Count Dooku & Mace Windu vs. Exar Kun & Darth Bane

Originally posted by Borbarad
The point is, that Kun is not using a regular double-blade. His lightsaber uses a standard length hilt, it's dual phase (variable lengths of the blade) and Kun can alter the intensity of the blades (from Mandalorian iron cutting lightsaber to harmless lightbeam). So not only the weapon would be beyond everything Dooku has seen so far - the corresponding style (one handed wielding, constant change of bladelength / blade intensity) would also be something Dooku is entirely unfamiliar with.

So I guess that Kun is stronger and faster than Dooku, equiped with greater force abilities and using a style completely unfamiliar to the PT era Sith Lord. I really just don't see Mace or Dooku surviving a fight with Exar Kun - nor do I see one of the PT era duo taking out Bane before Kun has finished his opponent.

Yeah, you 'really just don't see it' because you ignore any evidence to the contrary, puff up anything Kun has to absurd levels while downplaying any Mace or Dooku possess. Keepgoing on and on how SPESHUL AND AWSUM Kun's style is while totally ignoring that not only is there nothing said to be unique whatsoever- both have seen DBLs anddual phase sabers were around in their time- but their styles are utterly unfamiliar to Kun who has never encountered a curved hilt saber or, it goes without saying, Vaapad.
In a saber fight, Kunny boy gets his ponytailed ass kicked and he's too arrogant and stupid to avoid one. Not only that, but he's shown absolutely nada to make anyone believe he's on the levels of the other three with the Force besides maybe stalemating Ulic. And even that's not nearly enough.

So no. Kun and Bane ignite sabers, Mace or Dooku kill him and then team up on Bane providing Mace hasn't killed him by that point.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And? It's a dual phase, so what? They were in use in Dooku's time, before Dooku's time and after Dooku's time. And just about every lightsaber can alter intensity from dealing a mild sting to cleaving flesh. Unless Dooku is going to be wearing armor that will stop a normal blade and mockingly let Kun get a free hit or Kun's high intensity will let him cut through Dooku's own saber, then it's a moot point.

Your interpretations of facts are amazing. Cars are commonly used in our time, which must mean every human being is capable of driving. Oh wait. That's not the case.

How does it matter that dual-phase blades were used in Dooku's time. Hell. Who did use a dual-phase lightsaber in that time exactly? Name some beings. Oh stop it, Lightsnake. It's specifically mentioned that those kinds of sabers where "rare" and completely "out of style" in the PT era. So why would Dooku be familiar with them?

And the intensity switching allows Kun to make opponents sabers pass through his own blade, which is not only outclassing any regular lightsaber in terms of "lowest possible intensity", but also a technique never employed in combat before or after Kun. But Dooku would also be familiar with that correct. And in turn...

Dooku's weapon is unfamiliar to Kun, however, and according to Rule of Two and PoD? The curved hilt saber makes a difference

Ah, yes. In turn, a slightly modified hilt-design, which allows more precise movements is teh uber advantage.

Zannah notes he puts no effort into defense because he doesn't need to. And he pays no mind to guarding his wrists, which Shatterpoint would let Mace know about. And Bane can't just bull Mace out of things.

Yeah. Zannah notes that a completely enraged Bane put no effort into his defense. Going berserk doesn't appear his regular behavior in lightsaber fights. And if he really didn't need to put any effort into his defense, he simply can't be hit. Yet he's obviously very well able to do it, if needed, going by the fact that he survived the onslaught Kas'im unleashed at him before receiving his orbalisks.

And Dooku has some pretty nice accolades from Yoda. Who'd been training Jedi for nearly twice the time Vodo had.

ROFL. How freaking deluded must somebody be to compare those statements? May I remind you that, when Yoda gave those statements about Dooku, the latter had already spent 8 decades as a force user and had already become a Sith Lord. Vodo gives the comment about Kun after the lecturing him on how he did not even finish his lightsaber training yet only minutes earlier.

Let's look at this a little more honestly. Kun sneers at Aleema, saying "I have learned EVERYTHING!" Seems more a boast. And amassed more knowledge than he could ever use? Yes. ON OSSUS WHEN HE PLUNDERED IT. What's funny about this is that he died almost immediately after and never had a chance to use it.

