The Deceitful 'Contract' of Free Will

God is completely sovereign. We do not have a free will. All men are slaves to sin and are incapable of doing any good. To say than men have a free will is impossible because only one can truly have a free will and that is God.

Everyone deserves to go to hell. God doesn’t have to save anyone. He does not owe us salvation. But according to God’s almighty will He reveals Himself to those He chooses. It is out of His grace that He makes Himself known to His elect. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can man do good.

If Jesus died for everyone and not everyone goes to heaven than his death was worthless. It would ultimately make our own "free will" the final determiner of our salvation. This directly contradicts God's sovereignty through His predestination.

Salvation is not of man but a gift from the Almighty God.

Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

John 6:37-39 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually."

Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth."

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God."

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Just because you reject the help that was offered...

How did the prophets help me?
How did Jesus help me?
How did the Holy Spirit help me?
How id the church help me?

The answer is nothing, none of these things did anything that my parents couldn't do. My parents did more to teach me wrong and right, showed me how to be a good person more than any of them have ever done. If the church is an example of how "holy" these others are then they are doing a poor job at it and since I can't ask any of the others they are the only representatives of them.

Another way to look at this free will garbage is that God says that you can live your life and think how you want but there is only ONE right way to live your life. Now how is this free will if there is only one way? Why can I not be a good person, do not kill, steal and follow all the other commandments except follow God but still be condemned to hell for all time? I get 9/10 right but I'm still doomed, so basically it is live your life any way that you want but you are going to suffer for all time if you don't do it my way. Even man is not that cruel.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
And what help was that? To be taken into a back room and be raped by a priest? I could do without that kind of help.

How did the prophets help me?
How did Jesus help me?
How did the Holy Spirit help me?
How id the church help me?

The answer is nothing, none of these things did anything that my parents couldn't do. My parents did more to teach me wrong and right, showed me how to be a good person more than any of them have ever done. If the church is an example of how "holy" these others are then they are doing a poor job at it and since I can't ask any of the others they are the only representatives of them.

Another way to look at this free will garbage is that God says that you can live your life and think how you want but there is only ONE right way to live your life. Now how is this free will if there is only one way? Why can I not be a good person, do not kill, steal and follow all the other commandments except follow God but still be condemned to hell for all time? I get 9/10 right but I'm still doomed, so basically it is live your life any way that you want but you are going to suffer for all time if you don't do it my way. Even man is not that cruel.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

It is impossible for us to earn our own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God to those He predetermined to go to heaven. We are all born into sin and are incapable of doing any good by ourselves. God gave us His law first of all to show us how sinful we are and to show us that we need a savior. Secondly God gave us the law so that believers could obey it through the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but to show their gratitude to God for His grace on them.

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

Originally posted by Gannon
You are looking at salvation like it is up to man to save himself by using his own "free will" to choose heaven or hell. This is the flaw of free will that leads so many people astray because they think that if they keep God's commands they will somehow earn eternal life. This idea of works righteousness is contradictory to the Bible and a huge flaw in modern mainstream Christianity.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

It is impossible for us to earn our own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God to those He predetermined to go to heaven. We are all born into sin and are incapable of doing any good by ourselves. God gave us His law first of all to show us how sinful we are and to show us that we need a savior. Secondly God gave us the law so that believers could obey it through the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but to show their gratitude to God for His grace on them.

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

I always loved this stance.

Why not go crazy and have gay pedophilic murder orgies under the "salvation is predetermined" model?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I always loved this stance.

Why not go crazy and have gay pedophilic murder orgies under the "salvation is predetermined" model?

Even you have to accept why you include "gay" in the categories of pedophile and murderer.

Originally posted by Devil King
Even you have to accept why you include "gay" in the categories of pedophile and murderer.

It's something that evangelicals and fundamentalists feel is morally wrong. Based on the amount of time the spend on it rather than anything else in the Bible they must see it as at least as bad as murder. Pedophilia is just the icing on the dead sodomized baby cake.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's something that evangelicals and fundamentalists feel is morally wrong. Based on the amount of time the[y] spend on it rather than anything else in the Bible they must see it as at least as bad as murder. Pedophilia is just the icing on the dead sodomized baby cake.

Perhaps for the objectionable members of the demographic you have found yourself a part of, but what does it mean to you? Are you accepting, like Christ himself? Or are you one of those people who ignores the reality of Chirst's own words in the gospels in favor of being the hate monger that The Christ, himself, spent his entire life preaching against?

Originally posted by Devil King
Perhaps for the objectionable members of the demographic you have found yourself a part of, but what does it mean to you? Are you accepting, like Christ himself? Or are you one of those people who ignores the reality of Chirst's own words in the gospels in favor of being the hate monger that The Christ, himself, spent his entire life preaching against?

