Originally posted by Faunus
When augmented by Worror's battle meditation and with Farfalla using all of his power to provide her with Force-support, Bane's attack still flattened her against a wall. While that speaks more to Bane's immense power than Raskta's relative weakness, it indicates clearly that she isn't a match on any level for a superior Force-user. Dooku is probably the third most powerful being alive in the PT era; he would still crush her.
I thought Skywalker was more powerful..
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Greater showings, for one. Context, textual backing, too
Such as?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He was heading the CIS when he was eighty. He'd been a dedicated Jedi student for a massive, massive part of his long life
Wow okay. Thanks for skipping half of what I said. "Or the fact that he was studying diplomacy and signed up for a Senate intern kind of thing before he even became a padawan. He was, "political idealist, not a terrorist" (Ki-Adi Mundi, ep2). " Hopefully you will respond to it this time.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Probably. Of course one could make the argument she's adequate on her own against people not on Bane or Dooku's tier
Well, she was described as virtually inept, so I'm not so sure.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The fact that he was known as a political idealist is there to dispel LS's claim that he didn't care about politics.
He said Dooku disdained it- not that he ignored it:
Disdain
–verb (used with object)
1. to look upon or treat with contempt; despise; scorn.
Just because he didn't like it does not mean that he ignored it.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Such as?
Wow okay. Thanks for skipping half of what I said. "Or the fact that he was studying diplomacy and signed up for a Senate intern kind of thing before he even became a padawan. He was, "political idealist, not a terrorist" (Ki-Adi Mundi, ep2). " Hopefully you will respond to it this time.
Well, she was described as virtually inept, so I'm not so sure.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well the 'One of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history' who only became stronger as a Sith comes to mind. Giving Raskta her due, but looking at Dooku, who was still able to engage Mace Windu, was far better than Grievous, who bested Tholme and Sora Bulq at once...there's a lot.
One of the most powerful doesn't equate to crazy saber skills. His are really good, but he's not that far up because of them alone. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, ROTS Anakin, ect could take Lsu (I'll just for now on for brevity) because of her inability to defend herself from Force attacks. Other didn't go with her to do that for no reason.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I didn't ignore. Thing is, Dooku was much older than raskta and had far more time to devote. Yes, he served in politics, but he hated politics, he hated the Senate and he hated the corruption. He devoted himself heavily to mastery of the Force and the saber....with decades upon decades to hone his skills in the latter two. And that was his passion. He was legend and apparently mastered numerous forms given that he taught them to Grievous. It's obvious he dedicated himself to his abilities as much, if not more than he did his political abilities. Likely far more
Dooku didn't hate politics. He hated Republic politics, which is why he made his own. I'd say he loved politics because we know that he chose to join Jedi stuff with the Senate before he even became a Knight.
Mastery of the Force, yes. Mastery of Makashi, yes again. Mastery of all forms and practice to the same level of Kas'im or Lsu, nope.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
She's still probably a powerful Jedi. Likely she's just not as capable with the Force in that way.
Which is why she isn't that capable of a Jedi when on her own. She needed to be part of a team to effectively fight Force users.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
One of the most powerful doesn't equate to crazy saber skills. His are really good, but he's not that far up because of them alone. Yoda, Mace, Dooku, ROTS Anakin, ect could take Lsu (I'll just for now on for brevity) because of her inability to defend herself from Force attacks. Other didn't go with her to do that for no reason.
Dooku didn't hate politics. He hated Republic politics, which is why he made his own. I'd say he [b]loved politics because we know that he chose to join Jedi stuff with the Senate before he even became a Knight.
Mastery of the Force, yes. Mastery of Makashi, yes again. Mastery of all forms and practice to the same level of Kas'im or Lsu, nope.
Which is why she isn't that capable of a Jedi when on her own. She needed to be part of a team to effectively fight Force users. [/B]
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Their saber skills would give her a run for their money. Thing is, Raskta's skills and speed are things Dooku would be good against and his skills are given a lot.
They certainly would, but I think she's above any of them in purely saber skill, even if only by a small margin.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
It was his dose of idealism and vision for the galaxy there, however. He certainly loathed the political wranglings with the Republic which compromised most of it. The CIS was nothing more than a glorified smokescreen
There is the fact that he started with the Senate at like ten years old. It definitely took up a fair portion of his time.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Who do you think trained Grievous in them? Dooku is an absolute god of Makashi, but he's proficient in numerous other forms. Dooku is also very familiar with other forms, enough to instantly recognize Soresu, Shien, Djem So, intimate familiarity with Ataru and quite some familiarity with Juyo/Vaapad.
Absolute god? I'd say a bit of hyperbole there. He has knowledge of the forms, yes, but so does anyone who practiced Niman. The ability to recognize them doesn't mean he's good with them. Nor does teaching Grevious.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Pretty much. But even in saber skills, Dooku is a top tier fighter, same as her.
I'm not contesting that it'd be close, but I definitely think she'd win.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They certainly would, but I think she's above any of them in purely saber skill, even if only by a small margin.
There is the fact that he started with the Senate at like ten years old. It definitely took up a fair portion of his time.
Absolute god? I'd say a bit of hyperbole there. He has knowledge of the forms, yes, but so does anyone who practiced Niman. The ability to recognize them doesn't mean he's good with them. Nor does teaching Grevious.