Really, Lightsnake. You, the probably most biased person as far as Ancient Sith characters are concerned, dare to claim that your analysis is "honest"? Hilarious. Apparently you somehow have forgotten that Kun walked straight through Aleema's attack without even being affected. So he can boast as much as he wants. That mere fact shows that he's leagues above her in terms of Sith knowledge. Which is not even mentioning his other exploits in that field (e.g. freezing or mind-controlling the entire Senate) and Sith Alchemy.

Again, looking at this a bit more honestly: Luke couldn't defend when Kyp had already attacked him and Luke, holding back, caught off guard, in the midst of a Dark Side nexus, and with Kun blasting him from behind? Couldn't defend.

Can you please leave your biased interpretations out of it? Thanks. The book specifically state that "every single defense Yoda has taught him" fails againt Kun's attack. Of course he might have resisted it due to sheer power if Kyp hasn't attacked him at the same time - yet he still didn't know any defense against it.

Pardon me if I'm vastly unimpressed by his resisting anything from the two most worthless people in all of Tales of the Jedi.

Pardon me if I'm vastly unimpressed by the personal view of "Mr.Bias" about pre-PT era characters. I know that you have moved your head so deep into Sidious anus, that you can't see anything left and right, but please don't bother the rest of us with your opinion - because nobody gives a flying ducky about it.

While the Terentatek origin is pretty up in the air, when is it said Kun created the Reaper? Nothing indicates Kun had a personal hand in its creation

Sure thing, pal. Things just materialized out of thin air in Kun's time. Apparently the New Essential Chronology disagrees with you because it says that the Dark Reaper was constructed by the Sith during the Great Sith War. So who the hell, if not Kun himself, should have done that? Ulic Qel-Droma? Or one of Kun's Sith-spirit-controlled Dark Jedi?

And yes. The Terentateks also appeared out of thin air, because the great Lightsnake says so. It's just coincidence that the Jedi developed the idea to hunt them down with a galaxy-wide series of events right after the death of Exar Kun.

Yes. Dooku with far more sources to draw on-including possibly the Telos Holocron, far more time to study it, known as one of the most powerful and gifted Jedi ever, who has demonstrated more power than any of the people Kun fought isn't even remotely comparable.
The one thing Dooku might not be 'remotely comparable' to Kun is his hair style. Besides that? he can more than give Kun a good fight

Oh. Dooku had more sources? Name some. Specify their content in comparision to the stuff Kun had. Really. Dooku had his Jedi training and limited access to one Sith Holocron, aside of that the had access to whatever Sidious might have given him. Kun also had his Jedi Training, adding the complete knowledge of Sadow, who had centuries to study the Dark Side and whatever he took from Ossus. Even if we ignore the latter, Kun still had access to the knowledge of the most accomplished Sith Magician / Alchemist we've seen in the saga so far. So I wonder how Dooku's knowledge is compareable to that.

Oh, the amulet he never uses in a fight? The amulet that has never been tried or tested against someone capable of disabling it? That amulet?

Erm. How do you descripe Kun's confrontation with Sadow's Sith creature on Yavin 4? I'd call that a fight, but according to you it must be something different because Kun never used the amulet in a fight, correct? Same thing with Kun annihilating Nadds spirit. No fight? And somebody capable of disabling it? Really, Lightsnake. Show me the being in the SW universe able to block force energies that annihilated half a dozen of human size Massassi on the spot with apparent ease and blast through giant creatures as well as walls.

The list of people capable to deal with such energy levels is rather short, and I don't see Dooku or Mace being on said list.

Oh, look, Nai's making shit up to make Kun look better. Kun doesn't 'switch' his hand.' At most there's an artist error Because the same hand he's using initially is the one to slie the other guy in half-as I've already pointed out. Mind telling me what the freaking point of Kun transferring cumbersome scrolls to his other hand while cutting people down.

