise he's no Count Dooku of Sereno.' The Count is no slouch with the Force- devoting himself to Sith teachings after his departure from the Order, even though he was already one of the more powerful Jedi Force users of the PT. Apparently he knows Force Flight, as well as being very skilled at mental manipulation, Quey'tek meditation, and telekinesis- not to mention Force Lightning.

Well. Exar Kun, while still training under Master Vodo was noted by the latter to be "the most powerful student he ever had". And this was coming from an individual that probably trained Jedi for five centuries and seen quite some Jedi in that time.

After his journey to the Dark Side Kun, according to his own words, had mastered all Sith Magic. The narrator of the TOTJ comics states that the Sith Lord has amassed "more knowledge than he could ever use". His variety of darkside techniques include force lightning (listed as practicioner by the DSSB), another variant of lightning that burns the user from the inside out (used against Gantoris), an attack that apparently conjures some "black serpents" or "black lightning", capable of seperating the victims spirit from the body - a technique that even DE Luke Sykwalker knew no defence against as stated in the Jedi Academy Trilogy. Kun is also capable of projecting beams of Sith Magic from his hand, enough to knock Aleema Keto out for several minutes and on top of that he has his amulets which can project quite powerful beams of energy (capable of tearing massive stone walls apart). The same amulet also increases Kun's TK (which would also affect his force aided strength - as this is done via TK according to Jedi VS Sith) and boost his force defence. Actually enough to walk right through a magic attack by Aleema Keto and resists the most devastating lightside technique there was.

Kun is also known for his creations in term of Sith Alchemy which include fun-stuff like the Terentateks or the Dark Reaper itself.

That being said, I don't believe that Dooku is even remotely compareable to Kun in his prime when it comes down to force abilities or force knowledge...

Dooku's good. I wouldn't be surprised if Kun was better (resisted Force sever, etc.) but he wouldn't be able to outclass Dooku, so it would come down to sabers. In a saber duel I would call in favor of the Count in a slim majority of their fights, due to his mastery of Form II and familiarity with other forms of combat.

Force wise? With his amulet? He clearly surpasses Dooku.

And saber wise? Despite Gideon's claim that Kun wouldn't be able to blitz Dooku, the guy is pretty damn fast. There is a scene in the DLotS comics where Kun comes out of Nadd's tomb and two Naddist are waiting for him, their blasters already aiming at the Dark Jedi, while Kun is carrying some scrolls out of the tomb. Before one of the Naddist is able to pull the trigger, Kun draws his lightsaber, activates it, speeds towards the first, cuts the first down, switches his weapon hand and cuts the second down. That all in less time than one of the two opponents already aiming at him needed to fire his weapon. That aside from the fact that he - in a less powerful state - stalemated Qel-Droma, who was in turn prodigious enough with a lightsaber to handle an enraged Jedi while not having any force powers on his own. And that's aside from the fact that Kun defeated Vodo before having completed his lightsaber training and later killed his former Master [apparently toying with him before that].

That aside from the fact that Kun possesses enough strength to push Sylvar on her knees using just one arm. He also puts his fingers right through the skull of the Republics Chancellor and lifts the alien up with one arm extended - apparently with ease.

So I guess that Kun is stronger and faster than Dooku, equiped with greater force abilities and using a style completely unfamiliar to the PT era Sith Lord. I really just don't see Mace or Dooku surviving a fight with Exar Kun - nor do I see one of the PT era duo taking out Bane before Kun has finished his opponent.