I'm not contesting that it'd be close, but I definitely think she'd win.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Than Yoda? Than Mace? Seriously, now. Raskta devoting time bordering on obsession does not make he better.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So it's a division between 'politics, Force and saber.' We know he put in a huge time to the saber.He has knowledge enough to teach them to Grievous for Grievous to master. He's a legendary saber instructor and he knows how to combat the forms beautifully
Originally posted by Lightsnake
She's showed us very little to give that indication.
Lsu may not be able to best the Count, especially when considering that he was "among the best of the 2500 year history of the Order." (please check the number) She will not win, but it will be a very tough fight, and by no means a guaranteed win for Dooku.
Originally posted by Red NemesisI can't contest this, but she is a stellar swordsbeing that was able to give Bane pause while in his armor. That has to count for something.
I can not support any argument that attempts to marginalize Dooku's skill, which is legendary. He was a master swordsman, who happened to be a politician. To disagree is to misrepresent the Count's skill.
She has been shown to contend with Bane's absurd strength, and her Jar'Kai would at least put the Count on unfamiliar terrain.
She has unique advantages (cleaving through the weak Dark Jedi of her time) that give her a unique insight into how the Dark Side may be applied in a combat situation- her dueling experience will be applicable in a fight with Dooku, even if it is not in and of itself enough to tip the scales. Her chosen form (dual wield) is the antithesis of the Count, yet it is backed by a similar skill. She was able to stand alone against Darth Bane- something I'd be willing to call a challenge for Dooku.
Lsu may not be able to best the Count, especially when considering that he was "among the best of the 2500 year history of the Order." (please check the number) She will not win, but it will be a very tough fight, and by no means a guaranteed win for Dooku. [/B]
Without offensive Force-kinesis, it would be a great fight and could well go either way. However I'd still put my money on Raskta.
For one thing she's much stronger and fitter. Dooku's vitality in combat is all from the Force and he notes in the RotS novel, "The dark power that served him went only so far." He'll tire out before she will.
Also, while there's no question that Dooku was a swordmaster who devoted much time to it, the fact remains that he was a political idealist, and so would have had to focus quite a bit on that as well. Raskta, by contrast, "eschewed all other fields of study" and was almost fanatically devoted to blade mastery in order to live up to her namesake. Not questioning Dooku's devotion to swordsmanship, but I'd say she was more 'driven' than him.
Plus, as noted, she stood alone against Bane. True, she had Worrer's Battle Meditation, but Bane had the orbalisks powering him up (as well as giving him near-complete invulnerability).
BTW: I'd say Raskta could probably block Force attacks from Sith of 'average' power (such as the BoD members), since Jedi learn how to counter Force-kinesis before they even start lightsabre training. Being unable to block a Force-kinesis attack from a Bane pumped up on orbalisks is no shame.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Without offensive Force-kinesis, it would be a great fight and could well go either way. However I'd still put my money on Raskta.For one thing she's much stronger and fitter. Dooku's vitality in combat is all from the Force and he notes in the RotS novel, "The dark power that served him went only so far." He'll tire out before she will.
Also, while there's no question that Dooku was a swordmaster who devoted much time to it, the fact remains that he was a political idealist, and so would have had to focus quite a bit on that as well. Raskta, by contrast, "eschewed all other fields of study" and was almost fanatically devoted to blade mastery in order to live up to her namesake. Not questioning Dooku's devotion to swordsmanship, but I'd say she was more 'driven' than him.
Plus, as noted, she stood alone against Bane. True, she had Worrer's Battle Meditation, but Bane had the orbalisks powering him up (as well as giving him near-complete invulnerability).
BTW: I'd say Raskta could probably block Force attacks from Sith of 'average' power (such as the BoD members), since Jedi learn how to counter Force-kinesis before they even start lightsabre training. Being unable to block a Force-kinesis attack from a Bane pumped up on orbalisks is no shame.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Than Yoda? Than Mace? Seriously, now. Raskta devoting time bordering on obsession does not make he better.
Not alone, but she's shown herself to the extent that it's definitely possible that she's better.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So it's a division between 'politics, Force and saber.' We know he put in a huge time to the saber.
And she put all her time to the saber.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He has knowledge enough to teach them to Grievous for Grievous to master. He's a legendary saber instructor and he knows how to combat the forms beautifully
She's legendary as well. She has mastered them as a whole to a higher extent. I have technically mastered the piano, in that I know how to play anything on it, but I am not as good as Mozart, because I can play anything, but I can't play it as well.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
She's showed us very little to give that indication.
Quality over quantity, my friend.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not alone, but she's shown herself to the extent that it's definitely possible that she's better.
And she put all her time to the saber.
She's legendary as well. She has mastered them as a whole to a higher extent.
I have technically mastered the piano, in that I know how to play anything on it, but I am not as good as Mozart, because I can play anything, but I can't play it as well.
Quality over quantity, my friend.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please find me a quote demonstrating Raskta's mastery of every form and style.
No such quote exists...
I get it- you are pointing that out by using a leading question... tricky.
The only thing I could find was "she switched styles seamlessly" which does not guarantee mastery over all of the forms, but does indicate at least two.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Please find me a quote demonstrating Raskta's mastery of every form and style.
"She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master."
"Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsabre combat."
Note "the forms." Not 'some of the forms.' All of them.