I must have missed the fact that you happen to be the LFL employee responsible for canon displayed in comics now, Lightsnake. I've just sided what can be seen in the comics. Does it make sense to you that Mace switches his weapon hand when fighting Sidious? No? He does. Why? Do you want to write that off as an "artist error" too? Then we can stop all discussions here because everything not fitting into somebodies opinion will be an cartoonist / writer / director mistake from now on.

Oh, and he can kill two Naddist thugs before they can react, BIG FREAKING DEAL. Johun Othone of all people cuts down two assassins, described as moving 'faster than the eye can see' while doing it, so that puts Kun's feat here on par with the worst Jedi ever.

Excuse me, Lightsnake. They are both pointing their blasters at Kun who is unarmed in that situation. One of them on almost point blank range. The only thing compareable in the saga happens in the opening sequence of RotS, when Obi-Wan and Anakin are forced backwards by the droidekas into the elevator filled with battle droids. Yet they, unlike Kun, still had their weapons in hand and all opponents in direct melee range. Kun had to draw his weapon and ignite it before he was capable of doing anything.

And really. Get over your damn bias against pre-PT-era characters. Going by your logic, every Jedi or Sith in the saga is on one level with Johun, because they all have been descriped with similar words during combat.

'Handle?' You mean 'block a strike here and there while fleeing for his life.' He didn't beat Sylvar. He didn't come close to engaging her for an extended period of time

I must have missed the freaking time stamps on the comic pages because, unlike you, I don't know how long the duel lasted. Yet I also haven't seen some non-force-user who managed to survive against an enraged Jedi in melee combat for even a brief time period. Normally people die within seconds when confronting force users - especially enraged ones.

Yeah, because Vodo is so amazing when he loses to an enraged Padawan.
Get real. Vodo was a joke. A worthless joke of a Jedi Master who Dooku would walk through blindfolded

Have I already mentioned your pain-in-the-ass bias? Yes? No? Maybe so? At least attempt to come up with arguments instead dropping you "Mimimimimimi. All pre-PT characters suck. Mimimimi" whines where ever possible.

Dooku possesses enough strength to send Anakin Skywalker flying back with a kick and casually throw Quinlan Vos to the ground. Kun, in an insane rage grabs Sylvar's head and flings her to the ground. How is this somehow a measure of amazing strength?

He pushes her down, Lightsnake. That is no Judo move. He simply forces her to kneel down before him by pressing her head down. Try that yourself with somebody of your own size.

Yeah, the boneless cephalapod?

LOL. Could you please reactivate the stuff that should be located somewhere between your ears? The mere fact that the alien is standing and walking does mean that the dear Chancellor either has bones or an exosceleton, because otherwise, he would look like Ommin right before his death. As you suggest that he doesn't have bones, this must mean he has an exosceleton, which would be an argument for my side. Why? Because, in relation, most exosceletons appearing in nature are more durable and heavier than human bones. Which would make it even harder for Kun to put his fingers right through the Chancellors skull and lift him up with one arm.

Yeah, you 'really just don't see it' because you ignore any evidence to the contrary, puff up anything Kun has to absurd levels while downplaying any Mace or Dooku possess. Keepgoing on and on how SPESHUL AND AWSUM Kun's style is while totally ignoring that not only is there nothing said to be unique whatsoever- both have seen DBLs anddual phase sabers were around in their time- but their styles are utterly unfamiliar to Kun who has never encountered a curved hilt saber or, it goes without saying, Vaapad.

Oh my god. Stop it, Lightsnake. I will laugh myself to death if I read any more accusations from you, that I hand out biased arguments. There is nothing special about Kun's style? How many people are constantly altering length and intensity of their blades in combat while wielding a short-hilt design DBL around with one hand? Come on. Since you claim that there is nothing unique about Kun's style, you must have a list containing some people who do that. Post it or shut up.

And sorry, Lightsnake. Using your own logic: Makashi as well as Juyo where also around in Kun's time and because of that, he will have no problems recognizing the styles, despite probably never seen them.

In a saber fight, Kunny boy gets his ponytailed ass kicked and he's too arrogant and stupid to avoid one.