I rarely care what anyone does unless it effects me. And despite the quote in my sig (which is from a great country song about how his faith is one of acceptance not rejection) I'm not a Christian, just raised as one from 5 to 15.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I rarely care what anyone does unless it effects me. And despite the quote in my sig (which is from a great country song about how his faith is one of acceptance not rejection) I'm not a Christian, just raised as one from 5 to 15.

No human being cares, realistically, unless it effects them. I applaud your willingness to be a chiristian in faith and not a christian is name only. We would all like to put the words of "God" or "Jesus" or Duh! Reality!" into effect. I'm sure this is why you have supported Democrats for the last 7 months. But it goes further than that. I'm sure you understand that. Love of God and patriotism aren't subservient or seperate to the idea of an intelligent understanding of god who is capable of evolving with time. I have an idea or reality and faith, not one of which is observed, recognized or understood by the majority of those who make the rules. However, I appreciate the possibliity of that existing in a world that might exist without me or anyone else. I'm not arrogant enough to assume I'm the only one to figure this all out, or my corner of it, simply because I ascribe to an idea of certainty in my interpretation of the afterlife.

I was raised as one from .10 to 16. After that, I said: Hold Up! Something isn't Kosher, here!"

Originally posted by Gannon
You are looking at salvation like it is up to man to save himself by using his own "free will" to choose heaven or hell. This is the flaw of free will that leads so many people astray because they think that if they keep God's commands they will somehow earn eternal life. This idea of works righteousness is contradictory to the Bible and a huge flaw in modern mainstream Christianity.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

It is impossible for us to earn our own salvation. Salvation is a gift from God to those He predetermined to go to heaven. We are all born into sin and are incapable of doing any good by ourselves. God gave us His law first of all to show us how sinful we are and to show us that we need a savior. Secondly God gave us the law so that believers could obey it through the Holy Spirit, not to earn salvation, but to show their gratitude to God for His grace on them.

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."

So do you believe in Calvinism, it sounds like it since you say that certain people are already predetermined to go to heaven. So I guess it doesn't make a bit of difference if I believe or not because God has already decided what is going to happen to me which makes more scene with the concept of an all seeing god.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I always loved this stance.

Why not go crazy and have gay pedophilic murder orgies under the "salvation is predetermined" model?

Most people think that doing good works is a way to earn salvation. However this is impossible because we are completely sinful and incapable of doing any good without God. After being born again our motivation to do good works is not to earn salvation, because Jesus already did that for us on the cross, but we do good works out of thankfulness to God for our salvation. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can we do good works.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
First of all the whole concept of free will in the eyes of God is laughable because there is no free will when you are dealing with an all seeing, all knowing being. He would all ready know what you will do before you do it. The other notion that you are guilt until proven innocent concept with God is crazy, how come we must prove ourselves to a being that already knows us better than we would ever know ourselves? God doesn't answer all of our prayers because he knows what is best for us and what we truly need so that mean that he knows more about us then we do, therefore he would know if we are worthy to go to heaven long before we were ever born, after all did he not create us and put our souls in our bodies?

So do you believe in Calvinism, it sounds like it since you say that certain people are already predetermined to go to heaven. So I guess it doesn't make a bit of difference if I believe or not because God has already decided what is going to happen to me which makes more scene with the concept of an all seeing god.

There are two aspects of free will:
1. A free will to do whatever you want without any outside force imposing on that will. This is the free will that only God has.

or

2. A will freed from the bonds of sin to do good only through God's grace. This is the free will that we receive after being born again.

Originally posted by Gannon
Because God saves his people from sin unto good works. It wouldn't make sense for God to save people so that they could continue in sin.

Most people think that doing good works is a way to earn salvation. However this is impossible because we are completely sinful and incapable of doing any good without God. After being born again our motivation to do good works is not to earn salvation, because Jesus already did that for us on the cross, but we do good works out of thankfulness to God for our salvation. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can we do good works.

But nothing that we do effects salvation. There's no reason (except some idiotic concept of altruism) to do anything good or avoid doing anything evil in your system. God is irrelevant if salvation is predetermined so why believe?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But nothing that we do effects salvation. There's no reason (except some idiotic concept of altruism) to do anything good or avoid doing anything evil in your system. God is irrelevant if salvation is predetermined so why believe?

Ephesians 2 This is directed towards His church:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Originally posted by Gannon
Because God saves his people from sin unto good works. It wouldn't make sense for God to save people so that they could continue in sin.