Can somebody please place another mark on the Lightsnake bias statements board? Are we talking about the same Kun here that tells Ulic not to attack Coruscant because pursuing a greater plan? Are we talking about the same Kun that talks 20 people into joining his cause, tricking them and the same Kun that sent Aleema Keto on a suicide-mission as punishment for her betrayal of Ulic - which she didn't figure out until it was too late? Are we talking about the same Kun that devised a plan that exterminated some of the orders most powerful Jedi through assassination? The same Kun that kept Ulic who "spread death on a genocidal level" across the universe as his personal *****? Sure thing pal. The guy is certainly stupid and arrogant, yes.

Because he entered a saber fight how often? Oh right. With Ulic, maybe because his opponent was wielding another Sith Amulet which are known for boosting people's force defence. And against Vodo...because he was toying with the Jedi master. That aside? He force rapes anybody else. So unless Mace or Dooku are wearing Sith amulets nowadays or happen to have a personal relationship to Kun, I don't see any why he wouldn't simply rip them apart with the force. An idea that violates the basic idea behind Versus fights totally. Using your logic, Luke will lose every VS fight because of either not wanting to hurt lightsiders or wanting to redeem Dark Siders.

Not only that, but he's shown absolutely nada to make anyone believe he's on the levels of the other three with the Force besides maybe stalemating Ulic. And even that's not nearly enough.

Yay. With the exception of his work in Sith alchemy, his mind control / freeze action in the Senate and him pwning a force ghosts, a giant Sith beast and draining an entire race of individuals. Yup. In fact neither Mace nor Dooku have demonstrated anything close to Exar Kun in terms of force ability. Leaves saber combat (if Kun decides to not annihilate his opponent on the spot using his amulet or Sith magic).

Your interpretation:

So no. Kun and Bane ignite sabers, Mace or Dooku kill him and then team up on Bane providing Mace hasn't killed him by that point.

Mind you. You're still assuming that it's somehow easier to cope with an unfamiliar weapon wielded in a completely unfamiliar style (Kun) and a lightsaber resistant armor (Bane) than with a slighty altered blade design (Dooku) and a style that is derived from known forms plus the ability to spot weaknesses in an opponents defence (Mace).

As I view it, the first one to die here is Dooku, regardless of whom he encounters. Next is Mace getting double-teamed. And this is already following your interpretation that none of the participants would even attempt a force attack.

Originally posted by Borbarad
[B]Your interpretations of facts are amazing. Cars are commonly used in our time, which must mean every human being is capable of driving. Oh wait. That's not the case.

How does it matter that dual-phase blades were used in Dooku's time. Hell. Who did use a dual-phase lightsaber in that time exactly? Name some beings. Oh stop it, Lightsnake. It's specifically mentioned that those kinds of sabers where "rare" and completely "out of style" in the PT era. So why would Dooku be familiar with them?

And the intensity switching allows Kun to make opponents sabers pass through his own blade, which is not only outclassing any regular lightsaber in terms of "lowest possible intensity", but also a technique never employed in combat before or after Kun. But Dooku would also be familiar with that correct. And in turn...

Ah, yes. In turn, a slightly modified hilt-design, which allows more precise movements is teh uber advantage.

Yeah. Zannah notes that a completely enraged Bane put no effort into his defense.

Going berserk doesn't appear his regular behavior in lightsaber fights. And if he really didn't need to put any effort into his defense, he simply can't be hit. Yet he's obviously very well able to do it, if needed, going by the fact that he survived the onslaught Kas'im unleashed at him before receiving his orbalisks.

ROFL. How freaking deluded must somebody be to compare those statements? May I remind you that, when Yoda gave those statements about Dooku, the latter had already spent 8 decades as a force user and had already become a Sith Lord. Vodo gives the comment about Kun after the lecturing him on how he did not even finish his lightsaber training yet only minutes earlier.

Really, Lightsnake. You, the probably most biased person as far as Ancient Sith characters are concerned, dare to claim that your analysis is "honest"? Hilarious. Apparently you somehow have forgotten that Kun walked straight through Aleema's attack without even being affected.

So he can boast as much as he wants. That mere fact shows that he's leagues above her in terms of Sith knowledge. Which is not even mentioning his other exploits in that field (e.g. freezing or mind-controlling the entire Senate) and Sith Alchemy.

Can you please leave your biased interpretations out of it? Thanks.

The book specifically state that "every single defense Yoda has taught him" fails againt Kun's attack.

Of course he might have resisted it due to sheer power if Kyp hasn't attacked him at the same time - yet he still didn't know any defense against it.

Pardon me if I'm vastly unimpressed by the personal view of "Mr.Bias" about pre-PT era characters. I know that you have moved your head so deep into Sidious anus, that you can't see anything left and right, but please don't bother the rest of us with your opinion - because nobody gives a flying ducky about it.

Sure thing, pal. Things just materialized out of thin air in Kun's time.

Apparently the New Essential Chronology disagrees with you because it says that the Dark Reaper was constructed by the Sith during the Great Sith War. So who the hell, if not Kun himself, should have done that? Ulic Qel-Droma? Or one of Kun's Sith-spirit-controlled Dark Jedi?

And yes. The Terentateks also appeared out of thin air, because the great Lightsnake says so.

It's just coincidence that the Jedi developed the idea to hunt them down with a galaxy-wide series of events right after the death of Exar Kun.[/Quot]e
Yeah, because it's not like they appear in greater numbers when the Dark Side is at an apex. They also appeared in greater numbers around the reigns of Revan, Malak and Palpatine, too.

[Quote]
Oh. Dooku had more sources? Name some. Specify their content in comparision to the stuff Kun had. Really. Dooku had his Jedi training and limited access to one Sith Holocron, aside of that the had access to whatever Sidious might have given him.

Kun also had his Jedi Training,

adding the complete knowledge of Sadow, who had centuries to study the Dark Side and whatever he took from Ossus.

Even if we ignore the latter, Kun still had access to the knowledge of the most accomplished Sith Magician / Alchemist we've seen in the saga so far. So I wonder how Dooku's knowledge is compareable to that.

Erm. How do you descripe Kun's confrontation with Sadow's Sith creature on Yavin 4? I'd call that a fight, but according to you it must be something different because Kun never used the amulet in a fight, correct?

Same thing with Kun annihilating Nadds spirit. No fight?

And somebody capable of disabling it? Really, Lightsnake. Show me the being in the SW universe able to block force energies that annihilated half a dozen of human size Massassi on the spot with apparent ease and blast through giant creatures as well as walls.

The list of people capable to deal with such energy levels is rather short, and I don't see Dooku or Mace being on said list.

I must have missed the fact that you happen to be the LFL employee responsible for canon displayed in comics now, Lightsnake. I've just sided what can be seen in the comics. Does it make sense to you that Mace switches his weapon hand when fighting Sidious? No? He does. Why? Do you want to write that off as an "artist error" too?

Then we can stop all discussions here because everything not fitting into somebodies opinion will be an cartoonist / writer / director mistake from now on.

Excuse me, Lightsnake. They are both pointing their blasters at Kun who is unarmed in that situation. One of them on almost point blank range. The only thing compareable in the saga happens in the opening sequence of RotS, when Obi-Wan and Anakin are forced backwards by the droidekas into the elevator filled with battle droids. Yet they, unlike Kun, still had their weapons in hand and all opponents in direct melee range. Kun had to draw his weapon and ignite it before he was capable of doing anything.

And really. Get over your damn bias against pre-PT-era characters. Going by your logic, every Jedi or Sith in the saga is on one level with Johun, because they all have been descriped with similar words during combat. [/B]

Oh, and no, I'll continue to argue against your ponytailed deity as much as I see fit.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I must have missed the freaking time stamps on the comic pages because, unlike you, I don't know how long the duel lasted. Yet I also haven't seen some non-force-user who managed to survive against an enraged Jedi in melee combat for even a brief time period. Normally people die within seconds when confronting force users - especially enraged ones.

As I view it, the first one to die here is Dooku, regardless of whom he encounters. Next is Mace getting double-teamed. And this is already following your interpretation that none of the participants would even attempt a force attack.

And my interpretation is based on the fact that Bane just bulls into a fight without using the Force at first and Kun never even bothers and just ignites the saber.

So, in the end? Try again, Nai.

Crap. I posted in the wrong thread!