Most people think that doing good works is a way to earn salvation. However this is impossible because we are completely sinful and incapable of doing any good without God. After being born again our motivation to do good works is not to earn salvation, because Jesus already did that for us on the cross, but we do good works out of thankfulness to God for our salvation. Only through the work of the Holy Spirit can we do good works.

Yes, God is sovereign meaning He is in complete control of every aspect of all creation. Everything that happens is according to His perfect will. The purpose of all that happens is to display God's attributes. He elects some people for heaven to display His love and grace and some for hell to display His perfect wrath.

There are two aspects of free will:
1. A free will to do whatever you want without any outside force imposing on that will. This is the free will that only God has.

or

2. A will freed from the bonds of sin to do good only through God's grace. This is the free will that we receive after being born again.

Originally posted by Gannon
Salvation is not of our own merit but of the grace of God. God gives us grace by doing good works through Him. The reason we do good works isn't to earn salvation but to glorify God for His grace to us through Jesus.

Ephesians 2 This is directed towards His church:

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Why not be a secular humanist or something equally disgusting?

Originally posted by Gannon
Salvation is not of our own merit but of the grace of God. God gives us grace by doing good works through Him.

So god sits around taking credit for all the good things we do? Sounds like a sweet deal for an all powerful being.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
How would God making us so that we believe in him have to deal with our choices of day to day life?

God does not "deal" with our daily decisions, but "permits." Hence, free will.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
You can still live where you want, marry the woman that you want and do the job that you want. You can see the movies, eat and do everything that you still do now but the only difference is that you believe in him. you can still follow the type of Christan faith but you still believe in God and Christ therefore you are not going to suffer for all time in Hell.

Correct! But a Christian has repented; they no longer live a sinful life in "denial." Christians understand the nature sin and want nothing to do with it. Christians wish to serve God and live by His laws. Christians do this out of love. Christians understand that God is everything, and without Him, nothing matters. "Oh my Lord Jesus Christ... please forgive me," is the end result. Christians have free will. Christians "choose" to live a Godly life. Others live in denial and/or pride, chasing instant gratification.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
How about looking at it this way, just as a child is born the parents are responsible to teach them, show them how not to get hurt and teach them right from wrong.

Morality is not taught; parents only help influence and/or direct healthy habits -- social norms. Hence, culture! Gangbangers and Priests are fully aware of God's laws, despite parenting "habits!" Morality is written in our hearts -- our very being. We are made in the image of God (knowing right from wrong). Otherwise, God's punishment is unjust.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
The child doesn't have its free will to make its own decisions until it has grown up and can make decisions for them selves.

Incorrect. Children do have free will! But children are not held accountable. Children are in the process of developing mentally and physically. God's judgement is fair.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Parents just don't hand a book to a 1 year old and say this is all that you need to know now go out and be a good person,

I certainly hope not, ha ha!

Originally posted by Da Pittman
they personaly teach the child unlike what God has done for us.

Not true. Again, God's laws are written in our hearts, and that is why so many people reject God. They live in denial and/or pride. We are made in the image of God; we instinctively understand right from wrong. Such is not taught.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Now before you go and say that kids and adults are different, we are just 1 year olds compared to God.

Sure... in terms of power, intelligence and beauty.

Originally posted by ushomefree
God does not "deal" with our daily decisions, but "permits." Hence, free will.

Correct! But a Christian has repented; they no longer live a sinful life in "denial." Christians understand the nature sin and want nothing to do with it. Christians wish to serve God and live by His laws. Christians do this out of love. Christians understand that God is everything, and without Him, nothing matters. "Oh my Lord Jesus Christ... please forgive me," is the end result. Christians have free will. Christians "choose" to live a Godly life. Others live in denial and/or pride, chasing instant gratification.

Morality is not taught; parents only help influence and/or direct healthy habits -- social norms. Hence, culture! Gangbangers and Priests are fully aware of God's laws, despite parenting "habits!" Morality is written in our hearts -- our very being. We are made in the image of God (knowing right from wrong). Otherwise, God's punishment is unjust.

Incorrect. Children do have free will! But children are not held accountable. Children are in the process of developing mentally and physically. God's judgement is fair.

I certainly hope not, ha ha!

Not true. Again, God's laws are written in our hearts, and that is why so many people reject God. They live in denial and/or pride. We are made in the image of God; we instinctively understand right from wrong. Such is not taught.

Sure... in terms of power, intelligence and beauty.

Just some things, morality IS taught plain and simple.

Da Pittman... help me understand. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever been wronged, in your life? I know you have, but explain, please. Why did you feel as if you'd been "wronged"?

Originally posted by ushomefree
Da Pittman... help me understand. Let me ask you a question: Have you ever been wronged, in your life? I know you have, but explain, please. Why did you feel as if you'd been "wronged"?